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electric bikes

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UK and Europe
Published
15 May 2006
Last activity
14 March 2013
Original author
Pete
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163
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  1. Paul Murphy said:

    "Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:18:17 +0100, Peter Amey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    For me, I don't see an electric bike replacing conventional ones
    but by augmenting them it could be a signficant step towards being
    completely car free. The good folks at A2B make this point; for
    them an electric bike has been a key part of car-free life.

    It's by reading AtoB that my eyes have been opened to electric
    bikes. They still don't appeal to me, but it does seem that over
    the last few years the technology has moved forward to the point
    where these machines could be very useful or enjoyable for some
    riders.

    I dont understand why you put the word "some" in there, surely if
    they can ride a bike the rider could get use or enjoyment from an
    electric bike?

    Bikes aren't meant to have a motor, they're meant to be pedalled! I
    want to feel "yeah, I got up that hill on my own and I did it better
    than the last time I tried". I want to feel good about riding 20, 30,
    40 miles or more. I don't just want to push a button and be pulled up
    a hill or whatever.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  2. "Peter Amey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]> Then
    what on earth is the point? If the riders of electric bikes are fit
    enough to ride proper bikes, why on earth haul around all that extra
    junk? Is it masochism? Is it some perverted idea of fashion, or some
    surreal artwork?

    I think there might be a point, but I am only speculating since I don't
    have an electric bike. My regular commute to work (actually back from
    work) includes a 10+ minute climb which I can manage at 7mph (this is up
    from the 5mph I could manage a few years ago). I don't think this speed
    will change significantly in the future, I am as fit as I am likely to
    get. If, on a pedelec style bike, I could get up the same hill, working
    just as hard as I do now, at 15 mph then it would make a very signficant
    difference to the overall average speed and therefore door-to-door journey
    time. That in turn might induce to me ride on days where the weather,
    amount of kit I need to carry, or some other factor currently deters me.

    A very significant point - you have added choice and electric bikes are fun
    to ride under more varied circumstances than un powered ones.

    Quoted message said:

    So, a wimpish cop-out of an electric bike might actually increase the
    amount of cycling I did and the amount of human power used.

    Now I cant think why you'd say they're a wimpish cop-out - you have added
    choices. Surely only some type of masochist would disapprove of increased
    choice under such circumstances. The only possible problem I can foresee is
    that it can be tempting to leave the power assistance on full when its not
    needed and you're trying to increase fitness, that's a matter of self
    discipline though and its not the bikes fault.

    Paul

  3. "Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:
    Quoted message said:

    years the technology has moved forward to the point where these
    machines could be very useful or enjoyable for some riders.

    I dont understand why you put the word "some" in there, surely if they can
    ride a bike the rider could get use or enjoyment from an electric bike?

    It's obvious, isn't it?

    I could only say the same thing about any type of bike. *Some* riders
    would find a full sus MTB useful or enjoyable, others would have
    absolutely no use for it whatsoever. The same thing would apply to a
    Dutch roadster, or low-pro TT machine, or an 8 freight, or a tandem,
    or a tourer, or a...

    The difference is that you also mentioned 'could' in the same sentence as
    that 'some' so you already covered yourself for the slim possibility that an
    electric bike may not be suitable - presumably only for those who live
    without an electricity supply or sunshine to use a solar charger ;-) You're
    above statements were much more definite although its worth mentioning that
    although my comments were with road cycling on a non-folding bike in mind,
    it is possible to get electric bikes in many forms including mountain bikes
    and folders.

    Paul

  4. "Chris Eilbeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    "Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:18:17 +0100, Peter Amey <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    >For me, I don't see an electric bike replacing conventional ones
    >but by augmenting them it could be a signficant step towards being
    >completely car free. The good folks at A2B make this point; for
    >them an electric bike has been a key part of car-free life.

    It's by reading AtoB that my eyes have been opened to electric
    bikes. They still don't appeal to me, but it does seem that over
    the last few years the technology has moved forward to the point
    where these machines could be very useful or enjoyable for some
    riders.

    I dont understand why you put the word "some" in there, surely if
    they can ride a bike the rider could get use or enjoyment from an
    electric bike?

    Bikes aren't meant to have a motor, they're meant to be pedalled! I
    want to feel "yeah, I got up that hill on my own and I did it better
    than the last time I tried". I want to feel good about riding 20, 30,
    40 miles or more. I don't just want to push a button and be pulled up
    a hill or whatever.

