Fahrenheit 9/11 : Did you see it and if you did what do you think about it ?

[limerickman]

The question I pose - is why would someone be so angry ?
Why, when an opposing view is expressed, would somone who claims to be happy, fill his posts with anger ?
There is something underlining that anger.
There is something that underlines Zappers total intolerance of not only the views from a foreign perspective, but also the views expressed from his fellow citizens.

It is hypocritical to call Zapper intolerant in light of your own intolerance. This is a path that would be 'expedient' for you.

Let's explore your suggestion for a moment.

I contend that Zapper is angry.
Not because he opposes my view - I base my judgement upon the reasons that he uses to oppose my views and the language that he uses to express those reasons why he opposes my view.

Throughout this entire thread and forum, we have asked Zapper to explain why he supports Bush.
I cannot derive that he is angry simply because he makes a statement saying he supports Bush.
I derive that he is angry because when he expresses the reasons why he supports Bush, his language is angry.

We are all intolerant of other people, Bikerman.
Whether you care to admit it or not - you, I and everyone else are intolerant.
This is the issue.
.

 

[Bikerman2004]

Let's explore your suggestion for a moment.

We are all intolerant of other people, Bikerman.
Whether you care to admit it or not - you, I and everyone else are intolerant.
This is the issue.

Yes let's do explore. You are the only one to post proof of your intolerance. Assumption of others intolerance is pure speculation on your part. Again, for you to call others intolerant makes you a hypocrite.

 

[zapper]

As you say it cannot be easy to be outgunned on all flanks and to keep your cool.

Another twist...Outgunned? By whom? You? Mr. peabody? Beasttsss?

 

[limerickman]

Yes let's do explore. You are the only one to post proof of your intolerance. Assumption of others intolerance is pure speculation on your part. Again, for you to call others intolerant makes you a hypocrite.

No, Biker - everyone is intolerant in some way.

I'm not asking you to admit it - because you won't admit it.

I, on the other hand, will admit my intolerance.

I think it's better to be honest to oneself and others.

 

[limerickman]

Another twist...Outgunned? By whom? You? Mr. peabody? Beasttsss?

You're outgunned on this Forum, Zapper.

 

[wadoflove]

No, Biker - everyone is intolerant in some way.

I'm not asking you to admit it - because you won't admit it.

I, on the other hand, will admit my intolerance.

I think it's better to be honest to oneself and others.

You have a point there...

 

[Bikerman2004]

No, Biker - everyone is intolerant in some way.

I'm not asking you to admit it - because you won't admit it.

I, on the other hand, will admit my intolerance.

I think it's better to be honest to oneself and others.

Classic Limerickman.........
I suppose we should congratulate you for admitting your intolerance. At least your an honest bigot. Classic. Try to twist the argument around. Again your assumption of others intolerance is just pure speculation on your part.

 

[wadoflove]

I like the way you change history before the war there was no one saying they never had (weapons of mass destruction).EVEN the UN thougth they did i love the way you come out NOW and tell lies

As for 2000 of figthing i am SURE there has been more wars in the middle east then else where

Even they (arabs) say what they want is for the inferdels (none muslim to covert) WAKE UP

Um, actually what I wrote was that the weapons inspectors were saying there were no weapons before the war. It is true that some people at the UN thought there were weapons of mass destruction, the American ambassador, the British Ambassador...

Please provide facts that indicate there were more wars in the Arab countries than the west over the past 2000 years. But don't forget during that time there were the Romans, all the wars between European countries, the crusades, the world wars, civil wars, wars of independance, genocide of native Americans, genocide of Jews, the European colonisation of Africa, North America, South America, Asia... in fact genocide is a totally western concept!

All religions want everyone else to recognise the superiority of their religion and convert or die. The Christians were really good at this sort of thing, even against other Christians! All religions have a history of violence against the non-believers. Muslim fundamentalists are no different, no better or worse than Jewish or Christian fundamentalists. They all deserve to rot in the Atheists version of hell (possibly located in Churchill Manitoba).

