General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Medical Scientism is at a Standstill

N-H-P · 2003-09-14T07:10:40+00:00

The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation. Discussions of Vitalism, Holism, and Variation are often over analyzed to the point of absurdity due to the scientism of academic reductionism. The concept of Holism should be applied for proper understanding of these ancient systems which demands integration rather than the disintegrative force of reductionism. Vitalism as opposed to the Mechanism of Medical Scientism ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In *all* Natural Health paradigms all healing is essentially self-healing, a basic property of all living beings. Vitalism is an ancient concept that can be traced back to the 'vis medicatrix naturae' of Hippocrates (c.460-377BC), the Father of Medicine, who wrote "the natural healing force within us is the greatest force in getting well." In *all* Natural Health paradigms Self-Healing is Paramount. The in-built natural healing process is respected and recruited during treatment, although it is not necessarily understood. Mechanism (http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/mechanism.html) is the "philosophical theory about the nature of organic systems, holding that organisms are machines in the sense that they are material systems. Mechanism seeks to explain biological processes, including behavior, within the framework of classical physics and chemistry. The mechanistic approach has caused great controversy and is considered by its opponents, including vitalists (who contend that living organisms must be explained in terms of a mysterious self-determining principle rather than in physical or chemical terms) as inadequate and oversimplified." Holism as opposed to the Reductionism of Medical Scientism -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In *all* Natural Health paradigms healing is a concerted effort of the entire organism and cannot be achieved by any part in isolation from the whole. Holism is an ancient concept that can be traced back to Paracelsus (1439-1541) , the father of modern medicine, who insisted on treating the whole being rather than merely the part displaying disease. Vitalism aphorisms of Paracelsus include: "The art of healing comes from Nature, not the physician;" and "A man could not be born alive and healthy were there not already a Physician hidden in him." Reductionism (http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/FLAOH/cbnhtml/glossary-R.html#reductionism) is "the idea that nature can be understood by dissection. In other words, knowing the lowest-level details of how things work (at, say, the level of subatomic physics) reveals how higher-level phenomena come about. This is a bottom-up way of looking at the universe, and is the exact opposite of holism." Variation as opposed to the Statistic of Medical Scientism --------------------------------------------------------------------- Variation means human patients are exceedingly complex and highly variable. Alternative Medicine is about patent centered treatment which addresses a patient's individual needs as opposed to the managed care protocol of modern medicine which treats each patient as just a Statistic. Modern Medicine is about diagnostic and therapeutic algorithms that are to be followed exactly in respect to a given clinical situation under the very real threat of disciplinary action and even litigation. Under the protection of methods of modern medicine, if a patient dies that is only a Statistic! Scientism (http://www.webref.org/anthropology/s/scientism.htm) is "the belief that there is one and only one method of science and that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research." In Conclusion: ----------------- The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical scientism that scientism as a parody of science is at a standstill despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault lying in their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. 🙂 The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to inform medical scientism that there is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂 In short, medical scientism is a scam. 🙂 Additional information on Science and Holism can be found at: http://www.starcourse.org/pussycat.htm -- John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/empowerment.html Email: [email hidden] www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and resisting the categorization of life's problems as medical.

Started by N-H-P · 14 September 2003 · Last activity 14 September 2003 · 62 posts · 5,912 views

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Original section: General fitness, health and nutrition
Published: 14 September 2003
Last activity: 14 September 2003
Original author: N-H-P
Posts: 62
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 5,912
Views / 30 days: 7
Topics: Nutrition Hydration

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Original post
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:10 UTC #1

