Ullrich 25 seconds back



Think I mentioned that in another post. Though it's good to have 15
seconds, the next battleground will be the TTT.

fstrnu wrote:
> You guys are all missing the boat. Those seconds put pressure on Jan. He
> will have to make a move and Armstrong can just recline on his bike and
> draft all the way up the climbs. Short of a crash by Armstrong, it's all
> over now. Sucks that it's over so soon.
>
> "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Michael wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That's not the way he wants to start this race.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>
>>not 25 down from his main competition, however. What year was it, 2001?
>>where several riders had a 35 minute gap on the peleton and were just
>>allowed to get away? Resulted in Stuart O'Grady, then Francios Simon
>>wearing the Maillot Jaune for quite a while, until Lance finally ripped
>>it off Francois' tired ol' body in the Pyrenees.
>>
>>
 
Pistof wrote:

> If you know so much, why don't you call the poor inexperienced Ullrich up
> and give him some tips?
>
> Jan is doing just dandy.

You should know better than to say something like that. You can
absolutely bet on the bank that Walter and Jan are going to say publicly
that everying is fine and going to plan, but back in the team bus or
hotel they probably had some serious frowns on and are trying to figure
out where they can make it up.

> "Michael" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>That's not the way he wants to start this race.
>>
>>Mike
 
Richard Adams wrote:

> You should know better than to say something like that. You can
> absolutely bet on the bank that Walter and Jan are going to say publicly
> that everying is fine and going to plan, but back in the team bus or
> hotel they probably had some serious frowns on and are trying to figure
> out where they can make it up.
>

Yeah, I heard Jan is contemplating giving up, muttering something like
"missing power" and being totally exhausted by his effort of the prologue.
Why not just listen to what Jan himself had said about taking the slower
but more secure wheels and bike, and taking it easy in the corners?

Remember, the last time he did an innercity TT in the Tour he crashed,
two times.
 
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:37:46 GMT, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Francios Simon wearing the Maillot Jaune for quite a while, until Lance
>> finally ripped it off Francois' tired ol' body in the Pyrenees.
>
> Yes, 2001. [...] Seems so long ago, and yet it really wasn't. Just 4 years.

2001, so three years ago. The stage with the long breakaway:
http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf_1994_2003/tdf2001_8.php
And where Armstrong took the yellow:
http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf_1994_2003/tdf2001_13.php
 
Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:

> > You didn't mention the late Kivelev. Wasn't he in that huge break and
> > wasn't he the last one to yield his advantage? I'm asking 'cuz I don't
> > exactly recall. I seem to recall him being a threat well into the race ...
> > longer even than Simon.

> Kivilev finished with a good placing, but it wasn't he who relieved
> Simon of the Maillot Jaune. Dangerous to let a ringer go like that,
> however.

Kivilev (RIP) was a more serious threat than Simon, because a
better climber, but never got to wear the jersey because he
was already quite a few minutes behind Simon on GC; Lance
overtook Simon before Kivilev could. Some little remembered
trivia: a few days before the long breakaway to Pontarlier,
everyone from Cofidis (yeah, Cofidis again) got caught behind
a split and lost 18 minutes. If Kivilev has not been already
about 20 minutes down, the GC contenders' teams would have had
to chase the breakway more seriously and the whole saga would
not have happened.
 
Michael wrote:

> That's not the way he wants to start this race.
>
> Mike
>
>
my feeling is that after losing so much weight this spring he doesn't
have as much power in TTs but the TdS would indicate that he has an
adavantage in the mountains. Remembering the Luz stage where LA rode
away from him this could be significant.
 
psycholist wrote:
> You didn't mention the late Kivelev. Wasn't he in that huge break and
> wasn't he the last one to yield his advantage? I'm asking 'cuz I don't
> exactly recall. I seem to recall him being a threat well into the race ...
> longer even than Simon.
>
> Bob C.

