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why increasing strength doesn't (automatically) increase power

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Road Cycling
Published
13 November 2003
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21 November 2003
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Andy Coggan
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  1. "Frank Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I understand what you intended. I simply expanded the analysis in what I thought was a logical
    extension

    Not logical from where I sit, as it is far too incomplete.

    Quoted message said:

    and found, what I believed to be an illogical conclusion. How does your analysis look at strength
    when being used submaximally?

    It doesn't, in any way, shape, or form.

    Quoted message said:

    Would your model predict that strength training would be beneficial for improving aerobic
    (submaximal) performance? How does that analysis work using the model you used?

    Since this means of data presentation completely ignores metabolism, it can't make any such
    predictions, except to demonstrate that strength is not a limiting factor. To understand why
    strength *training* doesn't improve aerobic performance requires additional knowledge.

    Quoted message said:

    In your paper you do mention optimum cadence for maximum power so my bringing up what the model
    predicts for cadence at submaximal power is not beyond the pale.

    You're right, I do mention that the point at which the isopower curve and straight line relationship
    between AEPF and CPV meet is the optimum cadence for maximal power development. But that's only in
    passing...

    Andy Coggan

  2. This is off the topic of Andy's article, but...The use of higher cadences is related to the force
    issue, with the general idea being that cyclists choose higher cadences because they are trying to
    reduce the overall "strain" on the muscles, rather reducing lactic acid. Andy, correct me if I'm
    wrong, but wasn't Coyle's contention that the elite riders are able to spread the workload of the
    legs over a great number of fibers, so that individually each is less stressed? Higher cadences
    would also "spare" each fiber some "strain".

    Metabolically, higher cadences would be worse, but relative to the untrained person, its not a
    problem, because the trained rider has the extra capacity; considering Lance, he has taken this a
    step or two further, turning a cadence none of us mere mortals could without "blowing up", but he
    has that extra capacity. How does this relate to strength?

    The idea of cyclists lifting weights in the winter and gaining strength seems like a good one. I
    mean you lift and get so much stronger that it seems natural that, like an increase in LT or VO2
    max, all the previous sub max workloads are less hard. However, something many of the posters have
    failed to address is the fact that one's 1 RM is so much higher than we could produce on the
    steepest Berg, that strength alone is not relevant, and, as Andy pointed out, largely neurological.

    The only way to make the strength increase permanent (so to speak) is to develop a bigger muscle.
    Unfortunately (for those of you concerned with metabolic issues), a large increase in muscle would
    decrease capillary density, decreasing endurance capacity, at least in the short-term. But, let's
    say you grow your muscles and then say, "OK, now I'm going to train my ass off and get that
    endurance back." Super, 3 months later (probably longer), your capillary density is increased, your
    endurance is back up and your muscles are SMALLER. Why? Because the smaller muscle is better for
    endurance.

    While I may have oversimplified this, the point here is that large muscle sizes are good for force,
    but probably not possible to sustain for endurance sports. Obviously, cyclists have very large legs,
    but compared to body builders they're still "small potatoes"!

    I think a lot of people missed the point of the original post and zeroed in on his use of
    terminology. Whether correct or incorrect, the point was to raise issue over weight training, not
    word usage.

    Now for my own use in coaching, I am not a strong proponent of weight training, but some clients use
    it, others don't and I mostly believe weights can be an important break for a rider and help address
    weaknesses. Some clients even feel they need weight training making it not worth the time to argue
    or reform, because cycling is part
    psychological, too. Let's all consider the overall role of auxiliary training and not forget the
    need for specificity.

    Chris Harnish

    "Fighting poor training one client at a time."

    [email hidden] (Frank Day) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Shayne, We are not talking about imaginary numbers here. If you prefer to call it science that we
    ignore results we don't like or can't explain so be it. You are not alone in this regards. I don't
    see why the higher cadence is necessarily the "unphysical" one. Lots of people here would argue
    that higher cadences are better than lower cadences because they "flush out the lactic acid", even
    though there is no good science to back that claim up either.

