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UK and Europe
Published
15 September 2004
Last activity
29 September 2004
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Simon Brooke
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  1. quote='PK'Helen Deborah Vecht said:


    Imagine you are flying off your bike, in that split second,
    when you think

    "Oh [censored], despite my best efforts and well practiced safe-falling technique,
    my head IS going to hit the kerb!"

    The high consequence - low probability accident is (literally) staring you
    in the face.

    Are you glad you are not wearing a helmet?

    PK

    ---[/QUOTE]

    Oh, PK you are so tiresomely impervious to the most straightforward stuff (oh well, what else can you expect from a dyed-in-the-wool bigot?)

    It's called Petitio Principii, PK, the fallacy of begging the question. And oh so pretentious PK is doing just that here, tho he lacks the perspicasity to see it.

    What PK seems to be smugly suggesting is that in a "high consequence" situation (which is only apparent post facto) you'd be glad you were wearing a helmet. How do you get it through a bigot's thick skull that taking for granted that a helmet will provide significant protection, what is shown to be erroneous, is assuming the contentious assumptions in order to support the conclusion, and this is fallacious.
    Pk appears, like so many others seems, to get stuck- locked in a loop of circular question begging reasoning. Is there any helping them?

    What gets up my nose is the smug mask of supreme self confidence that he hides behind - all the while unable to see the errors in his assumptions.

    PK - you're a [censored].

    Roger

  2. PK said:

    What gives many people difficulty is the intellectual gyrations some try to
    go through to prove from ultra tenuous data that helmets provide no
    protection and are more dangerous than not wearing one. ISTM that that
    position is just as extreme and just as daft as the Bhit rubbish at the
    other end of the spectrum which sees helmets as some miraculous cure all.

    So you keep saying. What you've failed to explain is why, if this
    position is so impossible, it is supported by all the statistsics
    arising from places where helmets have been made mandatory.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  3. Quoted message said:

    Cause and effect?

    I hardly think so as the numbers of kids taking part in organised cycling was
    not exactly large to start off with - unfortunately.

    Cheers, helen s

    --This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
    to get correct one remove fame & fortune
    h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

    --Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

  4. On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:27:08 +0000 (UTC), "PK"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    What gives many people difficulty is the intellectual gyrations some try to
    go through to prove from ultra tenuous data that helmets provide no
    protection and are more dangerous than not wearing one.

    Talk about risk compensation, possible worsening of rotational
    injuries, failure to mitigate rotational injuries - this is all
    speculation, and inevitable because nobody has successfully
    established why it is that the hospital based studies yield such
    enormously different results from the real world. Other than the
    obvious caveats about their structure, such as the fact that voluntary
    helmet-wearers are likely to be more risk-averse (the most extreme
    example of this sampling bias is probably the 1989 Thompson, Rivara
    and Thompson study).

    My view is that there are small-scale studies which show substantial
    benefit, and large-scale figures which show no benefit at a population
    level (in terms of serious & fatal injuries, which are the stats
    collected by Governments). One of my reasons for being suspicious of
    the likes of Cook & Sheikh is that, when challenged to account for
    this disparity, their response is to repeat the mantra "helmets
    prevent injuries" - or to deny that the disparity exists, or to
    repudiate the suggested mechanisms for the disparity as with Towner
    et. al. as if that somehow makes it go away. Not good enough.

    The people with the time and money to find out what is really going on
    are apparently all too busy trying to prove one side of the argument,
    rather than accepting and studying the documented fact that in real
    populations of cyclists, helmet use appears to have no effect on
    serious & fatal head injuries.

    It would be strange if there were no circumstances where a helmet
    cannot migrate an injury from one side to the other of some arbitrary
    line which defines a serious injury. It would be equally perverse to
    suggest that helmets are more likely to prevent a brain injury than a
    cut or graze (which is what at least two of the hospital studies
    appear to suggest). I am not convinced that a helmet can worsen a
    rotational injury, although I am sure that this has not been properly
    studied. And I am not inclined to believe that cyclists alone among
    road users are not subject to risk compensation. I am very confident
    that New Zealand, for example, provides a reliable indication that
    forcing people to wear helmets has no effect on their safety.