The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on three
concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation.
Discussions of Vitalism, Holism, and Variation are often over analyzed to the point of absurdity due
to the scientism of academic reductionism. The concept of Holism should be applied for proper
understanding of these ancient systems which demands integration rather than the disintegrative
force of reductionism.
Vitalism as opposed to the Mechanism of Medical Scientism
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In *all* Natural Health paradigms all healing is essentially self-healing, a basic property of all
living beings. Vitalism is an ancient concept that can be traced back to the 'vis medicatrix
naturae' of Hippocrates (c.460-377BC), the Father of Medicine, who wrote "the natural healing force
within us is the greatest force in getting well."
In *all* Natural Health paradigms Self-Healing is Paramount. The in-built natural healing process is
respected and recruited during treatment, although it is not necessarily understood.
Mechanism (bartleby.commechanism.html) is the "philosophical theory about the
nature of organic systems, holding that organisms are machines in the sense that they are material
systems. Mechanism seeks to explain biological processes, including behavior, within the framework
of classical physics and chemistry. The mechanistic approach has caused great controversy and is
considered by its opponents, including vitalists (who contend that living organisms must be
explained in terms of a mysterious self-determining principle rather than in physical or chemical
terms) as inadequate and oversimplified."
Holism as opposed to the Reductionism of Medical Scientism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In *all* Natural Health paradigms healing is a concerted effort of the entire organism and cannot be
achieved by any part in isolation from the whole. Holism is an ancient concept that can be traced
back to Paracelsus (1439-1541) , the father of modern medicine, who insisted on treating the whole
being rather than merely the part displaying disease. Vitalism aphorisms of Paracelsus include: "The
art of healing comes from Nature, not the physician;" and "A man could not be born alive and healthy
were there not already a Physician hidden in him."
Reductionism (mitpress.mit.eduglossary R.html) is "the idea
that nature can be understood by dissection. In other words, knowing the lowest-level details of how
things work (at, say, the level of subatomic physics) reveals how higher-level phenomena come about.
This is a bottom-up way of looking at the universe, and is the exact opposite of holism."
Variation as opposed to the Statistic of Medical Scientism
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Variation means human patients are exceedingly complex and highly variable. Alternative Medicine is
about patent centered treatment which addresses a patient's individual needs as opposed to the
managed care protocol of modern medicine which treats each patient as just a Statistic. Modern
Medicine is about diagnostic and therapeutic algorithms that are to be followed exactly in respect
to a given clinical situation under the very real threat of disciplinary action and even litigation.
Under the protection of methods of modern medicine, if a patient dies that is only a Statistic!
Scientism (webref.orgscientism.htm) is "the belief that there is one and
only one method of science and that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
In Conclusion:
-----------------
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical scientism that scientism as a
parody of science is at a standstill despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault
lying in their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. 🙂
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to inform medical scientism that
there is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure
Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂
In short, medical scientism is a scam. 🙂
Additional information on Science and Holism can be found at: starcourse.orgpussycat.htm
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate home.naturalhealthperspective.comempowerment.html
Email: [email hidden] www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and
resisting the categorization of life's problems as medical.

Report
Lad
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #2

[email hidden] (N-H-P) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on three
concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation.

Can't argue with too much of this, except:
1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be much more comfortable seeing a
separatist, materialist ER surgeon, than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially pull the plug on you after 40
or so. Following "natural impulses," we would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in our
30's, and probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
To overcome some of these evolutionary limitations, I've very happy to see the development of
"synthetic, industrial drugs" such as mitoQ and spintrap compounds coming along in my lifetime.

Report
Bil
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #3

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Quoted message said:

The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to inform medical scientism that
there is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure
Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂
The vast majority of "Natural Health" paradigms are anything but natural.
You want natural health? Do not touch anything mankind has ever modified through selective breeding
or produced through industry.
Prepare (on average, and in most parts of the world) to repeatedly bear children from age 14 to 35,
to be a great-grandparent at age 45, and to be dead before
50.
That's natural.
Natural as it is, it may actually be the way to save humanity from extinction, though I can't judge
the validity of this idea. Of course on an individual basis, it's also slow suicide, but you should
have the freedom to choose suicide if that's your preference.
- Bil

Report
Peter Moran
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #4

If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill? Since "scientism" is being rejected,
none of the medical knowledge that has been gained in the last two centuries, through the
application of reductionist and experimental approaches to medicine, can be applied in the answer.
That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by witch doctors would be one
acceptable answer.
99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts. The only difference between it
and real science is the lack of experimental confirmation of the various mechanistic and
therapeutic claims.
You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of knowledge. Some would see
this as humbug..
Peter Moran