    The sort of electric bike that I have along with many others is termed a
    pedelec and the motor only provides assistance proportional to the effort
    you put in on the pedals. Sure there are some that let you get out of any
    work whatsoever as you described (technically they are illegal in the UK -
    it just doesn't seem to be enforced) but I cant defend those ones in this
    regard.

    Paul

  5. Paul Murphy said:

    The difference is that you also mentioned 'could' in the same sentence as
    that 'some' so you already covered yourself for the slim possibility that an
    electric bike may not be suitable

    I'm sorry but you've lost me now. Are you explaining to me then that
    your question was not in fact about my opinion on the use of bicycles,
    but rather the semantics of my post?

    I did fail my english O' Level first time around...

    "Bob"
    --

    Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

  6. "Paul Murphy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    (technically they are illegal in the UK - it just doesn't seem to be
    enforced) but I cant defend those ones in this regard.

    Just a small but important correction - that should read "(technically they
    are illegal to use on public roads in the UK without tax and insurance like
    a motor vehicle - it just doesn't seem to be enforced)". They also dont
    have the ability to use cyclepaths as they are looked upon as a motor
    vehicle and not a bicycle.

    Paul

  7. Quoted message said:

    Bikes aren't meant to have a motor, they're meant to be pedalled! I
    want to feel "yeah, I got up that hill on my own and I did it better
    than the last time I tried". I want to feel good about riding 20, 30,
    40 miles or more. I don't just want to push a button and be pulled up
    a hill or whatever.

    Chris

    Ive been considering a commute to work which is a 30 mile round trip -
    its a fairly straight route but has a lot of undulating moderate hills
    which are taxing ... I tried commuting this route some time back but I
    gave up.

    An electric assist on this commute would be great and would likely be
    the reason I get on the bike instead of use the car - with me its a
    mental, rather than physical battle ... I might even then be pushed to
    go out on my ordinary tourer at weekends!

    Im gonna have to get me a test ride of a decent electric assist.

  8. "Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    The difference is that you also mentioned 'could' in the same sentence as
    that 'some' so you already covered yourself for the slim possibility that
    an
    electric bike may not be suitable

    I'm sorry but you've lost me now. Are you explaining to me then that
    your question was not in fact about my opinion on the use of bicycles,
    but rather the semantics of my post?

    Your comment came across as very tentative and weary - I sought to clarify
    why. I hope you didn't think I was trying to split hairs as that was not my
    intention at all. Sorry for any misunderstanding caused.

    Quoted message said:


    I did fail my English O' Level first time around...

    I failed English at school twice but it didn't stop me from going on and
    achieving an 'A' for 'Communication Skills' at Polytech or 'Competent
    Toastmaster' status with Toastmasters International
    http://www.toastmasters.org/

    There were aspects of "school English" that I just wasn't interested in at
    the time. The fact that I answered the poetry question based on my review of
    a Pam Ayres poem even though she wasn't one of the "approved" poets (who's
    works I didn't like/understand at the time) for the exam wouldn't have
    helped my chances....

    Paul

  9. wafflycat said:


    He can do over 25mph average on a 10mile course (terrain
    dependent!) But today was not his finest hour. In the 10 he did today,
    he threw up twice during his time on the course...

    I didn't know he had gone under 24 mins for a 10; that is good.
    Let us hope he does better in the National 25 - breaking the hour must
    be a target, but it would be a Big Embarrassment to be caught by young
    Greta.

    Its a poor field though reflecting the very few number of youngsters who
    race :-(

    tt

  10. Paul Murphy said:

    That weight penalty you talk about is minimal depending on the choice of
    bike and its getting better all the time with advances in battery
    technology. In a previous thread I pointed out to Simon Brook that the
    weight of my Dutch Roadster style Giant Twist is only a kilogram or 2 more
    than a similar non-power assisted Gazelle of similar styling and features.

    Yes, but if you are looking for a lightweight bike to be fast on the flat,
    you wouldn't buy a Gazelle of similar styling and features. For the same
    price as a Twist, you could buy a non-assist bike which was much faster
    on the flat. (And the Twist has been replaced by a less sophisticated
    model with a hub motor.)

    Quoted message said:

    kg (mine is about 3.5 kg). Although there are lighter bikes the difference
    on a like for like basis isn't much and the gap is reducing all the time.