    One of the things which really winds me up, is when a letter in the
    press, or a posting on Usenet, or a feedback on my website, presents
    the latest output from known helmet zealots (Cook & Sheikh again being
    a leading example) as if this is the final clinching proof that
    helmets are a necessary safety measure. Because in every case what
    they are doing is to repeat the same studies, albeit in different
    locations, repeating the sampling bias, and still failing to
    acknowledge or address the fact that nowhere in the world have cyclist
    injuries improved with increasing helmet use.

    I do know from my own work that cycling is not uniquely productive of
    head injuries in children, and I do believe that the best way to
    improve cyclist safety is for more people to cycle. I also know that
    the most survivable crash is the one which you avert - and it seems
    that a majority of cyclists who die of head injuries have other mortal
    injuries as well - so I am pretty confident that reducing stupid
    behaviour like riding without lights, zooming on and off the pavement,
    riding ill-maintained bicycles and so on, would have a massively
    greater effect on cyclist casualties than all the helmet campaigns
    ever devised.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  5. Woody said:

    I am all in favour of making safety compulsory when there is clear evidence
    or there is a danger to 3rd parties e.g. the seat belt law ...

    Bad example. Due to risk compensation seat belts increase the risk for
    cyclists and pedestrians.

    --
    Dave...

    Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

  6. in message <[email hidden]>, PK

    (') said:
    David Martin said:

    On 17/9/04 5:48 pm, in article
    [email hidden], "PK"

    Quoted message said:

    "Oh [censored], despite my best efforts and well practiced
    safe-falling technique, my head IS going to hit the kerb!"

    The high consequence - low probability accident is (literally)
    staring you in the face.

    Are you glad you are not wearing a helmet?

    Are you telling me that you cannot use your arms to move that
    tiny fraction sideways, or even turn your head?

    You are raising an extremely improbable scenario and attempting
    to project it as a general case.
    Doesn't wash.

    Read what I said again, I am specifically NOT projecting it as a
    general case.

    That is the point, we are looking at the extreme end of the
    probability distribution. The low probability-high consequence
    accident.

    Oh, well, if that's the case, what steps are you taking to protect
    against the possibility of a meteorite hitting you, and do you think
    everyone should be compelled to wear, in addition to their lucky
    rabbits foot, their St Christopher medallion, and their polystyrene
    foam deflector beanie, an anti-meteorite helmet? If not, why not? After
    all, a meteorite landing on your head is a low probability, high
    consequence accident.

    If you want to wear a lucky rabbits foot that's fine, don't let me stop
    you. But if you want to compel me (and everyone else) to wear a lucky
    rabbits foot, you really are going to have to show that it actually
    does any good at all, and that the good it does is proportional to the
    nuisance it causes.

    That's the case which hasn't been made.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Ring of great evil
    Small one casts it into flame
    Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron

  7. Quoted message said:

    So you keep saying. What you've failed to explain is why, if this
    position is so impossible, it is supported by all the statistsics
    arising from places where helmets have been made mandatory.

    Where? Give me the figures! And properly adjust them for confounding
    factors (or whatever the jargon is).

  8. Ian Smith said:
    PK said:

    What gives many people difficulty is the intellectual
    gyrations some try to go through to prove from ultra tenuous
    data that helmets provide no protection and are more
    dangerous than not wearing one. ISTM that that position is
    just as extreme and just as daft as the Bhit rubbish at the
    other end of the spectrum which sees helmets as some
    miraculous cure all.

    So you keep saying. What you've failed to explain is why, if
    this position is so impossible, it is supported by all the
    statistsics arising from places where helmets have been made
    mandatory.

    But is is not supported. That explanation is but one postulated explanation
    of the myriad of confusing and contradictory stats.

    I really would like to see an analysis of the stats for:

    1. From which parts of the cycling community head injuries come. The novices
    covering ten's of miles or the experienced cyclists covering 1000's at speed
    in traffic?

    2. The effect of compulsion on different groups. Is the effect of compulsion
    to drive away the novices?

    If the answer to 1, is the experienced cyclists, and the answer to 2, is
    yes, then even if helmets are effective there is likely to be an increase in
    the rate of head injuries per cyclist or per cyclist arriving at hospital.

    There is nothing here arguing to compulsion just to an understanding of the
    confusing stats.

    From what I see the arguments at each end of the spectrum are equally
    extreme and equally based on speculation and prejudice not fact or proper
    analysis

    pk

  9. dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:


    Quoted message said:

    Cause and effect?