    Frank

    "Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:> This conclusion does not
    follow. There are lots of examples in physics where

    Quoted message said:

    you throw out the "unphysical" solution, which is just an artifact of the method of computation.

    Shayne Wissler

  3. In article <[email hidden]>, chris

    Quoted message said:

    However, something many of the posters have failed to address is the fact that one's 1 RM is so
    much higher than we could produce on the steepest Berg, that strength alone is not relevant, and,
    as Andy pointed out, largely neurological.

    What about strength training that isn't directed towards increasing 1RM? Like doing squats with 3-6
    sets of 10-15 reps for two months before moving on to more specific (on the bike) exercises?

    Quoted message said:


    The only way to make the strength increase permanent (so to speak) is to develop a bigger muscle.
    Unfortunately (for those of you concerned with metabolic issues), a large increase in muscle would
    decrease capillary density, decreasing endurance capacity, at least in the short-term. But, let's
    say you grow your muscles and then say, "OK, now I'm going to train my ass off and get that
    endurance back." Super, 3 months later (probably longer), your capillary density is increased,
    your endurance is back up and your muscles are SMALLER. Why? Because the smaller muscle is better
    for endurance.

    Why not train the muscle for size (as you put it) and then train to maintain that (probably on the
    bike) while you also train to increase the capillary density?

    Quoted message said:

    I think a lot of people missed the point of the original post and zeroed in on his use of
    terminology. Whether correct or incorrect, the point was to raise issue over weight training, not
    word usage.

    Yes, that brain power would be more useful to us if it addressed the much more important
    issues at hand.

    Quoted message said:


    Now for my own use in coaching, ...I mostly believe weights can be an important break for a rider
    and help address weaknesses.

    -WG

  4. "chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is off the topic of Andy's article, but...The use of higher cadences is related to the force
    issue, with the general idea being that cyclists choose higher cadences because they are trying to
    reduce the overall "strain"

    Higher cadence means lower torque to achieve the same power.

    on the muscles, rather reducing lactic acid.

    Quoted message said:

    Andy, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Coyle's contention that the elite riders are able to
    spread the workload of the legs over a great number of fibers, so that individually each is less
    stressed? Higher cadences would also "spare" each fiber some "strain".

    Metabolically, higher cadences would be worse, but relative to the untrained person, its not a
    problem, because the trained rider has the extra capacity;

    Cardio-vascular capacity.

    considering Lance, he has taken this a step or two

    Quoted message said:

    further, turning a cadence none of us mere mortals could without "blowing up", but he has that
    extra capacity. How does this relate to strength?

    The idea of cyclists lifting weights in the winter and gaining strength seems like a good one. I
    mean you lift and get so much stronger that it seems natural that, like an increase in LT or VO2
    max, all the previous sub max workloads are less hard. However, something many of the posters have
    failed to address is the fact that one's 1 RM is so much higher than we could produce on the
    steepest Berg, that strength alone is not relevant, and, as Andy pointed out, largely
    neurological.

    The only way to make the strength increase permanent (so to speak) is to develop a bigger muscle.
    Unfortunately (for those of you concerned with metabolic issues), a large increase in muscle would
    decrease capillary density, decreasing endurance capacity, at least in the short-term. But, let's
    say you grow your muscles and then say, "OK, now I'm going to train my ass off and get that
    endurance back." Super, 3 months later (probably longer), your capillary density is increased,
    your endurance is back up and your muscles are SMALLER. Why? Because the smaller muscle is better
    for endurance.

    While I may have oversimplified this, the point here is that large muscle sizes are good for
    force, but probably not possible to sustain for endurance sports. Obviously, cyclists have very
    large legs, but compared to body builders they're still "small potatoes"!