    Only if by "like for like" you mean similarly styled, not similarly priced,
    or similarly suitable for a given commute. While the gap is reducing, at
    the moment any battery with reasonable range is not "minimal". (But then
    nor is 200W the "insignificant" power that Simon has claimed.)

    Quoted message said:

    I
    believe the increased flexibility of having that power available if wanted,
    more than makes up for any downsides, certainly for my commuting needs.

    Quite possibly (and I'm considering one for commuting myself), but that's
    a different question. That in some cases the advantages make up for the
    disadvantages on the flat doesn't mean the disadvantages aren't there.

  11. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    I dont understand why you put the word "some" in there, surely if they
    can ride a bike the rider could get use or enjoyment from an electric
    bike?

    If you can ride a bike, then surely by definition you've no need for an
    electric one?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; my other religion is Emacs

  12. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
    problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without
    difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster than
    me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so there
    is almost no time that the motor could legally assist - not even up
    the hills. All the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra weight and
    extra drag. You'd have to be an exceptionally poor cyclist to do as
    badly on a good quality normal bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.

    Any course eh?

    Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am I'd
    be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed never
    drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it would be off
    all the time.

    Quoted message said:

    If you are talking wind
    resistance drag, that would be minimal difference given there is very
    little difference in the external appearance of many electric bikes to
    conventional bikes and given the relatively low speeds involved.

    I'm talking about weight. Your 'yellow dream' weighs twice as much as my
    Dolan. And that extra weight has to be lugged up every hill.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; lovely alternative to rice.

  13. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    .::;===r==\
    / /___||___\____
    //==\- ||- | /__\(
    //____\__||___|_// \|:
    \__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/

    Love the picture - so thats how the 2 CV designers came up with the
    shape, using ASCI characters on a keyboard. In fairness though there's
    actually a strong market for these unusual little cars. There's also a
    thriving 2CV owners club (as well as the all-encompassing Citroen
    owners club). If I owned one I'd be hanging onto it to watch its value
    rise.

    If I still owned one I'd be driving it - the world's most under-rated
    sports car.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

  14. "triddletree" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    wafflycat said:


    He can do over 25mph average on a 10mile course (terrain dependent!) But
    today was not his finest hour. In the 10 he did today, he threw up twice
    during his time on the course...

    I didn't know he had gone under 24 mins for a 10; that is good.
    Let us hope he does better in the National 25 - breaking the hour must be
    a target, but it would be a Big Embarrassment to be caught by young Greta.

    Its a poor field though reflecting the very few number of youngsters who
    race :-(

    tt

    No embarrassment anyway no matter who he is caught by. The Unfit Family
    Ethos To Timetrialling is to do *your* best on any given day and enjoy it.
    What other riders do or don't do is not important. He would like to break
    the hour for a 25, and he's working towards that. He'll do it, but can't say
    when. His current 10 PB is 23:56, which he did only recently, in the pouring
    rain at an event where many a rider pulled out. He likes rain. Hates wind,
    but likes rain. With hindsight, he should have been a DNS in the national
    10, as mid-week he had several jabs for his forthcoming trip to Egypt and
    he's been a 'bit-off' since. More jabs to follow :-(

    Cheers, helen s

  15. wafflycat said:


    "triddletree" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    wafflycat said:


    He can do over 25mph average on a 10mile course (terrain dependent!)
    But today was not his finest hour. In the 10 he did today, he threw
    up twice during his time on the course...

    I didn't know he had gone under 24 mins for a 10; that is good.
    Let us hope he does better in the National 25 - breaking the hour must
    be a target, but it would be a Big Embarrassment to be caught by young
    Greta.

    Its a poor field though reflecting the very few number of youngsters
    who race :-(

    tt

    No embarrassment anyway no matter who he is caught by. The Unfit Family
    Ethos To Timetrialling is to do *your* best on any given day and enjoy
    it.

    That's good.

    What other riders do or don't do is not important. He would like to

    Quoted message said:

    break the hour for a 25, and he's working towards that. He'll do it, but
    can't say when. His current 10 PB is 23:56, which he did only recently...

    Hey, hang on a minute. Something doesn't tie up here.
    ISTR that you had previously said that PBs were *not* the aim and that
    TTs were about beating the other riders and position in the field - an
    admirable reason to time trial.

    Has your lad been seduced by the quest, nay obsession, to go faster and
    faster, and its now speed that matters?
    Is this why you are being seen all over the country?