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #5

Quoted message said:
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 3:37 AM !!!First Boot!!!
Quoted message said:
If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill?
There are many ways to put it.
When you live contrary to the requirements of Mother Nature your body responds. When you run your
body into the ground by living an unnatural life, you should expect to become ill. It is only
"Natural."
"It matters not what your present age is or what your physical condition is. If you obey nature's
laws, you can be [physically] born again." --Paul C. Bragg, ND, Ph.D.
Quoted message said:
That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by witch doctors would be one
acceptable answer.
Dr. Bragg liked to spread his message using a Religious Born Again style of preaching. But, I can
assure you that evil demons have absolutely nothing to do with poor health.
Illness is about living contrary to the laws of nature.
Quoted message said:
99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts. The only difference between it
and real science is the lack of experimental confirmation of the various mechanistic and
therapeutic claims.
Scientism webref.orgscientism.htm is "the belief that there is one and
only one method of science and that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
Scientism says that there is *only* one way of doing it.
Scientism is clearly WRONG!
Quoted message said:
You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of knowledge. Some would see
this as humbug..
Medical Scientism scams people "by pretending to [have] a higher order of knowledge." 🙂
Medical Scientism is humbug. 🙂
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science! naturalhealthperspective.comnaturalhealthperspective.com The
ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about prevention.

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #6

Quoted message said:
From: "Steve Harris" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 5:36 AM
Quoted message said:
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time because of a swimming pool
accident.
Quoted message said:
What, he drowned? Details, please.
Details of Paul's life are stretchy on the WEB and reports of his death vary.
But, it appears that he lived a very active athletic lifestyle in Hawaii until his late 90's.
Apparently, Paul C. Bragg died in the ocean surf in Hawaii. I could very easily visualize Bragg
being caught in some kind of strong undertow?
Bragg's sister who is still running his health business and runs the Bragg web site states that he
died at the age of 97. She provides two different accounts of his death, one time she says he died
in the ocean. The other account says he died in a swimming pool accident.
What is important here, is Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to his late nineties. While his age might be
attributed to his genetics, his quality of life came from his lifestyle. He definitely was *not*
living in a nursing home. He was living up a very active lifestyle in Hawaii in his late 90's.
Here, are some web sources of information on Bragg's death.
chetday.comhealthgurus.htm From the accounts I've read, Paul Bragg died a robust and healthy
man in his 90's in a swimming accident in Hawaii.
towardsfreedom.comTheJesusDiet.html
Dr. Bragg was as fit as a teenager when he was killed in a swimming accident at age 96.
geocities.comeightwo.html Writer Paul Bragg, who influenced Jack Lalane, made
it to 96 with all his teeth and normal vision, running 5 miles a day and swimming a mile on
occasion. Alas due to an unfortunate accident Paul Bragg is no longer with us.
veggi-green.comveggi-green.com Many others have come earlier to the same or similar diet, such as Paul
Bragg who died at the age of 99 of an accident while surfing in the ocean!
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
groups.yahoo.comHealth with Attitude

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:11 UTC #7

(lad) said:
N-H-P wrote:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on
three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation.
Quoted message said:
1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be much more comfortable seeing a
separatist, materialist ER surgeon, than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
Natural Health Healing Therapies and Alternative medicine are absolutely not about medical
emergencies.
They are certainly not about sewing some fool back together again, either.
Quoted message said:
2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially pull the plug on you after
40 or so. Following "natural impulses," we would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in
our 30's, and probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
You are just quibbling over semantics.
You are making a typical academic argument which is of absolutely no value to anybody who has to
live in the real world.
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time because of a swimming pool
accident. Probably his most famous pupil is Jack LaLanne. Jack LaLanne is going stronger than ever
at the age of 88. And, at 88 Jack looks like he is only in his 50's. Both of them are great
athletes. I am sure that Jack will live to see his 100th birthday.
Quoted message said:
To overcome some of these evolutionary limitations, I've very happy to see the development of
"synthetic, industrial drugs" such as mitoQ and spintrap compounds coming along in my lifetime.
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Ph.D and Jack LaLanne were never druggies.
There is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure
Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science! naturalhealthperspective.comnaturalhealthperspective.com The
ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about prevention.

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:12 UTC #8

Quoted message said:
From: Bil [email hidden] Date: 5/14/03 8:29 PM
Quoted message said:
The vast majority of "Natural Health" paradigms are anything but

natural.
Quoted message said:
You want natural health? Do not touch anything mankind has ever
modified through selective breeding or produced through industry.
This is another academic nonsensical argument over semantics. When you can not attack the
fundamentals, critics like to go for the superficial.
Thanks for proving my points!
Quoted message said:
Of course on an individual basis, it's also slow suicide, but you should have the freedom to choose
suicide if that's your preference.
It is a fundament point of my personal health program that modern man has forgotten what "Natural"
is. My web site on Natural Health exists to educate those of you interested about prevention and
healthy lifestyles.
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy. You've got to eat right, think
right, train right. Fitness is a full time job." -- Jack LaLanne
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!
The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is the foundation of the biomedical model of natural health.
Weighing in at 17 webpages, Nutrition (www.Food.NaturalHealthPerspective.com/) is now with more
documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.