    I think a lot of people missed the point of the original post and zeroed in on his use of
    terminology. Whether correct or incorrect, the point was to raise issue over weight training, not
    word usage.

    Now for my own use in coaching, I am not a strong proponent of weight training, but some clients
    use it, others don't and I mostly believe weights can be an important break for a rider and help
    address weaknesses. Some clients even feel they need weight training making it not worth the time
    to argue or reform, because cycling is part
    psychological, too. Let's all consider the overall role of auxiliary training and not forget the
    need for specificity.

    Chris Harnish

    "Fighting poor training one client at a time."

    [email hidden] (Frank Day) wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Shayne, We are not talking about imaginary numbers here. If you prefer to call it science that
    we ignore results we don't like or can't explain so be it. You are not alone in this regards. I
    don't see why the higher cadence is necessarily the "unphysical" one. Lots of people here would
    argue that higher cadences are better than lower cadences because they "flush out the lactic
    acid", even though there is no good science to back that claim up either.

    Frank

    "Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:>


    This conclusion does not follow. There are lots of examples in physics where

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    you throw out the "unphysical" solution, which is just an artifact of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    method of computation.

    Shayne Wissler

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, "Kurgan Gringioni"

    Quoted message said:

    "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Read Bicycling Magazine.

    They have scores of ways to get better.

    Hey, don't dis Bicycling Magazine!

    Dumbass -

    Who's dissing Bicycling Magazine?

    That publication is the Bible (or the Koran) of cycling.

    I like to think of it as the "Dianetics" of cycling.

    A good Catholic boy,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  6. warren said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, chris

    Quoted message said:

    However, something many of the posters have failed to address is the fact that one's 1 RM is so
    much higher than we could produce on the steepest Berg, that strength alone is not relevant, and,
    as Andy pointed out, largely neurological.

    What about strength training that isn't directed towards increasing 1RM? Like doing squats with 3-6
    sets of 10-15 reps for two months before moving on to more specific (on the bike) exercises?

    That's exactly what's being recommended - training for hypertrophy. While we're on the subject,
    check out:

    hypertrophy-specific.comhypertrophy-specific.com

    I have a handy spreadsheet for calculating your weights up at:

    home.kc.rr.comhst

    Once you start training solely for 1RM strength a lot of the adaption is neural, coming from an
    increases in rate coding and firing rate, and technique perfection.

    --

    Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, Top Sirloin

    Quoted message said:
    warren said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, chris

    Quoted message said:

    However, something many of the posters have failed to address is the fact that one's 1 RM is so
    much higher than we could produce on the steepest Berg, that strength alone is not relevant,
    and, as Andy pointed out, largely neurological.

    What about strength training that isn't directed towards increasing 1RM? Like doing squats with
    3-6 sets of 10-15 reps for two months before moving on to more specific (on the bike) exercises?

    That's exactly what's being recommended - training for hypertrophy. While we're on the subject,
    check out:

    hypertrophy-specific.comhypertrophy-specific.com

    I have a handy spreadsheet for calculating your weights up at:

    home.kc.rr.comhst

    Interesting stuff, thanks.

    -WG

  8. "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Since this comes up over and over and over again on multiple forums, I thought I'd try to clear
    up some of the confusion:

    home.earthlink.netid4.html

    I don't want to take away the value of your article; I think it is great


    to

    Quoted message said:

    have for reference when the subject comes up.

    What I want to ask you is, who ever claimed that increasing strength would automatically
    increase power?

    Based on hundreds of posts I've read on numerous forums over the years, I'd say that many people
    seem to believe that it does.

    Quoted message said:

    I can remember several years ago (?) when talking about this, there were a few folks that
    testified weight training helped them gain power. Your reaction made me believe you thought that
    was not possible. Was this


    simply

    Quoted message said:

    a case of misunderstanding?

    ??