    That would be quite a change from your previous position.

    tt

  16. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
    problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without
    difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster than
    me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so there
    is almost no time that the motor could legally assist - not even up
    the hills. All the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra weight and
    extra drag. You'd have to be an exceptionally poor cyclist to do as
    badly on a good quality normal bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.

    Any course eh?

    Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am I'd
    be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed never
    drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it would be off
    all the time.

    But the speed would drop on a very steep long hill. There are plenty around
    here where it would. Are you familiar with High Wycombe, a place not to far
    from where I live - cyclists dropping below 15 mph would be the norm in
    places around there. If you're saying this isn't possible then is it because
    you belive no hill is steep enough or long enough to do that to you on your
    lightweight bike?

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    If you are talking wind
    resistance drag, that would be minimal difference given there is very
    little difference in the external appearance of many electric bikes to
    conventional bikes and given the relatively low speeds involved.

    I'm talking about weight. Your 'yellow dream' weighs twice as much as my
    Dolan. And that extra weight has to be lugged up every hill.

    Well thats only an extra 7.5 kgs which although a decent chunk of your non
    like-for-like bike weight (not including the rider on it) it is nevertheless
    a relatively small amount to lug, when you consider that the battery and
    power assist MORE than makes up for it. 200 Watts will allow you to to lug
    7.5 kg up even the steepest hill at a very rapid rate.

    A cyclist may put in 100 watts of power on a bike going up a hill with a
    weight of 7.5 kg, Doesn't if follow that with up to 200 watts of additional
    power avail to add to the cyclists own 100 Watts that with up to 300 Watts
    powering the bike up the hill, even with a 15 kg bike it will still
    outperform the first situation all other things being equal. When you take
    the riders weight into consideration (by far the heaviest part of the whole
    thing), the percentage all up weight difference becomes even less
    pronounced. You may say you put in more than 100 Watts (and I've read that
    well trained cyclists can put in a fairly steady 350 watts or that some
    world competition cyclists can put in over 1 kW in short bursts), but unless
    that power output was much more than 100 Watts and sustained for even the
    longest hills, its not going to beat the good light weight electric bike
    going up a very steep hill..

    Paul

  17. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    That weight penalty you talk about is minimal depending on the choice of
    bike and its getting better all the time with advances in battery
    technology. In a previous thread I pointed out to Simon Brook that the
    weight of my Dutch Roadster style Giant Twist is only a kilogram or 2 more
    than a similar non-power assisted Gazelle of similar styling and features.

    Yes, but if you are looking for a lightweight bike to be fast on the flat,
    you wouldn't buy a Gazelle of similar styling and features.


    Agreed and if you only wanted something fast on the flat (above 15 mph),
    theres little point in an electric bike at all here in the UK with our
    current restrictions. Going back to sqare 1 wiuth the OP, we dont know how
    Pete or his wife intends to use it this bike though so what is relevant.

    Quoted message said:

    For the same price as a Twist, you could buy a non-assist bike which was
    much faster on the flat.


    Agreed but to be fair people also pay extra money for additional features
    that make things more pleasant (eg electric windows on a car which seem
    almost standard these days). There's no denying power assist is an extra
    feature which makes things more pleasant.

    Quoted message said:

    (And the Twist has been replaced by a less sophisticated model with a hub
    motor.)


    Yes It was sad to read of that in AtoB Mag but if you look around and are
    quick enough, there are still some of the old stock yet to be sold

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    kg (mine is about 3.5 kg). Although there are lighter bikes the difference
    on a like for like basis isn't much and the gap is reducing all the time.

    Only if by "like for like" you mean similarly styled,

    That was what I meant because its most effective at showing the additional
    weight of the extra/replacement bits

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    While the gap is reducing, at
    the moment any battery with reasonable range is not "minimal". (But then
    nor is 200W the "insignificant" power that Simon has claimed.)

    Lithium Polymer is significantly lighter than both Ni MH and Li Ion and does
    give that range at "minimal" weight (in my view) but then its also about
    twice the price currently. Bottom line just as with conventional bikes is if
    you want the very best performance you have to spend large amounts.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I
    believe the increased flexibility of having that power available if
    wanted,
    more than makes up for any downsides, certainly for my commuting needs.

    Quite possibly

    There's no possibly about it for me, I'm sure.

    Quoted message said:

    (and I'm considering one for commuting myself),

    You've already concluded that whether the same benefits would apply to you
    depends what use you intend to put such a bike to under what sort of
    conditions.(something we don't know about for the OP despite my enquiries).
    but its great to read you're considering such a step!

