Planning CTL ramp

[peterwright]

Does anyone have a simple method of planning CTL ramp by a pre determined amount in terms of TSS per week and how it is spread over the week ?

Perhaps Bruce and some of his Sherpa's can come help this poor mathematically challenged person

 

[Bruce Diesel]

Does anyone have a simple method of planning CTL ramp by a pre determined amount in terms of TSS per week and how it is spread over the week ?

Perhaps Bruce and some of his Sherpa's can come help this poor mathematically challenged person

Was doing this is a semi-manual manner before I met you

The CyclingPeaks Erg+ software calculates a TSS score for a workout. So I knew beforehand exactly what my TSS score would be for indoor workouts. For outdoor workouts I was using historical data.

 

[peterwright]

Was doing this is a semi-manual manner before I met you

The CyclingPeaks Erg+ software calculates a TSS score for a workout. So I knew beforehand exactly what my TSS score would be for indoor workouts. For outdoor workouts I was using historical data.

But what I am looking for is a method / calculation to plan a CTL ramp of, say 5 points per week by racking up a set goal of TSS points over that week.

Does that make sense ?

 

[Bruce Diesel]

But what I am looking for is a method / calculation to plan a CTL ramp of, say 5 points per week by racking up a set goal of TSS points over that week.

Does that make sense ?

Isn't that what that expensive PowerCoach software does - i.e. allow you to build training plans? But apparently doesn't use NP and TSS so I'm not sure if it uses older methods like Volume or Cals on a weekly basis.

Shouldn't be too difficult to build based on the formulas for CTL - but you would have to be able to predict quite accurately the TSS of a workout beforehand - this is what I used the Erg+ software for. So in effect, what I used to do was plan a certain TSS for the week, then towards the end of the week assess where I was and structure my weekend rides to try to get close to that value.

This is where I think the Ergomo could have a useful feature - by being able to display IF, NP, and TSS while you are riding. So, if you know you need to ride at a certain NP for a certain duration for the day, you are able to see it while you are riding and pace yourself to some extent.

I thought you were kind of already doing this when structuring training plans?

 

[peterwright]

Isn't that what that expensive PowerCoach software does - i.e. allow you to build training plans? But apparently doesn't use NP and TSS so I'm not sure if it uses older methods like Volume or Cals on a weekly basis.

Shouldn't be too difficult to build based on the formulas for CTL - but you would have to be able to predict quite accurately the TSS of a workout beforehand - this is what I used the Erg+ software for. So in effect, what I used to do was plan a certain TSS for the week, then towards the end of the week assess where I was and structure my weekend rides to try to get close to that value.

This is where I think the Ergomo could have a useful feature - by being able to display IF, NP, and TSS while you are riding. So, if you know you need to ride at a certain NP for a certain duration for the day, you are able to see it while you are riding and pace yourself to some extent.

I thought you were kind of already doing this when structuring training plans?

Well I am - but I would like to be able to do it more precisely.

At present I will look at TSS/week load and plan forward - I am fairly comofrtable with the TSS values I have for most of the sessions I use but I would like to tie this in with CTL ramp a little more accurately.

 

[normZurawski]

I think you need one of those TSTWKT spreadsheets that are floating around and plug in some numbers going forward to calculate what your CTL will look like in 1-2-3-4-etc weeks.

 

[fascat]

Does anyone have a simple method of planning CTL ramp by a pre determined amount in terms of TSS per week and how it is spread over the week ?

Perhaps Bruce and some of his Sherpa's can come help this poor mathematically challenged person

I suggest using the PMC to plot out 3-5 CTL per week with all the usual appropriate amounts of rest. You can ramp more if you have more time and are racing at a higher level.

Right now I work backwards from the start of the racing season and plan CTL to peak out sometime in February for athletes who start racing i March. So you can create imaginary WKO+ files and plan out your entire off season!

Above all get in there and tinker, and work backwards from the TSS equation to figure out at what duration & intensity you need to ride to achieve ___ CTL in say 4 months.

 

[peterwright]

I suggest using the PMC to plot out 3-5 CTL per week with all the usual appropriate amounts of rest. You can ramp more if you have more time and are racing at a higher level.

Right now I work backwards from the start of the racing season and plan CTL to peak out sometime in February for athletes who start racing i March. So you can create imaginary WKO+ files and plan out your entire off season!

Above all get in there and tinker, and work backwards from the TSS equation to figure out at what duration & intensity you need to ride to achieve ___ CTL in say 4 months.

Thanks - I am with you on all of that.

I was looking for something that would allow me to enter a desired ramp rate for CTL and would then give me a required weekly TSS score to achieve that ramp.

I do have the Excel spread and can input various variables in terms of TSS and then see what happens to CTL but as I am working with a good few athletes I would really appreciate a fast way to make the calculation if I decide somebody needs to build at, say 7 CTL per week as opposed to 5.

 

[fascat]

Thanks - I am with you on all of that.

I was looking for something that would allow me to enter a desired ramp rate for CTL and would then give me a required weekly TSS score to achieve that ramp.

I do have the Excel spread and can input various variables in terms of TSS and then see what happens to CTL but as I am working with a good few athletes I would really appreciate a fast way to make the calculation if I decide somebody needs to build at, say 7 CTL per week as opposed to 5.