    I hardly think so as the numbers of kids taking part in organised cycling was
    not exactly large to start off with - unfortunately.

    Unfortunately true, but it seems to be falling further, at least in the
    'club world'.

    In some areas where there are very pro-youth clubs it is doing well,
    Palmer Park Velo, Team Darenth and Hillingdon Slipstreamers come to
    mind. These are usually where there is a purpose built, or adaptable,
    facility for off-road riding (by off-road I don't mean dirt track or
    MTB). BMX is also doing well, again where there are clubs run by keen
    adults, but again baseing activities around a facility.
    Where there are not such pockets, its a different matter.

    There certainly used to be far more youngsters in TT's than now, where
    the fields are now made up of veterans - I think much of this may be due
    to parents being more protective (or paranoid) than in the past, but
    that said traffic conditions have changed enormously. The focus of TTs
    is, like it or not, fast times and beating one's PB so riders course
    chase to where traffic helps them. I personally think its irresponsible
    for a sport to permit 12 year olds onto multi-lane near motorway courses
    and I suspect most parents would agree.

    In my area there are no easily reachable closed circuits for youth
    massed start riding and this is now also in serious decline as travel
    becomes a Big Factor. Rarely do events close to me get fields of more
    than half-a-dozen, and these are only ridden by children of adults
    already in the sport. In addition I know of several parents who have
    pulled their children from the sport following the drug problems (yes I
    know other sports have the same), but one can hardly blame them.

    What I have found encouraging is the increasing number of youngsters who
    go out with their parents on family rides, ie not part of any "organised
    cycling". I have had several family groups in my training schemes this
    summer who have no interest in 'organised cycling' other than going out
    for rides themselves or with friends.
    They are attracted by the growth of off-road leisure trails and although
    they cart their bikes on the backs of cars to reach them at least they
    do ride.
    I was also encouraged when I ran an informal family ride in the summer
    from the small (rural) town I live in and 20 people turned up - I hadn't
    expected any.

    So whilst "organised' cycling" may not be attracting many youngsters
    there is a lot of hope in other areas. It's just that the balance is
    changing away from clubs into more individual activity.

    John B

  10. Quoted message said:


    Bad example. Due to risk compensation seat belts increase the risk for
    cyclists and pedestrians.

    --
    Dave...


    I really don't buy this risk compensation theory, by which I assume you mean
    I take more risks because as I feel safer due to wearing a helmet whilst
    riding or use a seat belt whilst driving.

    My perception of risk is not determined by feeling that I might survive an
    accident due to a helmet but by experience and thought on how to avoid one
    in the first place. Recent events have led me to modify my riding style to
    be more cautious decending in the wet after coming off. Whilst it is
    impossible to state the exact reasons for the accident (probably rider error
    :-) ), speed did play a part in the outcome (fractured arm) and therefore I
    now descend more cautiously in the wet. This is the result of experience
    (painful) and I can categorticaly state that I would have been going at the
    same rate without the helmet as until recently I did not wear a helmet on my
    daily commute (I did not want it stolen at the station) but now have a
    spare.

    By the way, I am quite willing to state that the helmet made no difference
    to the outcome of my accident as my head came nowhere near the road due to
    my reflex actions on falling, however, I can't convince myself this will
    always be the case so I wear one usually. After having a very painful arm
    and hip, however, that full kevlar body armour is looking very attractive.

    Woody

  11. Woody said:

    I really don't buy this risk compensation theory, by which I assume you mean
    I take more risks because as I feel safer due to wearing a helmet whilst
    riding or use a seat belt whilst driving.

    Doesn't matter whether you "buy" it or not. It's a well established
    phenomenon.

    --
    Dave...

    Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

  12. Woody said:

    I really don't buy this risk compensation theory, by which I assume you mean
    I take more risks because as I feel safer due to wearing a helmet whilst
    riding or use a seat belt whilst driving.

    Let's put it another way. If you ride a mountain bike, imagine a really
    difficult downhill (at least 1 in 4) with tree roots, boulders and
    slippy clay. Would you dare to ride it, just once, *not* wearing a
    helmet and/or body armour? If the answer is "no" then that's risk
    compensation, i.e. you'd take risks wearing a helmet that you otherwise
    wouldn't.