    Paul

  18. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    I dont understand why you put the word "some" in there, surely if they
    can ride a bike the rider could get use or enjoyment from an electric
    bike?

    If you can ride a bike, then surely by definition you've no need for an
    electric one?

    Any sort of bike is usually only a want rather than a need anyway.

    Paul

  19. "triddletree" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    wafflycat wrote:

    Quoted message said:


    Hey, hang on a minute. Something doesn't tie up here.
    ISTR that you had previously said that PBs were *not* the aim and that TTs
    were about beating the other riders and position in the field - an
    admirable reason to time trial.

    Sigh... It's nothing more than being about him doing his best on any given
    day, and as part of his maintaining his interest & developing his fitness.

    Quoted message said:


    Has your lad been seduced by the quest, nay obsession, to go faster and
    faster, and its now speed that matters?
    Is this why you are being seen all over the country?

    Sigh... No, it's about nothing more than maintaining his interest by being
    able to cycle on different terrain, different courses, meet different
    people... just to keep interest going. We've met some nice people in the
    sport that we wouldn't have met if he was doing the same old courses week
    in, week out. It's called having fun.

    Quoted message said:

    That would be quite a change from your previous position.

    tt

    No, see above. It is possible to vary one's hangouts just as part of keeping
    interest and enthusiasm going. But heck, never let something like having fun
    be part of the equation... sigh...

  20. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>,

    Paul Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
    > problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without
    > difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster
    > than me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so
    > there is almost no time that the motor could legally assist - not
    > even up the hills. All the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra
    > weight and extra drag. You'd have to be an exceptionally poor
    > cyclist to do as badly on a good quality normal bike as you would on
    > a 'yellow dream'.

    Any course eh?

    Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am
    I'd be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed
    never drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it would
    be off all the time.

    But the speed would drop on a very steep long hill. There are plenty
    around here where it would. Are you familiar with High Wycombe, a place
    not to far from where I live - cyclists dropping below 15 mph would be
    the norm in places around there.

    I am familiar with High Wycombe. The hill behind my house is just as
    steep and substantially more than three times as high. One of the local
    time trial courses which I ride regularly has as much vertical rise as
    the High Wycombe hill. And?

    Quoted message said:

    If you're saying this isn't possible
    then is it because you belive no hill is steep enough or long enough to
    do that to you on your lightweight bike?

    It's a matter of whether what you get back is worth what you have to put
    in. Certainly there are (many) hills which slow me below 15mph; but not
    enough to make it worth lugging the motor around for the rest of the
    time. And I am fifty, with chronic circulation problems, not very fit,
    and live in an area with hills bigger than England's biggest.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm talking about weight. Your 'yellow dream' weighs twice as much as
    my Dolan. And that extra weight has to be lugged up every hill.

    Well thats only an extra 7.5 kgs which although a decent chunk of your
    non like-for-like bike weight

    What do you claim is not 'like for like' about it? What does a 'yellow
    dream' cost?

    Quoted message said:

    A cyclist may put in 100 watts of power on a bike going up a hill with
    a weight of 7.5 kg, Doesn't if follow that with up to 200 watts of
    additional power avail to add to the cyclists own 100 Watts that with
    up to 300 Watts powering the bike up the hill, even with a 15 kg bike
    it will still outperform the first situation all other things being
    equal. When you take the riders weight into consideration (by far the
    heaviest part of the whole thing), the percentage all up weight
    difference becomes even less
    pronounced. You may say you put in more than 100 Watts (and I've read
    that well trained cyclists can put in a fairly steady 350 watts or that
    some world competition cyclists can put in over 1 kW in short bursts),
    but unless that power output was much more than 100 Watts and sustained
    for even the longest hills, its not going to beat the good light weight
    electric bike going up a very steep hill.

    I can sustain 160 watts for half an hour. I know this, because that's
    what I need to do to achieve the time trial times which I do achieve. I
    am not an exceptional person. I am an ordinary fairly lazy middle aged
    man. And I don't mean I can do 160 watts for half an hour and then be
    completely knackered - I normally ride to time trials and ride home
    again afterwards. Members of my club regularly achieve times which imply
    350 watts for half an hour, although the people who can are fairly
    athletic.

    But the idea you need to be exceptional to ride a bike up a hill is just
    false.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; killing [afghan|iraqi] civilians is not 'justice'

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