 

[zapper]

I admitted my view.
Therefore, I cared to admit.
I could have concealed my view.
I could have maintained a facade, but I didn't.
I admitted my view.
Zapper on the other hand tells us that he isn't angry.
Yet his posts are full of anger - despite his denials.
I think that Zapper has created a facade.
But that's his issue.
If he came out and said "yes, I am angry because I cannot stand......." I would give him credit for that.
But he doesn't - he says he's calm and happy.
His replies don't create the impression of someone who is happy.

Lim, I have refrained from replying directly to you on this subject for I feel betrayed in a way...I'm not sure why your fellow posters don't share that feeling. Lim, even though we hardly ever agree, I still felt that my opponent maintained a certain degree of integrity. I must confess I was shocked by your statement and when I heard it…I felt like I had just lost an old friend. I am even more perplexed that you are really trying to compare your perception of me being "angry" with your Racists remarks? I am not angry. Even when you make your remarks which apply to part of my family. I am not angry. I pity you mostly...

You have enjoyed much praise from liberal supporters here because of your views. Namely, your hatred for Bush. If anyone has displayed "hatred" here it is you. As I recall, prior to us "burying the hatchet", I told you to lighten up. This was after weeks of heated discussion. The next time you used those words... "Why all this defensiveness about asking if a name is Jewish, anyway?Are people not supposed to ask a question, if they don't know the answer. Lighten up, there. This was prompted when you posted this: "
Wiesse Luft - is this a Jewish name? How can asking if a name is Jewish be anti-Semetic ?"

But you lied. Didn't you? So don't try to put yourself on a pedestal and claim to take the high road by attempting to put spotlight on me and guessing that I am angry. That is complete rubbish. I find it even more appalling that Beastt makes the same argument...he/she defends you..

The fact is that I feel like everyone else here should feel...Betrayed. I took you to be a honest person. Although we never agreed on much, I enjoyed all of my debates with you. After you accused me of being disingenuous on numerous occasions, it turns out that you are a fraud. You and your stories of your Americans friends...I am a caricature??? Really...

I am honest and I don't mince any words here. Perhaps I even relay too much personal information about myself but I'm not ashamed of who I am. Beastt says you made One indiscretion...I went back and took a quick peek on one thread and found on numerous occasions you made a few subtle remarks...

So, thank you for coming clean, thanks you for finally telling the truth. I admire you for finally being honest. I admire you for trying to prevent from jeopardizing this thread. I do not however, admire you for trying to draw comparisons to your abhorrent revelations and your assumption that I am an angry person.. I'd prefer that we move on...We all know now that whenever you make reference to the U.S. as terrorist, or Bush a murderer or any one of us holding a double standard that your words in effect are meaningless for you are a living, breathing example of a double standard and this is very sad.

You have let a lot of people down...including yourself. That’s all I have to say about that.... I think that enough has been said about it…I am prepared to move on to more important issues and I hope that you would change you mind at some point in time.

 

[zapper]

Um, actually what I wrote was that the weapons inspectors were saying there were no weapons before the war. It is true that some people at the UN thought there were weapons of mass destruction, the American ambassador, the British Ambassador...

Don't stop there...Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards the list is endless...

 

[Weisse Luft]

No, Biker - everyone is intolerant in some way.

I'm not asking you to admit it - because you won't admit it.

I, on the other hand, will admit my intolerance.

I think it's better to be honest to oneself and others.

Yes, this is true but when one claims to dislike an ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE, he is a racist. A bigot.

Coming from a monocultural land, this is not hard to understand. You see, here in these United States of America, we have more diversity than you can ever imagine. We don't need any lecturing because for the past 200 years, we have been improving at rates the rest of the world can only dream of.

