So 3 USPS used EPO in 1999 TdF.



RonSonic wrote:

> >the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
> >anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
> >value than the normal population.

>
> But they are selected form a portion of the population with higher HCT.
>


nope.
 
On 16 Sep 2006 19:18:09 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>RonSonic wrote:
>
>> >the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
>> >anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
>> >value than the normal population.

>>
>> But they are selected from a portion of the population with higher HCT.
>>

>
>nope.


So you mean we really aren't faster than ordinary people? Unless we dope? Or we
are just the only ones dumb enough to pedal until we get better at this?

Faint glimmer of enlightenment as this "dumbass" thing starts to come into
focus. Better just go on a hard long ride tomorrow and forget about it.

Ron
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
> > mrsixtypercent wrote:
> >
> > > So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> > > team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.

> >
> > If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected that
> > top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie higher
> > hematocrit.

>
> the usual effect of endurance training is to reduce hematocrit. so if
> anything a population of bike racers who don't dope should have a lower
> value than the normal population.


Unless Altitude Tents are used to raise HCT. Which are often used.

ML
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
> 1999 TdF.
>
> Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
> TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
> then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
> on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>
> For those keeping score at home.
>
> Duped (once)


Is it 3 or more than 3...

Livingston had Mr. Orange Juice, Ferrari prepping his engine.
http://www.velonews.com/race/tour2001/articles/1094.0.html

July 8, 2001
Several newspapers in Italy reported on Saturday that Armstrong has
recently visited and worked with Ferrari. The Italian physician has
been under investigation since 1998 on suspicion that he has relied on
performance-enhancing drugs to help his most promising riders,
including former world hour record holder Tony Rominger, Italy's Mario
Cipollini, Spaniard Abraham Olano and Armstrong's former teammate Kevin
Livingston.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Frankie and the mystery guy admitted to the NY Times to EPO use in the
> 1999 TdF.
>
> Lance tested POSITIVE for EPO from the blood that was from the 1999
> TdF. However, this was an experimental test, as there was no test back
> then. So they stored the blood for now, and broke all proper protocol
> on testing confidentiality, so Lance walks on a techno-cality.
>
> For those keeping score at home.
>
> Duped (once)



It all makes sense now. Frankie was Lance's Mule. Lance is ****** now
because he didn't know Frankie was taking EPO - causing his positive result
in '99.

-T
 
mrsixtypercent said:
B. Lafferty wrote:
Straight from the horse's mouth...

"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
Vaughters

So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they were
under the 50% limit.
not a pro-doper but it would make sense, as a team, to check things like hematocrit levels and bike weights/measurements to make sure that things are legal. if teams had accurate scales they wouldn't be rushing around bolting wrenched under bottle cages to bring up bike weights. and a centrifuge is apparently not a complex machine and would allow the team to take measures if a rider is a bit "thick in the blood".

Vaughters was naturally 50-52% if I recall correctly so he was "excused", hence his "hall-pass". he proved this by undergoing tests proving his higher hematocrit.

I'm no super rider, I get dropped pretty quickly in the hills, I'm close to my max in races all the time, but my hematocrit has always been in the upper 40's. my last three checks were at 49%, 48% and 47%. it's not uncommon to have a 45% hematocrit or higher. even the form says the "normal range" is up to 52%. I have to believe that pros have a naturally higher starting point than most of us. it wouldn't make sense if the average ProTour pro had a lower hematocrit than an average "joe".
 
"thick in the blood"...
I think you are "thick in the head" like most gullable saps and doping
apologists.
The very best cyclists, cross country skiers and biathletes have
roughly the same hematocrit as the rest of the generally population.
When they are in periods of intense competition or training their
hematocrit tends to be lower by 5-10% (i.e. 5-10% of 42% it we take 42%
as an average). What you find with doped athletes (and all the top guys
are doped) or specifically what Banfi and D'Onofrio as part of the
Conconi trial into organised doping found was that there were seasonal
variations of greater than 20% or more in hematocrit. They showed that
there were peaks in hematocrit for cyclist in May,June and July and
troughs during out of season. Of couse the cross country skiers peaked
in Februrary each year and the biathletes in December. No known
pathology could have casued these variations in an individual, let
alone a group of individuals.