You are going to have to get in there, put your pocket protector on, break out the calculator and manually work through it. Although w/ Excel its MUCH easier.

 

[peterwright]

You are going to have to get in there, put your pocket protector on, break out the calculator and manually work through it. Although w/ Excel its MUCH easier.

- thought you might say that..

 

[normZurawski]

- thought you might say that..

So I guess the answer is...let us know when you find the equation!

 

[frenchyge]

I was looking for something that would allow me to enter a desired ramp rate for CTL and would then give me a required weekly TSS score to achieve that ramp.

A *daily* TSS value of CTL+4 gives a +1CTL/w ramp rate, and it's surprisingly scaleable (ie, CTL+8 per day gives +2CTL/w, etc.).

As CTL ramps up, the TSS/d values will obviously have to ramp as well to maintain the correct differential.

<removes geek glasses and pocket protector>

 

[amartinez]

A *daily* TSS value of CTL+4 gives a +1CTL/w ramp rate, and it's surprisingly scaleable (ie, CTL+8 per day gives +2CTL/w, etc.).

As CTL ramps up, the TSS/d values will obviously have to ramp as well to maintain the correct differential.

<removes geek glasses and pocket protector>

This approach gives a nice ramp

I tried your a approcha but I had to put a TSS value of CTL+6 to obtain a +1CTL/week ramp rate with CTL time constant =42 (the value is scalable, CTL+12 gives +2CTL/week, etc.)

 

[peterwright]

A *daily* TSS value of CTL+4 gives a +1CTL/w ramp rate, and it's surprisingly scaleable (ie, CTL+8 per day gives +2CTL/w, etc.).

As CTL ramps up, the TSS/d values will obviously have to ramp as well to maintain the correct differential.

<removes geek glasses and pocket protector>

Thanks - but what about "total" weekly TSS to achieve set ramp rates - can this be quantified - eg. 650TSS/week = +5CTL/w ramp

 

[peterwright]

A *daily* TSS value of CTL+4 gives a +1CTL/w ramp rate, and it's surprisingly scaleable (ie, CTL+8 per day gives +2CTL/w, etc.).

As CTL ramps up, the TSS/d values will obviously have to ramp as well to maintain the correct differential.

<removes geek glasses and pocket protector>

Or..do you mean if I take my current CTL of 65 and +4 = 69 = 483TSS/week would give a ramp of 1CTL / week ?

 

[normZurawski]

I believe he means CTL(current) + 4/day, so add 28 TSS/week to raise CTL by 1 for the week.

So if you want to raise by 5, you need 28x5=140 TSS per week increase.

I believe I just read something about a +3 CTL/week boost being the recommended limit - Alex may have posted something to that effect.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I believe he means CTL(current) + 4/day, so add 28 TSS/week to raise CTL by 1 for the week.

So if you want to raise by 5, you need 28x5=140 TSS per week increase.

I believe I just read something about a +3 CTL/week boost being the recommended limit - Alex may have posted something to that effect.

people seem to be able to withstand (in general) an increment of ~ 3 - 8 points per week

ric

 

[amartinez]

The (¿ unoffcial ?) CTL def:

CTL(n) = CTL(n-1) * exp (-1/T1) + Tss(n) * [1 - exp(-1/T1)]

If, as Frenchy proposes, Tss is actual CTL plus a (daily) increment, lets call it Delta:

Tss(n) = CTL(n-1) + Delta

replacing and simplifing:

CTL(n) = CTL(n-1) + [1 - exp(-1/T1)] * Delta

this is a daily linear increment in CTL (ramp) of [1 - exp(-1/T1)] * Delta, or

7 * [1 - exp(-1/T1)] * Delta, in weekly terms

with T1=42, the weekly increment will be: 0.1647*Delta

with Delta=6, the weekly increment in CTL will be 0.988 aprox 1

and the corresponding increment in weekly Tss sum is 7.

It doesn't depend of CTL and is linear wrt delta.

Ale Martinez.

 

[frenchyge]

I tried your a approcha but I had to put a TSS value of CTL+6 to obtain a +1CTL/week ramp rate with CTL time constant =42 (the value is scalable, CTL+12 gives +2CTL/week, etc.)

D'oh! You're right. The spreadsheet I was playing with had a 28d CTL constant at the time, which affects the TSS offset needed. Use +6 instead for a 42d CTL constant.

I believe he means CTL(current) + 4/day, so add 28 TSS/week to raise CTL by 1 for the week.

So if you want to raise by 5, you need 28x5=140 TSS per week increase.

No. (CTL + (4 x ramp)) was the daily value, so multiply the whole thing by 7. I'll try again using weekly values.

With the CTL decaying, TSS bumps due to (e.g.) riding only 4x /wk, RMS averaging ( ), etc., it gets a little more 'approximate' when you start multiplying by 7 for the weekly values. But, I think using "[Current CTL + (6 * desired weekly ramp rate)] x 7 = Current week TSS goal" will get you pretty close for a 42d CTL constant.

Now, if someone else wants to out-geek me, I will gladly concede.

Edit: Oops -- too late. Nice job Ale.

 

[JIM WV]

I think you need one of those TSTWKT spreadsheets that are floating around and plug in some numbers going forward to calculate what your CTL will look like in 1-2-3-4-etc weeks.

Anyone have a link to (or would you email me) one of the TSTWKT spreadsheets? Had one and can't find the file! Tx.