The level of interloping from other countries isn't surprising. You want us to fall. You want to get a piece of the pie. You wish you could be this strong. Its all jealousy. Its why you align yourself with the underdog. With the loser. Its why you rail against Lance Armstrong. Its why you hold an irrational dislkie for Israel.

The only thing that I have seen that come out of Ireland are entry level GPS units (funny how ALL satellites used by these systems are from where???), consumer-grade cyanoacrylate adhesive and potent potables. Oh yes, a few musicians. 10 yuears ago I was working with an Elscint MRI sytem. Out of Israel. Imagine that, the Israelis going head to head with General Electric. But I have yet to see an Irish MRI....

I'm sure you do not speak for the majority of Ireland but in your bigoted mind, you must surely think so.

 

[limerickman]

Lim, I have refrained from replying directly to you on this subject for I feel betrayed in a way...I'm not sure why your fellow posters don't share that feeling. Lim, even though we hardly ever agree, I still felt that my opponent maintained a certain degree of integrity. I must confess I was shocked by your statement and when I heard it…I felt like I had just lost an old friend. I am even more perplexed that you are really trying to compare your perception of me being "angry" with your Racists remarks? I am not angry. Even when you make your remarks which apply to part of my family. I am not angry. I pity you mostly...

You have enjoyed much praise from liberal supporters here because of your views. Namely, your hatred for Bush. If anyone has displayed "hatred" here it is you. As I recall, prior to us "burying the hatchet", I told you to lighten up. This was after weeks of heated discussion. The next time you used those words... "Why all this defensiveness about asking if a name is Jewish, anyway?Are people not supposed to ask a question, if they don't know the answer. Lighten up, there. This was prompted when you posted this: "
Wiesse Luft - is this a Jewish name? How can asking if a name is Jewish be anti-Semetic ?"

But you lied. Didn't you? So don't try to put yourself on a pedestal and claim to take the high road by attempting to put spotlight on me and guessing that I am angry. That is complete rubbish. I find it even more appalling that Beastt makes the same argument...he/she defends you..

The fact is that I feel like everyone else here should feel...Betrayed. I took you to be a honest person. Although we never agreed on much, I enjoyed all of my debates with you. After you accused me of being disingenuous on numerous occasions, it turns out that you are a fraud. You and your stories of your Americans friends...I am a caricature??? Really...

I am honest and I don't mince any words here. Perhaps I even relay too much personal information about myself but I'm not ashamed of who I am. Beastt says you made One indiscretion...I went back and took a quick peek on one thread and found on numerous occasions you made a few subtle remarks...

So, thank you for coming clean, thanks you for finally telling the truth. I admire you for finally being honest. I admire you for trying to prevent from jeopardizing this thread. I do not however, admire you for trying to draw comparisons to your abhorrent revelations and your assumption that I am an angry person.. I'd prefer that we move on...We all know now that whenever you make reference to the U.S. as terrorist, or Bush a murderer or any one of us holding a double standard that your words in effect are meaningless for you are a living, breathing example of a double standard and this is very sad.

You have let a lot of people down...including yourself. That’s all I have to say about that.... I think that enough has been said about it…I am prepared to move on to more important issues and I hope that you would change you mind at some point in time.

I haven't lied to anyone here with regard to the Bush/Kerry debate.

As regards my American friends - my American friends are in fact my relatives, who were here at my home.
The discussion of Bush came up in conversation and I told them about the debate here on this Forum and they decided that they wanted to read some posts.
After reading some posts - they said to me that they thought your posts were
taking the **** (pulling our legs or whatever expression you use).
I told them that no, you weren't pulling our legs, that you had expressed these views throughout our debate and my brother in law (a Republican) said that he thought you were a caricature.

From where I come from, we tend to call it as we see it.
It is not an offense to ask someone in this country, if they're Catholic, Protestant etc.
It might be offensive in the USA but it isn't so, here.