Report
Steve Harris
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:12 UTC #9

Anybody else reading such varied accounts would conclude that none of them is reliable, and that
therefore the age isn't either. They look like a collection of urban myths.
Not that making it into your 90's without being institutionalized is all that amazing. You must have
missed the PBS special on people over 100 in America. At least one guy was still jogging.
Sure, they cherry picked. But so do the health nuts. I can give you a long list of prematurely dead
health gurus.
"N-H-P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
From: "Steve Harris" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 5:36 AM
Quoted message said:
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time because of a swimming
pool accident.
Quoted message said:
What, he drowned? Details, please.
Details of Paul's life are stretchy on the WEB and reports

of
Quoted message said:
his death vary.
But, it appears that he lived a very active athletic

lifestyle
Quoted message said:
in Hawaii until his late 90's. Apparently, Paul C. Bragg

died
Quoted message said:
in the ocean surf in Hawaii. I could very easily

visualize
Quoted message said:
Bragg being caught in some kind of strong undertow?
Bragg's sister who is still running his health business

and
Quoted message said:
runs the Bragg web site states that he died at the age of

97.
Quoted message said:
She provides two different accounts of his death, one time

she
Quoted message said:
says he died in the ocean. The other account says he died

in
Quoted message said:
a swimming pool accident.
What is important here, is Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to his late nineties. While his age might
be attributed

to
Quoted message said:
his genetics, his quality of life came from his lifestyle. He definitely was *not* living in a
nursing home. He was living up a very active lifestyle in Hawaii in his late

90's.
Quoted message said:

Here, are some web sources of information on Bragg's

death.
Quoted message said:

chetday.comhealthgurus.htm From the accounts I've read, Paul Bragg died a robust and

healthy man
Quoted message said:
in his 90's in a swimming accident in Hawaii.
towardsfreedom.comTheJesusDiet.html
Dr. Bragg was as fit as a teenager when he was killed in a swimming accident at age 96.
geocities.comeightwo.html Writer Paul Bragg, who influenced Jack Lalane,
made it to 96 with all his teeth and normal vision, running 5 miles a day and swimming a mile on
occasion. Alas due to an unfortunate accident Paul Bragg is no longer with us.
veggi-green.comveggi-green.com Many others have come earlier to the same or similar diet, such as
Paul Bragg who died at the age of 99 of an accident while surfing in the ocean!
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
groups.yahoo.comHealth with Attitude

Report
Steve Harris
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:12 UTC #10

"N-H-P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Quoted message said:
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died

before his time
Quoted message said:
because of a swimming pool accident.
What, he drowned? Details, please.

Report
Mark Probert
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:12 UTC #11

N-H-P said:
(lad) said:
N-H-P wrote:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on
three concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation.
Quoted message said:
1) If I'm in a car accident and have my legs hanging off, I will be much more comfortable seeing a
separatist, materialist ER surgeon, than, say, a homeopath or vitalist.
Natural Health Healing Therapies and Alternative medicine are absolutely not about medical
emergencies.
They are certainly not about sewing some fool back together again, either.
Quoted message said:
2) How "Natural" do we want to become? Evolution and genes essentially pull the plug on you after
40 or so. Following "natural impulses," we would have mated in our teens, be grandparents in
our 30's, and probably go bye-bye soon afterwards.
You are just quibbling over semantics.
You are making a typical academic argument which is of absolutely no value to anybody who has to
live in the real world.
Paul C. Bragg, ND, Phd lived to the age of 97 and died before his time because of a swimming pool
accident.
Uh-oh..another overdose of a homeopathic concoction.

