Basic navigational skills badly missing

[email hidden] wrote

Quoted message said:

Mike said:

So a GPS would would have been no use to us,

Hey, my case is that GPS is harmless. Not that it's especially useful.
As a sailor I'm amazed people on land full of features would even
bother with it half the time.

Most of us don't, most of the time. You only need one when you are
unsure of your position, but I like to look at the walk plotted on a map
afterwards, and to know the distance, time, height gain etc.
--
Gordon Harris

Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What a ludicrous idea! Can you give one example of someone following a
GPS track on foot off the edge of a cliff? The idea is laughable!

Looking back up this branch of the thread, it seems to have originated
from a discussion of what to do in a whiteout. In a whiteout, you
can't see anything. So no, not that strange an idea.

But that is less likely if you have a GPS! You stand a chance then
of following the safe pre-plotted route down, rather than walking
blindly downhill, or trying to follow the cairns which have been
destroyed by.... (sorry, Martin).
--
Gordon Harris

Bootlaces <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:23:12 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote :

<->

Quoted message said:

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

Cruel, but amusing.

No need for levers if they'd rocked her gently from side to side.

(Rooney will understand)........
--
Gordon Harris

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:32:49 +0000, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:23:12 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote :

<->

Quoted message said:

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

Cruel, but amusing.

No need for levers if they'd rocked her gently from side to side.

(Rooney will understand)........

(-:
--

Paul Rooney

Colin MacDonald said:

Paul,

Sorry to pick on you, but your post is an example of why these
arguments go on so long. Let me explain...

<snip>

Given that a GPS does everything a compass can do plus a lot more
besides, I can't really see what the argument is about anyway. It's
not like comparing a car with a bike, since a bike allows you to do
things that you can't do in a car. It's more like comparing a Swiss
Army multi-gadget thing with a single-bladed penknife.

Anyway, it's good to see this ng is back to normal, with long GPS
threads developing, and Paul S back on form!

(My own opinion is that the reason why the arguments go on so long is
that so many people are, as Paul has said, Luddites.)

--

Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

On flat ground maybe. You'd be pretty brave to trust GPS for blind nav
on a mountain in whiteout.

Why on earth do you say that, just to be argumentative while being
plain wrong at the same time? You Trollin?

The navigational aid capabilites are not diminished by visibility for
the human eye. You said yourself that a GPS tells you where you are.
When you can't see anything else what else are you going to use for
navigation? Don't go all pedantic on me and talk about the
navigational skills Pete mentioned with compass, map and pacing for
whiteout conditions - that level of skill is possessed by few people.

You say you're a sailor; you ever been offshore when the fog has come
in and wanted to find your harbour? I have and a GPS is the only tool
that would do that for you.

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

On flat ground maybe. You'd be pretty brave to trust GPS for blind nav
on a mountain in whiteout.

Quite a lot of mountains /are/ flat in fairly large chunks.

There are also places renowned for being a nightmare for navigation by
/trad/ means (that's why Nav Skill Courses are run there ;-)
-undulating, flat, confusing on the eye.

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Pedantic c**t.

If you think I'm just trying to score points then think again.
There is
no shortage of UK upland without steep slopes and crags, I'm not
referring to odd isolated examples that can generally just be ignored.

Congratulations:

Man, you've got issues!

Quoted message said:

I foolishly categorised two GPS use scenarios as
mountain and flat. In fact I should have pointed out that they are in
no way mutually exclusive and that when I said mountain I meant
mountain near bits with potential for getting hurt. Good show, well
batted.

I think you're blind to the fact that what you suggest you wrote would
have been correctly interpretted.

BTW "mountain [near] bits with a potential for getting hurt" applies
to all "mountain", anywhere... bit like the sea really, all aspects
can be perilous, some aspects more readily than others.

SteveO said:

You say you're a sailor; you ever been offshore when the fog has come
in and wanted to find your harbour? I have and a GPS is the only tool
that would do that for you.