As regards the debate about Bush/Kerry, I have always been honest in my replies on this site.
The fact that I may be prejudiced on one specific issue doesn't impact whatsoever on the discussion of Bush/Kerry.
The Bush/Kerry debate is miles away from the specific issue that has brought about your reply.

The bottom line here is that we are all prejudiced in some way or other.
It is not a prerequisite for people to list their biases or opinions, to entitle them to state an opinion.

 

[limerickman]

Classic Limerickman.........
I suppose we should congratulate you for admitting your intolerance. At least your an honest bigot. Classic. Try to twist the argument around. Again your assumption of others intolerance is just pure speculation on your part.

No, I never asked you to congratulate me.

I asked you to consider being honest - everyone has a bias/intolerance.
Even you.

You chose not to admit it.

When it was put to me - I admitted it.
That's all.

 

[zapper]

I haven't lied to anyone here with regard to the Bush/Kerry debate.

This is a very noble retort... I'm sorry..When one lies the lines become blurred...Sometimes one doesn't realize that one is lying simply because one has been living a lie so long... I just having a hard time believing that one says...Well I'll just lie about how I feel towards a people but everything else out of my mouth is the truth...But you still don't get it.... Intolerance to name just one word...One word that you use quite frequently when lecturing US...Americans.... Yet, you apply a double standard.

As regards my American friends - my American friends are in fact my relatives, who were here at my home.
The discussion of Bush came up in conversation and I told them about the debate here on this Forum and they decided that they wanted to read some posts.
After reading some posts - they said to me that they thought your posts were
taking the **** (pulling our legs or whatever expression you use).
I told them that no, you weren't pulling our legs, that you had expressed these views throughout our debate and my brother in law (a Republican) said that he thought you were a caricature.

Well, tell your relatives to log on and speak for themselves...I assume they do have internet access. Secondly, your relatives...they share your same viewpoint concerning "intolerance?"

From where I come from, we tend to call it as we see it.

You must have suffered from amnesia for you covered it up for quite some time...

It is not an offense to ask someone in this country, if they're Catholic, Protestant etc.It might be offensive in the USA but it isn't so, here.

Once again you are applying your pretzel logic...You can't seem to quite get it.. This issue wasn't religion. and once again you are wrong. I don't want to discuss religion for obvious reasons...but suffice it to say my family is made up of at least 3 completely opposing forms...There is no persecution here in OUR country. Again you attempt to lecture us Americans on our Country..

The fact that I may be prejudiced on one specific issue doesn't impact whatsoever on the discussion of Bush/Kerry.

Sorry... but it does.

The bottom line here is that we are all prejudiced in some way or other. It is not a prerequisite for people to list their biases or opinions, to entitle them to state an opinion.

Yes you are almost correct. I am prejudiced in that I prefer brunettes over blondes that's why I married a brunette. I'm pedujuced that I think my Kid is the best player on the ball team. I'm prejudiced that prefer conservatives values over liberal values...There I said it..But when it comes to the issue with you, my family is much too diverse to have and prejudices of that nature and I was brought up to know better..Sorry....

 

[Bikerman2004]

No, I never asked you to congratulate me.

I asked you to consider being honest - everyone has a bias/intolerance.
Even you.

You chose not to admit it.

When it was put to me - I admitted it.
That's all.

It is interesting that you are twisting this into an honesty debate. When it is actually your credibility that is the issue. You have no credibility to question someone else's perceived intolerance. For you to question someone's intolerance is despicable.

 

[limerickman]

This is a very noble retort... I'm sorry..When one lies the lines become blurred...Sometimes one doesn't realize that one is lying simply because one has been living a lie so long... I just having a hard time believing that one says...Well I'll just lie about how I feel towards a people but everything else out of my mouth is the truth...But you still don't get it.... Intolerance to name just one word...One word that you use quite frequently when lecturing US...Americans.... Yet, you apply a double standard.....