  13. Helen Deborah Vecht said:

    Lots of people don't have their chinstaps 'snug'.
    Less discomfort but much less protection...


    And I suppose that's what I'd do if there was ever a MHL for adults. As
    well as Guy's excellent suggestion of stencilling "F**K MARTLEW" on each
    side ;-)

  14. "Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:414c858b.0@entanet...

    Quoted message said:

    Let's put it another way. If you ride a mountain bike, imagine a really
    difficult downhill (at least 1 in 4) with tree roots, boulders and slippy
    clay. Would you dare to ride it, just once, *not* wearing a helmet and/or
    body armour? If the answer is "no" then that's risk compensation, i.e.
    you'd take risks wearing a helmet that you otherwise wouldn't.

    There are many activities where the wearing of protective clothing is
    necessary or at least advised e.g. American football and motorcycling. This
    is due to a conscious evaluation of the risks and appropriate measures taken
    to reduce the risk of injury. This is what has taken place with my decision
    to wear a helmet in the first place i.e. I consider the act of cycling to
    have a certain level of risk of injury that I wish to reduce. However, what
    I am querying is the contention that because I have evaluated this risk I
    then raise the level of my 'recklessness' therefore negating the steps I
    have taken in reducing the risk.

    Woody

  15. On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:19:36 GMT, "Woody"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    There are many activities where the wearing of protective clothing is
    necessary or at least advised e.g. American football and motorcycling.

    But cycling is comparable in risk with being a pedestrian. Do you
    wear a helmet when walking alongside the road?

    Quoted message said:

    However, what
    I am querying is the contention that because I have evaluated this risk I
    then raise the level of my 'recklessness' therefore negating the steps I
    have taken in reducing the risk.

    There are a number of answers to that.

    One is: look at real world data such as that from New Zealand. They
    have some quite detailed data which shows that when helmet wearing
    rates rose from 43% to over 95% in a three year period, there was no
    measurable change in the head injury rate for cyclists. The clear
    implication is that helmets caused as many injuries as they saved.
    There is also some evidence that the number of non-head injuries has
    gone up in Australia following compulsion, where, again, head injury
    rates have not declined - indicating more crashes than before.

    Another is: why should you think cyclists are uniquely immune to this
    effect? It is well documented - have a quick look at
    <url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation>. A paper ion
    Paediatrics addressed this question for children and came to the
    following conclusion: "The results indicate that risk compensation may
    modify the effectiveness of PE for children engaged in sports and
    leisure activities. Conversely, the findings also suggest that those
    wearing PE may be a cautious subgroup."

    A third is: do you feel vulnerable when not wearing your helmet? That
    alone is proof!

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  16. in message <[email hidden]>, Woody

    (') said:

    This is what has taken place with my decision
    to wear a helmet in the first place i.e. I consider the act of cycling
    to have a certain level of risk of injury that I wish to reduce.

    But cycling is, mile for mile, safer than walking; and, year for year,
    safer than sitting on your sofa. What special protective clothing do
    you wear to protect yourself while walking? What special protective
    clothing do you wear when sitting on your sofa? And are you going to
    insist that everyone else has to wear it too?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; all in all you're just another click in the call
    ;; -- Minke Bouyed

  17. Simon Brooke said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is what has taken place with my decision
    to wear a helmet in the first place i.e. I consider the act of cycling
    to have a certain level of risk of injury that I wish to reduce.

    But cycling is, mile for mile, safer than walking; and, year for year,
    safer than sitting on your sofa. What special protective clothing do
    you wear to protect yourself while walking? What special protective
    clothing do you wear when sitting on your sofa? And are you going to
    insist that everyone else has to wear it too?

    And anyway, even on sofas there are preventative measures - like making
    sure you use it correctly - which make far more difference than a bit of
    headgear. The other evening I was driving home and a pair of twits,
    dressed in black, on a black sofa, came shooting out of a dimly-lit side
    street onto the main road - you'd think they had a death-wish. Then you
    see the sofas jumping red lights, bouncing on and off the pavements,
    going the wrong way down one-way streets.

    Obviously a sofa is a pretty safe place to be. But if you go around on
    it like an idiot, as with any other vehicle, you're going to get hurt
    eventually.