Yes, Kivilev was in the break. I don't think things worked out for him
to actually have the yellow for a day, or even "on the road". Simone
seems to have been strong enough to make the slight difference there.
O'Grady, also in the break, caught the jersey for a day or two.

I remember that day most because of the exploits of Aitor Gonzalez, who
spent the last half hour of the ride bridging gaps, then chasing down
consecutive attacks from Erik Dekker and his Rabobank teammate. Gonzalez
took second in the sprint. My best indoor ride is a loose re-enactment
(you can see it on my soon to be officially opened site for cycling
instructors, www.cyclewarez.com).

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"
 
"Michael" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > Fifteen seconds is one quarter of the winning margin from last year,
and
> > > IMHO, is not to be sneered at. Both LA and Jan pretend otherwise, and,
as
> > > Lance is fond of saying, "anything can happen..."
> >
> > I have no doubt that Lance sees "15 seconds" as something more than
> > symbolic. We've even seen him contest a few sprints lately... there may
be
> > times those finishing bonuses could be a very handy thing to have.
> >
> > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> That's right. It's early and it's 25 seconds. But Ullrich is going to have
to wonder
> about how this race is going to shape up.
>
> Where else can he make it up? Historically, the only place he has beaten
> Armstrong is in the TTs, and only once. Last year, in the second TT, he
> took a minute from Armstrong, but not in the final TT, and not in this
> Prologue TT. He'll look to have a little better luck in a longer TT.
>
> Team TT? No chance. He'll lose a little time.
>
> The mountain stages? Of course, some time, Armstrong is going to crack
> in the mountains. It may happen this year, but his training shows that is
> highly unlikely. He's in terrific shape and has enormous confidence.
Ullrich
> has no history of leaving Armstrong behind in the mountains.

How far back does your history go? Have you not seen the 2000 Tour where
Ullrich cracked Armstrong in a mountain stage? Sure, he has an answer as he
did every time he lost time lost year but when all is said and done,
Armstrong has not shown a dominant Tour performance since 2002 and not
against Ullrich since 2001. Last year, Ullrich had the best excuse to
perform poorly and lost by only a minute and small change. The trend DOES
NOT favor Lance regardless of what happened in the prolog.


>
> Yes, it's way early, but for Ullrich, 25 seconds looms large.
>
> Mike

Oh Lord, everyone thinks his vibes are some kind of wisdom worth sharing on
Usenet....
 
"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> psycholist wrote:
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:_E%[email protected]...
> >
> >>>not 25 down from his main competition, however. What year was it,
2001?
> >>>where several riders had a 35 minute gap on the peleton and were just
> >>>allowed to get away? Resulted in Stuart O'Grady, then Francios Simon
> >>>wearing the Maillot Jaune for quite a while, until Lance finally ripped
> >>>it off Francois' tired ol' body in the Pyrenees.
> >>
> >>Yes, 2001. That will not be allowed to happen again. I was there; we
had
> >
> > a
> >
> >>dinner that night with one of the team support guys. They were most
> >>definitely not comfortable with what had gone on; in hindsight they
> >
> > regarded
> >
> >>it as a serious tactical error. The problem is that sometimes, not too
> >>often but sometimes, the jersey makes the man. I believe there was some
> >>(although slight) fear that Simon might ride better than he was capable
> >
> > of;
> >
> >>O'Grady wasn't considered such a big issue by the team, if I recall
> >>correctly. However, in looking at my notes, it appears that we
> >>(spectators/those who don't know any better) were more concerned about
> >>O'Grady, because he was someone we knew something about.
> >>
> >>Seems so long ago, and yet it really wasn't. Just 4 years.
> >>
> >>--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> >>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > You didn't mention the late Kivelev. Wasn't he in that huge break and
> > wasn't he the last one to yield his advantage? I'm asking 'cuz I don't
> > exactly recall. I seem to recall him being a threat well into the race
....
> > longer even than Simon.
> >
> > Bob C.
> >
> >
>
> Kivilev finished with a good placing, but it wasn't he who relieved
> Simon of the Maillot Jaune. Dangerous to let a ringer go like that,
> however.