Any or all of us could be lying here, Zapper.
No one can say if any of us are telling or not telling the truth, at any or all times, throughout this entire debate.
You could be a pathological liar for all I know.
I have no way of knowing whether you are or not.

.

Well, tell your relatives to log on and speak for themselves...I assume they do have internet access. Secondly, your relatives...they share your same viewpoint concerning "intolerance?"
....

Actually, they don't share my view at all.
We have discussed this matter many times.

You must have suffered from amnesia for you covered it up for quite some time.......

No - the fact that I have strong views about what Judaism represents - has nothing whatsoever got to do with Kerry/Bush.

Once again you are applying your pretzel logic...You can't seem to quite get it.. This issue wasn't religion. and once again you are wrong. I don't want to discuss religion for obvious reasons...but suffice it to say my family is made up of at least 3 completely opposing forms...There is no persecution here in OUR country. Again you attempt to lecture us Americans on our Country..
....

There is no presecution in my country either.
I never alleged that persecution took place in the USA.

It is also entirely your business as to what religious denomination you and your family follow.
That;s your business.

Unlike the USA - there is no politically correct stance that says we cannot
identify someone as Catholic, Protestant etc.

Yes you are almost correct. I am prejudiced in that I prefer brunettes over blondes that's why I married a brunette. I'm pedujuced that I think my Kid is the best player on the ball team. I'm prejudiced that prefer conservatives values over liberal values...There I said it..But when it comes to the issue with you, my family is much too diverse to have and prejudices of that nature and I was brought up to know better..Sorry....

We're all prejudiced in many ways as you say.
Some issues make people more or less prejudiced.

..But when it comes to the issue with you, my family is much too diverse to have and prejudices of that nature and I was brought up to know better..Sorry....

So you know better - do you ?

 

[limerickman]

It is interesting that you are twisting this into an honesty debate. When it is actually your credibility that is the issue. You have no credibility to question someone else's perceived intolerance. For you to question someone's intolerance is despicable.

Let me put this bluntly.

It is immaterial to me whether you think it despicable/great or indifferent.

I express my view - you express your view.

 

[Bikerman2004]

Let me put this bluntly.

It is immaterial to me whether you think it despicable/great or indifferent.

I express my view - you express your view.

Let me put in to you bluntly. You are a racist. A bigot. This forum has no place for your views. Go spit your venom elsewhere.

 

[zapper]

Any or all of us could be lying here, Zapper.
No one can say if any of us are telling or not telling the truth, at any or all times, throughout this entire debate.
You could be a pathological liar for all I know.
I have no way of knowing whether you are or not.

It is true you have no way of telling just like you have no way of telling if I'm smiling or if i"m angry...but you and Beastt insist you do. So which is it? Applying the double standard again are you?

But it is you who has been caught in a lie...The key term here is reputation. I have a reputation for being sarcastic, you and beastt may even say rude...But your reputation which once in certain circles may have been untarnished is now been dealt a serious blow. I'm really quite amazed that you continue to try to dig yourself out of the monstrous hole you have fallen into head first. Those guns you claim to have more of seem to be pointing right back at you....

 

[Beastt]

Another twist...Outgunned? By whom? You? Mr. peabody? Beasttsss?

By Limerickman, DavidMC, Myself, WadofLove? No, none of us and none of those I neglected to mention. You're outgunned by yourself, Zapper. You're constant flip-flops and the way you have to twist known positives to fit with your contrary opinions is what leaves you outgunned. I believe your side is outnumbered on this thread and perhaps, though purely subjective, the arguments against your views have shown more merit than those supporting your views. But you're outgunned because you lack the ability to debate from a calm platform, because your desire to believe in the president conflicts so completely with what you know to be right, because your own thoughts create as much turbulence in your mind as do the arguments presented to you.

Although I personally choose to refrain from using that term ["retard"] for there are mentally challenged folks out there who make up our society and they can't help their predicament. However, I know you are new to "name calling" and perhaps you need to work at building up your portfolio. I believe moron or perhaps imbecile would be more politically correct.