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #12

Quoted message said:
From: "Steve Harris" [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 5:12 PM !!!First Boot!!!
Quoted message said:
Anybody else reading such varied accounts would conclude that none of them is reliable, and that
therefore the age isn't either. They look like a collection of urban myths.
Until I have better information that indicates anything different I am going with a drowning death
at the age of 97.
Of course, I have seen plenty of pictures of him while he was alive. Jack LaLanne was 15 years old
when he was transformed by Bragg. I got one picture of both LaLanne and Bragg shaking hands
together. You can do the math, Steve. Bragg died in good health at a ripe old age. 🙂
Besides, my primary interest is Jack LaLanne. The fact that both exercised a lot and both lived to a
ripe old age makes Bragg icing on the cake.
Quoted message said:
Not that making it into your 90's without being institutionalized is all that amazing. You must
have missed the PBS special on people over 100 in America. At least one guy was still jogging.
The technical term I believe is "aging well." Being alive in or out of institutionalized care don't
mean much.
How does Jack put it?
"I don't care how old I live; I just want to be LIVING while I am living!" -- Jack LaLanne
Quoted message said:
Sure, they cherry picked. But so do the health nuts. I can give you a long list of prematurely dead
health gurus.
I can show you an even longer list of physicians and other assorted science Kooks, as well as the CR
nut cases starving themselves to an early death.
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate home.naturalhealthperspective.comempowerment.html
Email: [email hidden] www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and
resisting the categorization of life's problems as medical.

Report
N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #13

Quoted message said:
From: Bil [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 6:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!
Quoted message said:
Let's see if I get this straight, John.
Quoted message said:
Do you contend that natural products result from human intervention to genetically or chemically
alter nature's products into something nature has never produced?
I will be very happy to remind you of the topic of my post.
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on three
concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation.
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical scientism that scientism as a
parody of science is at a standstill despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault
lying in their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. 🙂
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to inform medical scientism that
there is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure
Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂
In short, medical scientism is a scam. 🙂
Quoted message said:
"Natural" has never included manufactured chemical diet supplements, John. How can we have
"forgotten" something which it was impossible for us to know? It's even stretching the definition
of "natural" practically to the breaking point to use it to describe more than a tiny handful of
man's selectively bred plants and animals.
The philosophical basis of all Natural Health paradigms and Alternative Medicine is based on three
concepts: Vitalism, Holism, and Variation. The buzz phrase "Natural Health paradigms" comes under
many different names. Another phrase that I use is "personal health and fitness."
"Natural Health" equates to "Personal Health and Fitness", as I have operationally defined
these terms.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy. You've got to eat right,
think right, train right. Fitness is a full time job." -- Jack LaLanne
Quoted message said:
Jack LaLanne was an exercise and supplement nut (and primarily a salesman, in fact.) He was not a
consumer or promoter of natural foods or a "natural" lifestyle.
In regards to "Personal Health and Fitness," both Jack LaLanne and my health program are largely in
perfect agreement right down to his views on milk, feeling the pain, and organic food. I have a
great collection of quotes from both Jack and Bragg. 🙂
In case you have not figured it out yet, Jack LaLanne has proven himself to be correct and all the
medical experts WRONG! Jack did this by virtue of the quality of his life that he is living today.
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science! naturalhealthperspective.comnaturalhealthperspective.com The
ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about prevention.