We know definitively that Armstrong was doped as a result of this
positive EPO test and Andreu from his own admission. As a group all US
Postal riders had inexplicably high hematocrit levels coming up to the
99 Tour. They were all rEPO doped including Vaughters - that "hall
pass" or note from his mother is just a smoke screen.



carpediemracing wrote:
> mrsixtypercent Wrote:
> > B. Lafferty wrote:
> > Straight from the horse's mouth...
> >
> > "I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the
> > start
> > of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
> > got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
> > the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
> > whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)." - Jonathan
> > Vaughters
> >
> > So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> > team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!. You also have to ask
> > why this team had its own blood spinner to test hematocit when there
> > should be no reasonable need to do so. The only explanation is that
> > they were systematically doped and that they needed to check they
> > were
> > under the 50% limit.not a pro-doper but it would make sense, as a team, to check things like

> hematocrit levels and bike weights/measurements to make sure that things
> are legal. if teams had accurate scales they wouldn't be rushing around
> bolting wrenched under bottle cages to bring up bike weights. and a
> centrifuge is apparently not a complex machine and would allow the team
> to take measures if a rider is a bit "thick in the blood".
>
> Vaughters was naturally 50-52% if I recall correctly so he was
> "excused", hence his "hall-pass". he proved this by undergoing tests
> proving his higher hematocrit.
>
> I'm no super rider, I get dropped pretty quickly in the hills, I'm
> close to my max in races all the time, but my hematocrit has always
> been in the upper 40's. my last three checks were at 49%, 48% and 47%.
> it's not uncommon to have a 45% hematocrit or higher. even the form
> says the "normal range" is up to 52%. I have to believe that pros have
> a naturally higher starting point than most of us. it wouldn't make
> sense if the average ProTour pro had a lower hematocrit than an average
> "joe".
>
>
> --
> carpediemracing
 
On 2006-09-15 09:36:33 -0700, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> said:

> mrsixtypercent wrote:
>
>> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
>> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.

>
> If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected
> that top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie
> higher hematocrit.


Absolutely not. Average 'crit is actually lower in trained athletes.
There have been numerous studies on this.
 
Bill Lloyd wrote:
> On 2006-09-15 09:36:33 -0700, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> said:
>
> > mrsixtypercent wrote:
> >
> >> So the natural average hematocit is low 40's yet here we have a whole
> >> team close to 50 percent - what a coincidence!.

> >
> > If the "average" for the population is low 40's, it can be expected
> > that top aerobic atheletes are top because of better physiology, ie
> > higher hematocrit.

>
> Absolutely not. Average 'crit is actually lower in trained athletes.
> There have been numerous studies on this.


I have a hypothesis on this. Remember I am totally cynical on doping in
athletics and believe it to be ubiquitous at top levels.

Given a testing threshold of 50 -athletes who have natural crit levels
in the low 40's have an advantage over those with naturally higher
levels. If one has a natural crit level of 40 the body has adjusted to
working well with that level. But by artificially boosting it to 49
that athlete gets an improvement of >20%. However the poor athlete who
has a natural level of 48 and boosts to 49 gets only a 2% improvement.

Talk aboput a non level playing field.
 
gds wrote:

> Given a testing threshold of 50 -athletes who have natural crit levels
> in the low 40's have an advantage over those with naturally higher
> levels. If one has a natural crit level of 40 the body has adjusted to
> working well with that level. But by artificially boosting it to 49
> that athlete gets an improvement of >20%. However the poor athlete who
> has a natural level of 48 and boosts to 49 gets only a 2% improvement.
>
> Talk aboput a non level playing field.


Last year I called my doctor for blood test results. There were no
problems but when out of interest I asked her my crit level she told me
it was 49.9% - so not much room for me to dope!
All the best
Dan Gregory
 
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:13:25 +0100, Dan Gregory
<[email protected]> wrote:

>gds wrote:
>
>> Given a testing threshold of 50 -athletes who have natural crit levels
>> in the low 40's have an advantage over those with naturally higher
>> levels. If one has a natural crit level of 40 the body has adjusted to
>> working well with that level. But by artificially boosting it to 49
>> that athlete gets an improvement of >20%. However the poor athlete who
>> has a natural level of 48 and boosts to 49 gets only a 2% improvement.
>>
>> Talk aboput a non level playing field.

>
>Last year I called my doctor for blood test results. There were no
>problems but when out of interest I asked her my crit level she told me
>it was 49.9% - so not much room for me to dope!


But you get to save a lot of money for ball patches!

Ron
 
Dan Gregory wrote:
> Last year I called my doctor for blood test results. There were no
> problems but when out of interest I asked her my crit level she told me
> it was 49.9% - so not much room for me to dope!


If you're 49.9% you must be guilty. That is the rbr law.

Judge Dredd