Kiv finished in 4th and did pass Simon on GC the same day as Lance did so
yes, he did but not with the same gap as LA.
 
"Benjamin Weiner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:40e915ec$1@darkstar...
> Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > You didn't mention the late Kivelev. Wasn't he in that huge break and
> > > wasn't he the last one to yield his advantage? I'm asking 'cuz I
don't
> > > exactly recall. I seem to recall him being a threat well into the
race ...
> > > longer even than Simon.
>
> > Kivilev finished with a good placing, but it wasn't he who relieved
> > Simon of the Maillot Jaune. Dangerous to let a ringer go like that,
> > however.
>
> Kivilev (RIP) was a more serious threat than Simon, because a
> better climber, but never got to wear the jersey because he
> was already quite a few minutes behind Simon on GC; Lance
> overtook Simon before Kivilev could.

By about a minute! At the end of the same stage.


Some little remembered
> trivia: a few days before the long breakaway to Pontarlier,
> everyone from Cofidis (yeah, Cofidis again) got caught behind
> a split and lost 18 minutes. If Kivilev has not been already
> about 20 minutes down, the GC contenders' teams would have had
> to chase the breakway more seriously and the whole saga would
> not have happened.

There are too many variable IMO to read it that far back but I had not
forgotten about that. Kiv had a great Tour that year and earned his 4th
place on GC as much as anyone ever has (except for possibly Tyler last
year).
 
AMG wrote:
>
> Fifteen seconds is one quarter of the winning margin from last year,
> and IMHO, is not to be sneered at. Both LA and Jan pretend otherwise,
> and, as Lance is fond of saying, "anything can happen..." But I'm
> sure he is happy to have banked the time. Plus, putting 15 s into
> Ullrich (and more into
> the other contenders) is bound to have a demoralizing effect, even if
> slight; this will counteract to some degree the blood-in-the-water
> feeding tendencies that LA's seemingly weak performance last year
> might have encouraged... Psychological warfare.
>
Alternately, it could be seen as an attempt to take as much time as he can,
when he can, because he thinks that it is likely that he will lose heaps of
time elsewhere. Riding your ass off in the prologue of a tough 3 week Tour
can be seen as an act of desparation.
 
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:21:56 GMT, Michael wrote:
> That's not the way he wants to start this race.

It was (and still is) cold weather. Jan shines when the sun shines.
 
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:21:56 GMT, Michael wrote:
>
>>That's not the way he wants to start this race.
>
>
> It was (and still is) cold weather. Jan shines when the sun shines.

He had his chance last year, with all there seering heat. What are we
to expect if this is a cool and wet TdF, excuses?
 
"Daremo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> First stage ......... gimme a break ..........
>
> He's only 16 back of Armstrong based on a whopping 3.8 mile time trial,
> with light mist in certain areas and some sharp turns.

Indeed, completely different for 55km to come at Besancon.

BTW, does anyone remember off the top of their head where Pantani placed in
the Prologue in 1998?*

*Disclaimer--this is not an analogy in the making; just idle curiosity.
 
"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pistof wrote:
>
> > If you know so much, why don't you call the poor inexperienced Ullrich
up
> > and give him some tips?
> >
> > Jan is doing just dandy.
>
> You should know better than to say something like that. You can
> absolutely bet on the bank that Walter and Jan are going to say publicly
> that everying is fine and going to plan, but back in the team bus or
> hotel they probably had some serious frowns on and are trying to figure
> out where they can make it up.

Well, the idea would be that T-Mobile are stronger than USPS this year. At
least they should think so. Otherwise, how else they gonna beat Lance and
expect to win. I doubt there was much panic at the T-Mobile dinner table
after the prologue. That would stress out the team. I don't think they can
handle much more stress than that which they get from reading this group
before each nighty-night.