Report
Orac
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #14

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
(N-H-P) said:
Variation as opposed to the Statistic of Medical Scientism
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Variation means human patients are exceedingly complex and highly variable.
Yes to the former and no to the latter. Patients are variable, but not as highly variable as you
imply, as functional genomics and whole genome expression-profiling is beginning to teach us.
Quoted message said:
Alternative Medicine is about patent centered treatment which addresses a patient's individual
needs as opposed to the managed care protocol of modern medicine which treats each patient as just
a Statistic.
That's nice, but then how do you ever prove that any alternative medicine therapy actually works?
Oh, that's right. You claim "every patient is different" and thereby wash your hands of having to
prove that your "remedies" actually work!
Quoted message said:
Modern Medicine is about diagnostic and therapeutic algorithms that are to be followed exactly in
respect to a given clinical situation under the very real threat of disciplinary action and even
litigation.
This is such utter [censored] that it's laughable. Algorithms are guidelines, and no one ever claims
that they have to be "followed exactly." The standard of care for most diseases allows rather broad
leeway to practictioners to exercise their clinical judgment.
Quoted message said:
Under the protection of methods of modern medicine, if a patient dies that is only a Statistic!
Under the LACK of protection of methods of alternative medicine, if a patient dies he is not even a
statistic! No one knows how many patients die because they pursue alternative medicine therapies,
rather than standard therapies that have proven efficacy.
When I was a resident, I took care of a man with rectal cancer once. When the attending surgeon on
the service first saw him, he had a small cancer, amenable to resection with sphincter preservation
(meaning he wouldn't need a permanent colostomy). Instead of having the surgery, however, he elected
to waste nearly a year pursuing alt-med "cures," including high dose carrot juice, among others. He
came back yellowish-orange and with a near-obstructing, bulky lesion. It was so large that it was no
longer amenable to a sphincter-sparing procedure, meaning that he would have to have an
abdominal-perineal resection, a procedure in which the entire rectum is removed, the anus sewn shut,
and a permanent colostomy constructed. Moreover, he had several positive lymph nodes, which he
probably didn't have at the time of his original diagnosis. The positive lymph nodes meant that his
prognosis was significantly worse than it had been at the time of his diagnosis.
You think alt-med is more effective than conventional therapy? Prove it!
Quoted message said:
Scientism (webref.orgscientism.htm) is "the belief that there is one
and only one method of science and that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."
In Conclusion:
-----------------
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are sorry to inform medical scientism that scientism as
a parody of science is at a standstill despite the best efforts of its many researchers, the fault
lying in their habitual way of looking at illness and doing research. 🙂
You have yet to demonstrate that your way is any better.
Quoted message said:
The proponents of Natural Health paradigms are further very sorry to inform medical scientism that
there is no simpler, more effective treatment to restore health and peace of mind than the cure
Mother Nature provides through natural living. 🙂
Really? If Mother Nature is always so superior at curing disease than conventional medicine, why
does anyone ever get sick? Why do people who do their best to do "natural living" still
sometimes get ill?
Mother Nature doesn't cure severe bacterial infections. Antibiotics do! Mother Nature doesn't "cure"
trauma. Surgery does. Mother nature doesn't "cure" cancer; surgery and/or radiation and/or
chemotherapy do.
Quoted message said:
In short, medical scientism is a scam. 🙂
Much less of a scam than the message you're pushing.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

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N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #15

Quoted message said:
From: Mark Probert [email hidden] Date: 5/16/03 2:01 AM
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was

awarded
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on his 88th birthday in

September
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
2002.
Quoted message said:
The MSNBC article does not say that. He got a star, but the reason is not specified. Care to
document your claim?
seeing-stars.comCalendarPast2.shtml Jack LaLanne (fitness expert & TV
personality)
Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:30 a.m. (7000 Hollywood Blvd., near the Hollywood
Roosevelt Hotel.)
ronjones.orglalanneinterview.htm Complete with picture at age 88. 🙂
Obviously, to receive a star in person at the age of 88 your have to be alive. Unlike Saddam
Hussein, Jack was kind enough to document that this picture was taken on Thursday, September 26,
2002 at 11:30 a.m. This grand public event has documented his looks for ever on his 88th birthday.
Unlike the typical CR nut, Jack looks like a man in his 50's in prime health. The facts are
undisputable.
Incidentally, Jack was born Francois Henri LaLanne on Sept. 26, 1914, to French immigrants John and
Jennie, Jack was the second of three sons.
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate home.naturalhealthperspective.comempowerment.html
Email: [email hidden] www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and
resisting the categorization of life's problems as medical.

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N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #16

Quoted message said:
From: Orac [email hidden] Date: 5/16/03 3:00 AM
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in the days when mother nature was
the main curer of disease before modern medicine came along?
Quoted message said:
Indeed. In those days, people definitely "lived naturally"--about as natural as possible.
Actually, the question is about the choices any person can make today.
If you want to look like Jack on your 88th birthday then ...
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy. You've got to eat right, think
right, train right. Fitness is a full time job." -- Jack LaLanne
For the benefit of the intellectually challenged "eat right, think right, train right" is a buzz
phrase for a well rounded lifestyle.
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science! naturalhealthperspective.comnaturalhealthperspective.com The
ONLY Frauds in Health are those who couldn't care less about prevention.

