Zapper said:
Yes, some are trying to change the words to the pledge of allegiance ..i.e removing a phrase that would mention a deity. But wait...Our forefathers approved of this pledge...
Here's a little history for you, Zapper. The original pledge of allegiance made no mention of God. (jhuskey beat me to this, I see. Thank you, jhusky.
) The God part was added later as the country began to slip away from the original ideals. Perhaps too much is made about its inclusion, but the pledge is supposed to be about the nation - a nation that believes in religious freedom including the freedom not to believe in God, if one is so moved.
Zapper said:
John Adams:“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
]B]Samuel Adams[/B]“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
Benjamin Franklin:“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787
One might take this to mean that you believe God should be a mandated portion of every American's beliefs.
Politicians are not without their personal religious beliefs. That they would tend to use such references in political speeches is not to be unexpected. But on the very basis that government in American is founded with inclusion of the idea of freedom of religion, such references are clearly designed to collect the support of the majority as the majority of Americans believe in Christianity and some are actually Christians. People often fail to see violations of ideals when those violations are in their favor.
Zapper said:
Beastt said:
No one is claiming that the citizens are against church, only that church is a private, personal issue and has no place in publically funded programs such as the schools.
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
If you would have followed your back-tracking of the thread a bit further, Zapper, you would have noted that the exact wording from the Constitution was posted and upon reviewing that, I withdrew my comments concerning the use of schools for purposes of religiously based extra-curricular activities. But I do feel that one needs to weigh the idea of equal representation against that of the freedom of religion and make attempts not to utilize public funds, (i.e. tax monies), to support religious issues which do not represent all equally.
You have selectively chosen quotations which show how quickly and sometimes easily those foundations can be forgotten even by the men who helped to form them. I think we all understand the concept of freedom of religion and that of equal representation. Obviously the use of public funds, obtained through taxation, should not over-ride the minority's freedom of religion. You can post all the quotes you like but they don't override the basic founding principles even when they are in violation of those principles. It's the principles that matter, Zapper. Not the opinions of the individuals who as a collective group, formed those principles. You seem to miss that.
Zapper said:
So what you are saying is what here…What our founding fathers said, offended someone and violated rights?? How can that be? I mean, if what they said couldn’t possible be outdated…Right? um....what's the word I"m looking for here???Oh, yes...HYPOCRITE
For one who wears the country's uniform yet supports the abolition of the rights and freedoms of the people, you sure like to throw the word "hypocrite" around a lot. What I'm saying again, is that we're talking about principles. I often choose a quote from one of the founding fathers to illustrate a principle included in the ideals which ultimately formed America. You have chosen quotes which represent ideals not included in the ideals under which America was formed. All of the ideas presented were collected, discussed sorted through and then some were selected, solidified and included, for the most part, within the
Declaration of Independence,
The United States Constitution and
The Bill of Rights. When statements made by any of the founding fathers show themselves as contrary to the adopted ideals, then it can be shown that the quotation represents only the ideas of the individual and not the collective ideals included within the forming of America.
Zapper said:
What's preposterous is that I have a right to my opinion and you are somehow saying that I don't but someone with an opposing view does. What is preposterous is that someone would vote a person into office not based upon their agreement or even the slightest tidbit of knowledge of where their candidate stands on the ISSUES but based upon the mere fact that his/her candidate of choice is not Bush.
You certainly are entitled to your own opinion as an American citizen. I believe the proper line is,
"I disagree with what you say. But I will defend to the death, your right to say it." But understand that being an American citizen doesn't automatically mean you carry American ideals. Many of those opinions you have posted here are starkly opposed to American ideals.
As much as you have a right to your opinion, when you post it on a forum, it becomes the right of other posters to oppose that opinion and even to attempt to expose the flaws in the thoughts which resulted in that opinion.
If you had only two choices, Adolf ******, (assuming of course he were alive and an American citizen), or someone else whom you knew little about, would you vote for ******?
Zapper said:
Whats preposterous is that one would actually think that protesting our countries actions during war would actually help our soldiers??? Our cause?? No, it just makes us look unorganized and ripe for the picking. I have no problem with the right to protest. But, it must not be overused. These days not only are there frivilous law suites but frivilous protests. There are organizations that will plan, organize and manage your protest for you. The time to have protested would have been prior to going to war not during.
There are also regulations to restrict protests. Some governing bodies require permits, most have designated areas, often far from the event being protested, such as a political speech or rally.