Flip: The word "retard" might be politically incorrect and offensive
Flop: The words "moron" and "imbecile" aren't politically incorrect

Flip:
"You opinion does not make me angry."
"I am not angry"

Flop:
"Do I have to spoon feed you everything..."
"the Liberal news outlets that you have your eyes and ears glued to"
"if you would remove your nostrils from your computer screen"
"going to vote for any bozo"
"I'm sure in your inept way"
"Yes, Einstein"
"you are the weakest link"
"one has to spell everything out to you in triplicate"
"You can sit there and turn blue and spit into the screen"
"should go tune into Christopher Lowell for some decorating tips"
"your nose shoved in a book of quotes"
"Look genius"
"let me get your spoon out for you"
"Goober"

The real telling comment here is "You can sit there and turn blue and spit into the screen". It's a displacement of your anger onto me and it's not the first time you've exposed that particular psychological anomaly to the thread. You assume I'm angry though nothing in my posts suggests any kind of anger. You simply cannot imagine how anyone could avoid being angered by the argument of the opposition because you are unable to debate without anger. You continue to attempt to stir anger in everyone with whom you take issue. You continue to be so blinded by your own rage that you fail to notice that people don't resort to anger at the hands of your abusive comments, and statements. It's simply not possible to take you seriously enough for anyone to become angered. The only victim of anger here is you and it ties you up in every response you make.

"Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain always cool and unruffled under all circumstances." ​

-- Thomas Jefferson​

​

I volunteered t o serve my country yes that is correct. I support my commander in chief, yes you are correct. I am patriotic. You are a patriot? Who are you to judge me. You have your nose shoved in a book of quotes. You would vote David duke, Marilyn Manson, Charles Manson whomever for president as long as it is not bush. Yes, you are a patriot.

Serving one's country is done by defending it. You're not defending the U.S. You and those who think as you do are the greatest threat the country has ever had to defend itself against. You seek to undermine the very ideals under which this country was formed and founded. There is little point in defending soil when all ideals founded upon and for that soil have been lost. You do support your commander as many Germans supported their commander when he chose to invade other countries which posed no real threat against Germany. Supporting any commander is only patriotic when that commander holds true to the values of the country. This is not he case under Bush.

Serving your country, is about defending rights and freedoms, not about taking them away, not about invasion and conquer. You seek to undermine the United States. Your uniform is a mockery because your thoughts, your ideals and your goals betray the country as has been shown in the stark contrast between what you believe to be correct and what the founding fathers used as the structural ideals of this country.

Who am I to judge you? I'm one of the millions of people who are losing our rights, the ones we were guaranteed as American citizens, due to your inability to separate loyalty to a political office from patriotic ideals. You serve to make a victim of every true, patriotic American. Anyone can don the uniform, Zapper. Like the flag, like the banner, it's just cloth. It's the thoughts in the mind that count. And your thoughts are a betrayal to that uniform.

Just how did this act get approved? McCain (R-AZ), Yea, Edwards (D-NC), Yea, Clinton (D-NY), Yea, Kerry (D-MA), Yea 98 to 1 Feingold (D-WI), Nay…Your presidential and Vice presidential candidates voted for it…

No one was talking about how it was approved. The comment was about your support of it. Nothing else. Trying to bleed the blame off onto others isnt' going to work. You have to be responsible for your misjudgements and let others be responsible for their's.

Regarding your continued attempts to paint Kerry in a worse light than Bush because he fought in a war; Kerry was following orders when he partook in search and destroy missions. Bush is issuing orders for search and destroy missions. It's not at all a subtle difference. I don't agree with the actions Kerry engaged in. I never will. But I do see the difference between fighting when being called to fight, and calling a fight to gain power and/or money.

Flip: I volunteered to serve my country, [fight in a war]
Flop: Kerry is evil because he fought in a war
Flip: Bush is honorable because he started a war