Russia tests world's biggest bomb

[limerickman]

In any case, I note a distinct theme of US policy that is aggressive, provocative and encouraging conflict, which I think stems from a few factors. One being that America truly believes that everyone is scared of them, which has some merit, but not to the extent that they perceive. Another being that there is a huge silent defence industry in the US that even Eisenhower warned about, that commercially needs conflict to do business. .

Very good point.

Eisenhower did warn the people of the USA that the "defence" industry was a threat to not only America's peace but that it was also a threat to US goverment.

Another is that the American voters like/want their leaders to have fist-waving bravado; and conversely - conciliatory leaders are perceived as being weak.

It is interesting to note that even the US education system panders to the perception of an all-conquering US military, for example.
I was in the USA some years ago and looking at one of my nephews school history books.
The Vietnam war, for example, in that history book wasn't described as a military defeat.
That kind of revisionism, coupled with comments like "we won world war 2"
(when in fact the Allies - Russia/Britain/USA and others - defeated the Axis
powers), play to that perception.

And another is that they do not have that much international diplomatic experience, like European colonial powers have, and hence tend to naively believe that the rest of the world thinks the same as them. .

The fact that the USA is a new country, in relative terms to the European colonial powers means that it hasn't got the insight that those colonial powers may have of regions where there is conflict.

Oddly though, those regions where conflict is most prevalent today derives in a large part from the colonial meddling of previous years.
And yet instead of learning from those former colonial powers mistakes (redrawing maps, establishing puppet regimes), the USA today appears to be repeating the failed formulas of those former colonial powers by trying to establish puppet regimes/redrawing maps !

But notwithstanding the frustrations globally of US imperiousness, the country has the mechanism to right itself, and the people are on the whole virtuous and charitable. It is just some eccentrics behind closed doors in the government who create the bad joss offshore, and then are able to sugar-coat it somehow in the US media (if its seen at all), who are the problem IMO. The US doesn't get to witness itself in other countries like other countries do. But the ship is turning folks.

Which is the most baffling part.
Most Americans I've met are reasonable, decent people.
However their goverments policy is at odds with the views that they have expressed about how they would wish to see their country engage internationally.

 

[Crankyfeet]

That kind of revisionism, coupled with comments like "we won world war 2"
(when in fact the Allies - Russia/Britain/USA and others - defeated the Axis
powers), play to that perception.

Lim - Seems we see things similarly, at least in foreign policy terms, however I don't think the "We won WW2" claim is that harmful, even though it probably irritates Brits no end. I think the same mantra has been sung at a few England/Germany football games with equal invalidity.

 

[Biker Joe]

Which just makes the U.S. insistence that Iran stop its nuclear work a joke. Israel has nucler weapons, has invaded its neighbors, and still occupies parts of Syria and as well as the Palestinian's land. If the U.S. truly cared about about peace and stability in the Middle East then they would get the Israelis under control.

Israel has NEVER invaded it's neighboring states without first being attacked or invaded.

I have to say, you guys are a complete joke. 9202 is correct, you self perpetuate a self serving view of the world and history. This is sad, very sad, and VERY disconcerting as well.

This thread discussion is a complete joke.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Which just makes the U.S. insistence that Iran stop its nuclear work a joke. Israel has nucler weapons, has invaded its neighbors, and still occupies parts of Syria and as well as the Palestinian's land. If the U.S. truly cared about about peace and stability in the Middle East then they would get the Israelis under control.

Israel is one of the biggest examples of US hypocrisy evident to the rest of the world. Pakistan is working its way up there too, if the supported anti-democratic dictatorial clamp-down continues there. But in Pakistan's case, the catch 22 quagmire for the US probably stems from the original lie that American aggression is motivated and justified on the grounds of spreading "democracy" and "freedom".

 

[nns1400]

It is interesting to note that even the US education system panders to the perception of an all-conquering US military, for example.
I was in the USA some years ago and looking at one of my nephews school history books.
The Vietnam war, for example, in that history book wasn't described as a military defeat.
That kind of revisionism, coupled with comments like "we won world war 2"
(when in fact the Allies - Russia/Britain/USA and others - defeated the Axis
powers), play to that perception.



.

Really? Well, when I was studying French in high school, something we had to read were French textbooks. In case you didn't know, Charles De Gaulle won WW 2.

BTW Europe, you're welcome...

 

[limerickman]

Really? Well, when I was studying French in high school, something we had to read were French textbooks. In case you didn't know, Charles De Gaulle won WW 2.

BTW Europe, you're welcome...

Well those French textbooks are as inaccurate as the history books used in New England circa 1994.

The fact of the matter is that the Allies won world war 2.

 

[nns1400]

Well those French textbooks are as inaccurate as the history books used in New England circa 1994.

The fact of the matter is that the Allies won world war 2.

Duh...

Textbooks are written by committees...they all suck, any subject...

 

[Crankyfeet]

We have heard the justification that the bombs were dropped on Japan to end the war.

Has anyone asked why the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki only three days after 140,000 civilians were killed in Hiroshima? The second drop on Nagasaki killed an estimated 80,000 civilians. Seems like some ass-holes were just having some "fun" seeing how many people they could kill with the "Fat Man" bomb in Nagasaki.