Marine GPS is integrated with real-time mapping and position
indication.
As you imply, absolutely priceless but it offers a level of
sophistication way
beynd the capabilities of most handheld GPS which are fairly simple
positioning audit devices and require a level of skill and practice to
use
properly, as does the marine equivelent to be fair. A GPS per se does
not
increase the owners ability to save themeslves from the Darwin effect.
Knowledge of how to use the tool appropriately in the conditions is
what is
required and the same goes for a map and compass.

Chris

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:10:08 +0000, SteveO wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

the
navigational skills Pete mentioned with compass, map and pacing for
whiteout conditions - that level of skill is possessed by few people.

I defy anyone to use pacing with any degree of accuracy in deep,
boulder-strewn heather. Often you can't maintain anything like a
straight line even for a few yards. Ditto with saltmarsh,
criss-crossed with channels (a scary place to be in thick fog).

--

Paul Rooney

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

No-one has suggested that people should take a GPS instead of a map
or compass.

Quoted message said:

Directly said, no. Implied, even if by accident, I think they have.

Or inferred even...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The simple fact remains, though, that once they were
stuck/lost/whatever and chose to ring the MR it would have saved the
MR a great deal of time, and involved less risk to the rescuers, if
they'd had a GR to go to rather than having to search a large area.

Yet the MRTs are not making a point of saying this, despite it being
/their/ time and effort which might be spared.

Exactly. The proud arrogant MRTs who just won't accept the advantages of
modern technological developments. One could even call them Luddites...

Where on earth did you get the idea that they (MRTs) won't accept the
advantages of modern technological developments? You must be completely
mad!

--

Dominic Sexton

Paul Rooney said:

I defy anyone to use pacing with any degree of accuracy in deep,
boulder-strewn heather. Often you can't maintain anything like a
straight line even for a few yards. Ditto with saltmarsh,
criss-crossed with channels (a scary place to be in thick fog).

Indeed the case that there are many instances when a GPS is a frankly
better tool than a compass and pacing, or whatever. But have there
traditionally been huge problems with masses of MRT callouts any time
fog descends over boulder strewn heather? Not AFAICT. The issue I'm
arguing isn't "is this a better tool?" but is it a tool which makes an
unreasonably high risk reasonable? Since the lack of problems most
people have getting back illustrates that the basic risk is *not*
unreasonably high it's all rather moot.

I put myself at greater risk of an accident here by using the stairs
rather than the lift. I use the stairs because I just prefer to use the
stairs, even though it takes a bit longer (I have to go out of my way to
get to the staircase). Is this "daft"? Depends on your risk
thresholds... For mine and stairs, and most people and walking without
a GPS, the risk threshold isn't high enough to have a need to go and
spend money to overcome it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Paul Rooney said:

Given that a GPS does everything a compass can do plus a lot more
besides, I can't really see what the argument is about anyway.

Not every GPS can tell you which way north is, and if it does I'm
guessing it'll be harder to, for example, take a bearing off a distant
object. But it really doesn't matter how capable, or otherwise, a GPS
is, some owners will regard non-users as moronic idiots, while
non-users will regard the unit itself as a tool of satan.

Personally I can't justify spending the better part of 300 quid on a
GPS that would do the stuff that I'd want it to. But I'm determinedly
non-evangelistic about it.

Colin

Simon Caldwell said:

On the other hand, the combination of GPS plus mobile phone has done
more than anything else in recent years to reduce the self-reliance of
those on the hill.

I don't agree with you, I feel its more down to accessibility; for
instance, cars are more reliable (comfortable) and its easy to get to
a place where you can heave out of a car and onto a hill. "Better"
equipment, i.e. the "latest greatest" jacket has also prolly
engendered a false sense of security. I'm sure there's more to the
list, too.

Quoted message said:

Why bother learning to navigate if you can just
follow the arrow on the GPS?