Steady as she goes, Jan, the mtns are a good ways off.

> > "Michael" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>That's not the way he wants to start this race.
> >>
> >>Mike
>
 
B. Lafferty wrote:

> "Daremo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>First stage ......... gimme a break ..........
>>
>>He's only 16 back of Armstrong based on a whopping 3.8 mile time trial,
>>with light mist in certain areas and some sharp turns.
>
>
> Indeed, completely different for 55km to come at Besancon.
>
> BTW, does anyone remember off the top of their head where Pantani placed in
> the Prologue in 1998?*
>
> *Disclaimer--this is not an analogy in the making; just idle curiosity.
>
>

181. 48 seconds off Boardman

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/prol.html
 
Pistof wrote:

> "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Pistof wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you know so much, why don't you call the poor inexperienced Ullrich
>
> up
>
>>>and give him some tips?
>>>
>>>Jan is doing just dandy.
>>
>>You should know better than to say something like that. You can
>>absolutely bet on the bank that Walter and Jan are going to say publicly
>>that everying is fine and going to plan, but back in the team bus or
>>hotel they probably had some serious frowns on and are trying to figure
>>out where they can make it up.
>
>
> Well, the idea would be that T-Mobile are stronger than USPS this year. At
> least they should think so.

Doubtful, particularly without Vinokurov, who would have been dynamite.

> Otherwise, how else they gonna beat Lance and
> expect to win.

Looking at Jan's teams when they've got to the final climbs of mountain
finishes he's usually there by himself while Lance still has two
climbers. He's really stacked the Postal deck with climbers this year.

> I doubt there was much panic at the T-Mobile dinner table
> after the prologue.

Lance's second book was more insightful about the team than the first
book. He mentions that when things are going well, they're laughing and
joking around the dinner table while other teams riders are quietly
eating. When things go poorly they're quiet. There are only two teams
I can think of that would have fun at dinner, Postal and CSC, because
both bond whereas other teams are basically just the guys they pick for
the race and they don't really hang out together. Vino and Erik are two
of Jan's best buds, only one is present on the team.

> That would stress out the team. I don't think they can
> handle much more stress than that which they get from reading this group
> before each nighty-night.

Maybe Jan was tired from being up all night working his way through the
Helmet/Troll thread.

> Steady as she goes, Jan, the mtns are a good ways off.
>
>
>>>"Michael" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>That's not the way he wants to start this race.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>
>
>
 
On Monday 05 July 2004 21:54%, Richard Adams wrote:
> He had his chance last year, with all there seering heat. What are we
> to expect if this is a cool and wet TdF, excuses?

I don't believe we will hear any excuses from Herr Ullrich himself, but
we will all say: quel dommage!
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:

> B. Lafferty wrote:
>
> > "Daremo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>First stage ......... gimme a break ..........
> >>
> >>He's only 16 back of Armstrong based on a whopping 3.8 mile time trial,
> >>with light mist in certain areas and some sharp turns.
> >
> >
> > Indeed, completely different for 55km to come at Besancon.
> >
> > BTW, does anyone remember off the top of their head where Pantani placed in
> > the Prologue in 1998?*
> >
> > *Disclaimer--this is not an analogy in the making; just idle curiosity.
> >
> >
>
> 181. 48 seconds off Boardman
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/prol.html

That's over three times what Ullrich is behind Armstrong - I guess it
wasn't "all over" that time...

--
tanx,
Howard

"The fickleness of fame and fortune's caprice
Together changed the life of Mason Reese"
Alice Donut

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:

> Pistof wrote:

> > That would stress out the team. I don't think they can
> > handle much more stress than that which they get from reading this group
> > before each nighty-night.
>
> Maybe Jan was tired from being up all night working his way through the
> Helmet/Troll thread.

It wasn't a troll, it says so in the subject!

--
tanx,
Howard

"The fickleness of fame and fortune's caprice
Together changed the life of Mason Reese"
Alice Donut

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
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