If there truly was respect for human life...all attempts would have been made for a surrender after the first bomb, even if that can somehow be justified.

 

[limerickman]

Lim - Seems we see things similarly, at least in foreign policy terms, however I don't think the "We won WW2" claim is that harmful, even though it probably irritates Brits no end. I think the same mantra has been sung at a few England/Germany football games with equal invalidity.

Agreed.
And agreed.

Just that the point dovetails nicely with your earlier point about people wanting their leaders to engage in bravado.

It does beggar belief though that the USA, today, seems to be intent on repeating the exact same mistakes that were made by those former colonial powers.

 

[sogood]

I don't see what they are so surprised about. U.S. aircraft carrier groups exist to exert power over countries that cannot fight back. In a real war those carriers are goners.

I often wondered just how useful are these show of strength? What's the point of floating a few carrier battle groups into the Red Sea? As if the Iranians don't know that the US have them. So what if they are out there? Nothing changes until there's an actual invasion, at which point Iranians will die, but so will American. And we all know that without ground action, air power alone only has limited power. As seen in the Iran-Iraq war, they are willing to die in the millions, but is the US willing to sacrifice the same? Hence the paper tiger analogy.

 

[limerickman]

Duh...

Textbooks are written by committees...they all suck, any subject...

In your country, perhaps.

 

[sogood]

... the people are on the whole virtuous and charitable. It is just some eccentrics behind closed doors in the government who create the bad joss offshore...

Funny that. Same can be said of every country on this planet.

 

[nns1400]

In your country, perhaps.

And apparently France...though I'm sure everything written in all other countries is completely objective...

 

[Crankyfeet]

Israel has NEVER invaded it's neighboring states without first being attacked or invaded.

I have to say, you guys are a complete joke. 9202 is correct, you self perpetuate a self serving view of the world and history. This is sad, very sad, and VERY disconcerting as well.

This thread discussion is a complete joke.

So every time someone throws a stone over their wall, it justifies expanding their territory? Obviously I made-up a fictitiously exaggerated scenario to make a point.

 

[limerickman]

We have heard the justification that the bombs were dropped on Japan to end the war.

Has anyone asked why the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki only three days after 140,000 civilians were killed in Hiroshima? The second drop on Nagasaki killed an estimated 80,000 civilians. Seems like some ass-holes were just having some "fun" seeing how many people they could kill with the "Fat Man" bomb in Nagasaki.

If there truly was respect for human life...all attempts would have been made for a surrender after the first bomb, even if that can be somehow be justified.

Well they trotted out the excuse that the Japanese would never surrender so that is why they dropped the first bomb.........I don't know what excuse they gave for dropping the second bomb.
Shameful period in the history of the USA.

 

[limerickman]

And apparently France...though I'm sure everything written in all other countries is completely objective...

..........well France at least had the intelligence to quit Vietnam before they got booted out.
Objectively speaking, of course.

 

[sogood]

..........well France at least had the intelligence to quit Vietnam before they got booted out.
Objectively speaking, of course.

After Dien Bien Phu, they effectively got booted out.

 

[limerickman]

After Dien Bien Phu, they effectively got booted out.

Correct.
The point being that they got out without incurring needless loss of additional lives in a campaign that was doomed to failure, in 1954.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Funny that. Same can be said of every country on this planet.

Correct. Though not everyone has the same toys and ammunition at their disposal as the US does.

I wasn't isolating America. Just highlighting the public's perceived notion of changing democratic government (and presidents) and the reality of unchanging public servants behind the scenes with agendas and the ability to mask/spin their activities.

I think the series "Yes Prime Minister" in the UK in the early eighties was excellent (and hilarious) at showing these machinations of government. Even Maggie T. used to like watching it I think.

 

[nns1400]

Well they trotted out the excuse that the Japanese would never surrender so that is why they dropped the first bomb.........I don't know what excuse they gave for dropping the second bomb.
Shameful period in the history of the USA.

According to this forum, every period in the history of the USA is shameful.

That period was back when we fought wars to win them. The "excuse" was that Japan did not surrender, even after getting hit with the first nuke. I guess it was also wrong that we carpet bombed Japan and Germany....you just seem to think it's worse when you kill that many people at one time instead of over longer periods of time.

Now, though, we don't fight wars like that...innocent people might have been killed by blowing Fallujah off the map to begin with, so instead, innocent people get killed day in and day out, dragging on forever. Instead of crushing Iraq, taking it over, and forcing "democracy" on them until they got the hang of it, as we did to Japan, we are trying to be culturally sensitive while fighting a war.

Not a big fan of war, don't get me wrong. But either fight one or don't. Personally, if the US is going to take the rap for being imperialist they would do better to act more like it...just my opinion of course...didn't read that in any textbook or anything...BTW, Lim, don't worry about those school books..all my history teachers were flaming liberals...they hate America as much as some people here do..

I'm going out for the evening so if (when) you start flaming me and I don't respond, I'm not hiding...

P.S. Go easy on me Cranky, or you'll never see any of that whipped cream...