Sorry Simon, but that's "tabloid dismissiveness"; to get an arrow to
display on a GPS at all you have to tell it where you want to go... to
do that you have to know how to read a map (ergo navigate); how else
do you derive the co-ordinates you then need to program into the GPS?

Quoted message said:

And if that fails, just phone MRT.

The mobile phone has prolly become _the_ tool (sic.) that singularly
has lured most of those who get into trouble into the situation where
they are endangered.

Colin MacDonald said:

Paul Rooney said:

Given that a GPS does everything a compass can do plus a lot more
besides, I can't really see what the argument is about anyway.

Not every GPS can tell you which way north is, and if it does I'm
guessing it'll be harder to, for example, take a bearing off a distant
object. But it really doesn't matter how capable, or otherwise, a GPS
is, some owners will regard non-users as moronic idiots, while
non-users will regard the unit itself as a tool of satan.

Personally I can't justify spending the better part of 300 quid on a
GPS that would do the stuff that I'd want it to. But I'm determinedly
non-evangelistic about it.

Colin

300 squid?! That's almost a month's beer money! But you can buy very
good ones a lot cheaper than that. Mind you, some people don't think
twice about spending that on a jacket (though it's more than the cost
of all my walking clothes put together, and they are up to the job).
--

Paul Rooney

Peter Clinch said:

Compare the number of walkers to the number of MRT callouts for being
lost. Most people are well inside their ability envelope.

But, perhaps, outside their ability to put [paper?] skills into
practice?

I know how to fly an F16 fighter, but put me in a real one!! ;-)

Colin MacDonald said:

Not every GPS can tell you which way north is, and if it does I'm
guessing it'll be harder to, for example, take a bearing off a distant
object.

I can't really see that much need for doing that, but I note that better
orienteers typically use a thumb mounted compass with broad colour bands
as a rough scale rather than protractor and individual degree
graduations. They do this because a quick indication of orientation is
all they typically need a compass for. For this it is quicker, lighter
and easier than using a protractor compass, never mind a GPS.

Can it do lots of other things that a GPS can do? It can't even do all
the things a typical protractor compass does! But if your personal
needs don't include those things it's by the by.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Paul Saunders said:

And that's a big part of the problem as I see it. The general concensus
amongst MRTs that a GPS is not essential is a major problem in its own
right. Clearly walkers getting lost is a big issue, but walkers carrying
the most amazing navigation device the world has ever seen? Apparently
that's not important! They'd rather criticise people for not having real
navigational skills with antique equpment, rather than for not spending a
few quid on something that would give their precise position, irrespective
of whether they had any navigational skills or not.

AFAICT that is nonsense. It comes across to me in the people I talk to
that the important thing is that people are free to use the hills on
their own terms, and the fact that the members want to be free to go on
their own terms underpins their respect for others' terms.

Pete, sorry not ganging up on you here ;-) but its easy to see where
that "warm and fluffy" laisser faire can start to come apart at the
seams; expand the envelope of "hill use" to scrambling and then
climbing and you very quickly enter an area where you *should* be
berated if your equipment is below a certain level and you
subsequently get into trouble. Winter walking on steep snow slopes
without an iceaxe is something else that I would similarly categorise.
I'd also be prepared to argue the point that crampons are de rigeur in
that environment too.

Then the /laisser faire/ also peels apart when [ustfiable] criticism
is made of folk who do get into trouble.

But I also agree with what I interpret from what you're saying that
being proscriptive a difficilt position to defend.

In article <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

or sweetcorn.

What's wrong with cold sweetcorn?

<shudder> It's just meant to be hot... 🙂

It's meant to be binned - hot or cold, yuk.

Quoted message said:

(It's taken me a long time to get my head round cold pasta too.)

Cold pasta, yum! Cold curry, yum! Cold pizza yum!

--

Dominic Sexton

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Given that a GPS does everything a compass can do

Take a bearing from a map or plot a bearing on a map?

--

Dominic Sexton