    Daniele
    --
    Apple Juice Ltd
    Chapter Arts Centre
    Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
    Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140

  18. On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:55:50 +0100,
    [email hidden] (D.M. Procida) wrote in
    message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously a sofa is a pretty safe place to be. But if you go around on
    it like an idiot, as with any other vehicle, you're going to get hurt
    eventually.

    Here is an excellent example of how it should be done:

    <url:http://www.bikeforest.com/CouchBikeMaritimes.wmv>

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  19. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    ..>

    Quoted message said:

    But cycling is comparable in risk with being a pedestrian. Do you
    wear a helmet when walking alongside the road?

    The risk of an accident may be the same but the consequences are not
    (assuming a 3rd party is not involved). Even at my fastest walking pace I
    rarely exceed 4mph, on the bike I am usually riding at 15mph or so. I am
    not trying to say that wearing a helmet reduces the risk of an accident
    merely that in my opinion (which I fully accept is not proven by scientific
    studies) it may reduce the injuries that result. Other people have
    different opinions and feel that wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck
    injury and therefore choose not to wear one. I fully respect that choice
    and hope they respect my opposite choice.

    Quoted message said:


    There are a number of answers to that.

    One is: look at real world data such as that from New Zealand. They
    have some quite detailed data which shows that when helmet wearing
    rates rose from 43% to over 95% in a three year period, there was no
    measurable change in the head injury rate for cyclists. The clear
    implication is that helmets caused as many injuries as they saved.
    There is also some evidence that the number of non-head injuries has
    gone up in Australia following compulsion, where, again, head injury
    rates have not declined - indicating more crashes than before.

    This can be interpreted in many different ways (lies, damn lies and
    statistics :-) ). One is that it proves that helmets are useless in
    preventing injury rather than increasing the chance of it.

    Quoted message said:

    Another is: why should you think cyclists are uniquely immune to this
    effect? It is well documented - have a quick look at
    <url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation>. A paper ion
    Paediatrics addressed this question for children and came to the
    following conclusion: "The results indicate that risk compensation may
    modify the effectiveness of PE for children engaged in sports and
    leisure activities. Conversely, the findings also suggest that those
    wearing PE may be a cautious subgroup."

    A third is: do you feel vulnerable when not wearing your helmet? That
    alone is proof!


    I feel no more vulnerable with or without it, what I hope (rather than
    expect) is that in certain circumstances it may protect my head if I crash.
    This small chance to me is worth the cost of a helmet as I find wearing it
    to be comfortable (or to please the pedants, not as uncomfortable as it
    could be)

    I am totally pro-choice, I just slightly resent being told that because I
    choose for my own personal reasons to wear a helmet that

    a) I need my head examining
    b) I must be very uncomfortable
    c) I am encouraging pro-compulsion
    d) I ride more recklessly

    Still each to their own and I will still wave to any cyclists I see, helmet
    wearers or not. Actually perhaps I better not as this will probably cause
    them to have an accident due to taking a hand off the bars and I could get
    sued....damn this risky pastime.

    I will now shut up on the matter as I am sure all this is doing is airing
    entrenched views over and over again. But thanks Guy and all the others for
    taking the time to reply to my previous posts.

    Woody

  20. Woody said:

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    .>

    Quoted message said:

    But cycling is comparable in risk with being a pedestrian. Do you
    wear a helmet when walking alongside the road?

    The risk of an accident may be the same but the consequences are not
    (assuming a 3rd party is not involved).

    What warrants that assumption?

    Besides, the records that show that cycling is safer than walking are
    based on outcomes of incidents (ie counts of KSI) rather than number
    of incidents.

    Quoted message said:

    Even at my fastest walking pace I
    rarely exceed 4mph, on the bike I am usually riding at 15mph or so. I am
    not trying to say that wearing a helmet reduces the risk of an accident
    merely that in my opinion (which I fully accept is not proven by scientific
    studies) it may reduce the injuries that result.

    Indeed, it may. It'll reduce minor abrasions and bruises. No more than
    that.

    Quoted message said:

    Other people have
    different opinions and feel that wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck
    injury and therefore choose not to wear one. I fully respect that choice
    and hope they respect my opposite choice.

    If it weren't for the Government's stance that it is only low levels
    of take up that prevents a MHL, I'd agree and I'd not bother getting
    involved in helmet debates.

    However, as your choice is likely to effect my freedom of choice I'll
    take every opportunity to challenge helmet-wearers who do so because
    of flawed logic.

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