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N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #17

"I don't care how old I live; I just want to be LIVING while I am living!" -- Jack LaLanne
There is more to this quote than what first meets the eye.
The calorie restriction people have got it all WRONG. The Medical Scientism people have got it all
WRONG. The objective is not living to the age of 140 in some hospital bed.
QUESTION: What are the benefits of prevention and healthy lifestyles?
ANSWER: Maintaining the highest quality of life for as long as possible.
The facts are that every living creature on planet earth will one day
die. That is an absolute certainty. The facts are that you will be alive, until you are dead.
Everyone has two fundamental choices to make.
A death made possible by Medical Scientism which means living in Hell and dying a long, slow, and
painful death.
Or, you can choose to be LIVING while you are still living; Passing away peacefully in your sleep.
The choice is entirely yours to make.
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate home.naturalhealthperspective.comempowerment.html
Email: [email hidden] www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people, encouraging self care and autonomy, and
resisting the categorization of life's problems as medical.

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Orac
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #18

In article said:
If the body is so good at self-healing, why do we become ill? Since "scientism" is being rejected,
none of the medical knowledge that has been gained in the last two centuries, through the
application of reductionist and experimental approaches to medicine, can be applied in the answer.
A bit of a problem for such claims, eh? ;-)
Quoted message said:
That illness is due to evil demons which must be cast out by witch doctors would be one
acceptable answer.
99% of alternative medicine is based upon scientific concepts.
I would have to dispute your assertion, having seen so many alternative medicine claims based on
"improving energy," "detoxifying" the body, etc., etc., etc. Homeopathy is based on a "mechanism"
that has no scientific basis in chemistry, physics, or biology, for example. I doubt that more than
50% of alt-med claims even mention science.
And, of course, at least 90% of alt-med that does claim to be based on "scientific" concepts use
scientific concepts that scientists long ago abandoned as incorrect or distort present-day
scientific concepts.
Quoted message said:
The only difference between it and real science is the lack of experimental confirmation of the
various mechanistic and therapeutic claims.
You forgot to mention the lack of even a DESIRE on the part of the majority of alt-med purveyors
even to submit alternative medicine to experimental testing of the mechanistic and therapeutic
claims they make. Personally, I'm all for treating their "remedies" equally to conventional
therapies and submitting alt-med therapies to rigorous, well-designed clinical trials. The ones that
pass can then go into general usage, and the ones that fail should be abandoned.
Of course, alt-med activists want special treatment for their remedies and do not want to submit
them to scientific study and clinical trials.
Quoted message said:
You can get around this to some ectent by pretending to a higher order of knowledge. Some would
see this as humbug..
Count me in as one of those "some."
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

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Kurt Ullman
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #19

In article said:
Really? If Mother Nature is always so superior at curing disease than conventional medicine, why
does anyone ever get sick? Why do people who do their best to do "natural living" still
sometimes get ill?
The actual question is why was the lifespan so much shorter in the days when
mother nature was the main curer of disease before modern medicine came along?
For there is surely nothing more beautiful in this world than the sight of a lone man facing
singlehandedly a half a ton of angry pot roast! Tom Lehrer on Bullfighting.

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N-H-P
Archived post

14 September 2003, 07:30 UTC #20

Quoted message said:
From: Orac [email hidden] Date: 5/15/03 11:57 PM !!!First
Quoted message said:
You think alt-med is more effective than conventional therapy? Prove

it!
Quoted message said:
You have yet to demonstrate that your way is any better.
alt-med is all about prevention. The whole point is about preventing illness. Thank you for making
my point. 🙂
In recognition of Jack LaLanne's alt-med achievements, he was awarded a star on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame on his 88th birthday in September 2002.
Jack La Lanne's fitness formula msnbc.com807232.asp "Father of modern fitness
gives tips on living longer — and stronger Jack LaLanne is still lifting, pumping, and still
preaching fitness and healthy living.
NBC News
Sept. 13, 2002— Long before personal trainers, before we'd even heard of aerobics, there was Jack La
Lanne. If you remember when his first TV show hit the air, you're probably old enough to be a
grandparent — and maybe wishing you'd paid closer attention. For more than a half-century Jack La
Lanne has been telling us to exercise and eat right, promising better and longer lives if we did.
And he's been practicing what he preached. Every few years, correspondent Keith Morrison checks in
with the father of modern fitness around his birthday. And how old is he?"
"You gotta work at living. Any stupid person can die. Dying is easy. You've got to eat right, think
right, train right. Fitness is a full time job." -- Jack LaLanne
Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people trying to follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
groups.yahoo.comHealth with Attitude

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