So 3 USPS used EPO in 1999 TdF.

[[email protected]]

Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
1999 TdF.

Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.

For those keeping score at home.

Duped (once)

 

[B. Lafferty]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
> 1999 TdF.
>
> Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
> TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
> then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
> on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>
> For those keeping score at home.
>
> Duped (once)
>
Three down, five to go?

 

[mrsixtypercent]

B. Lafferty wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
> > 1999 TdF.
> >
> > Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
> > TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
> > then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
> > on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
> >
> > For those keeping score at home.
> >
> > Duped (once)
> >
> Three down, five to go?

Straight from the horse's mouth...

"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
Vaughters

So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
under the 50% limit.

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On 15 Sep 2006 06:36:34 -0700, mrsixtypercent wrote:
> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> under the 50% limit.

Even if a team doesn't dope, a 'crit testing machine may be a sound
business investment.

--
E. Dronkert

 

[Fred Fredburger]

B. Lafferty wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
>> 1999 TdF.
>>
>> Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
>> TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
>> then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
>> on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>>
>> For those keeping score at home.
>>
>> Duped (once)
>>
> Three down, five to go?
>
>

C'mon Lafferty, I thought you would know the difference between blood
and urine. I understand duped's confusion, I'm sure he's had his ass
kicked so often he pisses blood all the time.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 15 Sep 2006 06:36:34 -0700, mrsixtypercent wrote:
>> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
>> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
>> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
>> under the 50% limit.
>
> Even if a team doesn't dope, a 'crit testing machine may be a sound
> business investment.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Perhaps before the first hematocrit test before the start of a 3 week race.
But we know that hematocrit goes down over the course of those three weeks,
so there really would be no need for the machine.That said, the whole
paradigm may shift if the rider ingests sufficient quantities of King Cake
during that three week period. No?

 

[Wayne Pein]

mrsixtypercent wrote:

> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.

If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
hematocrit.

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Wayne Pein wrote:
> If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
> top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
> hematocrit.

Increasing haematocrit in an individual is performance enhancing but I
wonder about the correlation between absolute values and performance. I
don't think it's strong.

--
E. Dronkert

 

[[email protected]]

Wayne Pein wrote:
> mrsixtypercent wrote:
>
> > So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> > team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.
>
> If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
> top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
> hematocrit.

the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
value than the normal population.

 

[Donald Munro]

B. Lafferty wrote:
> That said, the whole paradigm may shift if the rider ingests sufficient
> quantities of King Cake during that three week period. No?

So King Cake washed down with Jack Daniels would make a good tour diet ?

 

[[email protected]]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2006 06:36:34 -0700, mrsixtypercent wrote:
> > why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> > should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> > they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> > under the 50% limit.
>
> Even if a team doesn't dope, a 'crit testing machine may be a sound
> business investment.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

As in:

"why would one use a radar detector unless they were planning on
speeding?"

-bdbafh

 

[Dan Connelly]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>> If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected
>> that top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie
>> higher hematocrit.
>
> Increasing haematocrit in an individual is performance enhancing but I
> wonder about the correlation between absolute values and performance. I
> don't think it's strong.
>


Good point. Like caffeine.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Donald Munro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>> That said, the whole paradigm may shift if the rider ingests sufficient
>> quantities of King Cake during that three week period. No?
>
> So King Cake washed down with Jack Daniels would make a good tour diet ?
>
>
For some people, I guess.

 

[[email protected]]

mrsixtypercent wrote:
> B. Lafferty wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
> > > 1999 TdF.
> > >
> > > Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
> > > TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
> > > then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
> > > on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
> > >
> > > For those keeping score at home.
> > >
> > > Duped (once)
> > >
> > Three down, five to go?
>
> Straight from the horse's mouth...
>
> "I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
> of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
> got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
> the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
> whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
> Vaughters
>
> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> under the 50% limit.

We can certainly assume that is why the team uses them, but they can
always claim that is was for internal enforcement of the 50% rule.
Funny though, because the riders do not get together very often, except
for the actual races.

 

[bob sullivan]

mrsixtypercent wrote:
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
>>>1999 TdF.
>>>
>>>Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
>>>TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
>>>then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
>>>on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>>>
>>>For those keeping score at home.
>>>
>>>Duped (once)
>>>
>>Three down, five to go?
>
> Straight from the horse's mouth...
>
> "I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
> of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
> got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
> the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
> whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
> Vaughters
>
> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> under the 50% limit.

But you can raise your hematocrit without doping, yes? By training at
altitude or using an altitude tent?

~bob

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On 15 Sep 2006 06:36:34 -0700, mrsixtypercent wrote:
> >> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> >> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> >> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> >> under the 50% limit.
> >
> > Even if a team doesn't dope, a 'crit testing machine may be a sound
> > business investment.
> >
> > --
> > E. Dronkert
>
> Perhaps before the first hematocrit test before the start of a 3 week race.
> But we know that hematocrit goes down over the course of those three weeks,
> so there really would be no need for the machine.That said, the whole
> paradigm may shift if the rider ingests sufficient quantities of King Cake
> during that three week period. No?

I guess it would depend on what they made the trinket in the cake out of, if you
know what I mean...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
> > mrsixtypercent wrote:
> >
> > > So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> > > team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.
> >
> > If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
> > top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
> > hematocrit.
>
> the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
> anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
> value than the normal population.

Perhaps the toip level athletes start out with higher values, and eventually drop
down to a level closer to the societal norm.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[RonSonic]

On 15 Sep 2006 09:52:47 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Wayne Pein wrote:
>> mrsixtypercent wrote:
>>
>> > So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
>> > team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.
>>
>> If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
>> top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
>> hematocrit.
>
>the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
>anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
>value than the normal population.

But they are selected form a portion of the population with higher HCT.

Ron

 

[Donald Munro]

B. Lafferty wrote:
>>> That said, the whole paradigm may shift if the rider ingests sufficient
>>> quantities of King Cake during that three week period. No?

Donald Munro wrote:
>> So King Cake washed down with Jack Daniels would make a good tour diet ?

B. Lafferty wrote:
> For some people, I guess.

Speaking of King cakes, when does the next Ullrich weight competition
start ?

 

[meb]

mrsixtypercent wrote:
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
>>>1999 TdF.
>>>
>>>Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
>>>TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
>>>then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
>>>on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>>>
>>>For those keeping score at home.
>>>
>>>Duped (once)
>>>
>>Three down, five to go?
>
> Straight from the horse's mouth...
>
> "I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
> of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
> got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
> the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
> whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
> Vaughters
>
> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
> why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
> under the 50% limit.

But you can raise your hematocrit without doping, yes? By training at
altitude or using an altitude tent?

~bob

With altitude training, the nondoping cyclist are going to be above 45 %.