There were many protests before the war, Zapper. Bush made it abundantly clear that he didn't care what the American people thought. This war has never been for the benefit of the American people. It's about big business and bigger profits. What actions do you recommend when a president decides to support those who agree with him and readily admits that he turns his back on those who don't, not even allowing television broadcasts of those protesting the war to be viewed in the Whitehouse in his presence? Is this your idea of a president attempting to represent the people?
Zapper said:
I can tell that being over in theatre during the War and seeing protests or planned protests going on in the states while I was there severely effected not only my morale but the morale of my shipmates. Imagine how that makes a ground soldier feel who is in the thick of it?
If I have to weigh the moral of one soldier against the wrongful death of another, I'll oppose the wrongful death even if it continues to lower moral.
Perhaps the protests make them feel that they are invading another country half way around the world which posed no threat to us and helps them to see that they are killing the people of that country because they did what any person would do; attempted to protect and defend their country from invasion.
Zapper said:
The fact of the matter is we are there, we can't change that now. For one to think that making a fool of oneself illustrated by the obscene protests that took place in New York did nothing but embolden the insurgents. If you do not subscribe to that opinion than so be it. However, in accordance with your logic I am entitled to hold that opinion not only as an American Citizen but also as someone who has been there and has seen how some of these protests have negatively impacted moral and positively reinforced our opponents.
American citizens don't always hold to American values as you have shown many times. But yes, as an American, you do still have the right to your opinion and I defend that right no matter how much I may object to the opinion.
Many tried to gain the attention of those like Bush who plunged us headlong into this war on failed intelligence and false pretenses. They didn't listen so, as you state, we are now there. What better time than now to begin the process of correcting those wrongs, of withdrawing from the fight and to begin the process of repair, not only of the damage in Iraq which might be subject to repair but that of our reputation as seen by the world? That damage may well last beyond the crumbled buildings and wailing sobs of the people of Iraq.
Zapper said:
No..what I am saying is the fact of the matter is we are there. Protesting does nothing but weaken our resolve and strenghthen those of our enemies. It is my opinion that if we had protested less that it would have weakened the enemies cause. Imagine the marketing scheme...You show your recruits a picture of solidarity in American for the war or you show them pictures of libs out in the streets acting like hooligans protesting...Which slide you think would help recruiting more? Answer truthfully please..
The cause of protecting their country from invasion? If the U.S. were invaded by a coallition of countries strong enough to do so, would the absence of protests in the other countries weaken our resolve to protect and defend our people, our ideals and our soil?
Zapper said:
Are you telling me that you don't remember all the terrorists attacks that took place prior to Bush's presidency?...The world is no more dangerous than it was 5 years ago....
Thank you for this, Zapper. To some extent, we agree. The looming presence of increased danger in the world is a Bush fairytale. One that he uses to scare the American people into support of his actions to defeat the firey dragon of terrorism before it strikes down the shining beacon of freedom and democracy, as he likes to put it. The truth is that terrorism has always existed and will always exist, despite this so-called, "war on terror". The other side to that truth is that terrorist strike for a cause and that people turn to terrorism when they have no chance of winning an outright war. Since we declared war on a soveriegn nation and are thrusting our will, (Bush's will), upon them, the degree of danger due to terrorism grows with each day the war continues. We were no more or less safe from terrorism before the attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon than we were before the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. But now we have given the terrorists even more cause to strike. If the purpose was to reduce terrorism, then we have defeated our own purpose. But the fear of terrorism or any other threat should never lead us to forfeit our rights and freedoms.
Zapper said:
wadoflove said:
I guess you would say the same thing if Bush declared himself Emperor for life and had the troops on the streets of America enforcing the new governments decrees. "Too late to protest now, gotta support the troops."
This argument is assanine and a feelble attempt at humor.
I find it to be a very good argument. Bush has declared us to be too free for our own good and has sought to reduce our freedoms and you defend his actions. To what extent would he have to take his assault on American freedoms before you would take note and begin to object? And would there still be enough freedoms shared among the American people to be used as a tool to defeat him? Likely not.
Zapper said:
It's not a question of politics, its a question of the right man for the job...It doesn't matter who started it..It must be finished and Kerry isn't the one to do it by broadcasting a time table to our enemies... it's that simple jr. However, what if McCain had been elected and he started this war...or for that matter Gore...Would you still feel the same?
Bush isn't talking about finishing it. He's talking about escalating it, of taking the war to and against still more countries. If you want the war to be over, the answer has to be pretty much anyone
but Bush.