    Weight training causes hypertrophy. Hypertrophy increases the potential to generate power. These are
    well-known facts that I have never disputed. Where people's thinking goes awry is when they assume
    that increases in strength resulting from weight training are due entirely to hypertrophy, and
    therefore that increases in strength automatically result in an increase in maximal power.

    Andy Coggan

  9. In article said:
    Quoted message said:

    Where people's thinking goes awry is when they assume that increases in strength resulting from
    weight training are due entirely to hypertrophy, and therefore that increases in strength
    automatically result in an increase in maximal power.

    Andy Coggan

    Would it be relevant for sake of substantiating the preceeding statement to illustrate a
    comparison (in terms of power output) between multi time Olympic weight lifting champion, Naim
    Suleymanoglu and any of the Mister Olympia bodybuilding champions. Suleymanoglu at 132 lbs would
    hoist more weight then any of the bodybuilders who weigh considerably more and typify
    hypertrophy states.

    Zatsiorsky (1996), "Don't overemphasize the role of maximal strength in power production. To be a
    strong athlete does not mean to be a power athlete. It is true that all elite power athletes are
    very strong people. On the other hand, not all strong individuals can execute movement powerfully
    when combining large force and high velocity."

    I'm sure Larry has seen this too, I've seen plenty of people at the track who have huge, muscular
    quads but they're not very fast. Still, almost all of the really fast guys also have big,
    muscular quads.

    -WG

  10. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I've seen plenty of people at the track who have huge, muscular quads but they're not very fast.

    I don't mean to pick on him because he's a really nice guy, but unfortunately the name that comes to
    mind is Danny Wilson.

  11. In article said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I've seen plenty of people at the track who have huge, muscular quads but they're not very fast.

    I don't mean to pick on him because he's a really nice guy, but unfortunately the name that comes
    to mind is Danny Wilson.

    The first time I saw Danny in 1996 I thought this guy must be reallllly fast, but he wasn't as
    fast as he looked. (His girlfriend mentioned he'd lost 50 pounds! from when he played for the
    Green Bay Packers). He beat me by less than a tenth to get the 4 seed. Al Whaley was much smaller
    and was .4 faster.

    -WG

  12. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Since this comes up over and over and over again on multiple forums, I thought I'd try to clear up
    some of the confusion:

    home.earthlink.netid4.html

    It's interesting to note that the great sprinters from the GDR specifically Hesslich, Hubner and
    Huck (who are arguably the greatest exponents of the match sprint) performed weight training regimes
    to increase strength and thereby power. However one of the significant aspects of the weight
    training was that the muscle group that was most targeted were the muscles that were specifically
    engaged during the pedal stroke. For example for each rider the exact angle of the leg during the
    pedal stroke was used to determine the manner in which the squat trust exercise was performed. I
    would suggest that the specific nature of this weight/strength training would lead to both a
    hypertropic response and neural adaptation that benefits an increase in power by virtue of an
    increase in strength during the pedal stroke.

    These huge men who were incredible muscular also performed other weight training – the benefit of
    which was not to provide additional leg power but specifically to stabilize the bicycle and upper
    body during acceleration so that all generated leg power was specifically channeled into forward
    propulsion. To qualify the above statement these men would also have been genenetically blessed
    with a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, which would no doubt have been the basis for
    their speed.

  13. "Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It's interesting to note that the great sprinters from the GDR specifically Hesslich, Hubner and
    Huck (who are arguably the greatest exponents of the match sprint) performed weight training
    regimes to increase strength and thereby power. However one of the significant aspects of the
    weight training was that the muscle group that was most targeted were the muscles that were
    specifically engaged during the pedal stroke. For example for each rider the exact angle of the
    leg during the pedal stroke was used to determine the manner in which the squat trust exercise was
    performed. I would suggest that the specific nature of this weight/strength training would lead to
    both a hypertropic response and neural adaptation that benefits an increase in power by virtue of
    an increase in strength during the pedal stroke.

    The former (hypertrophy), but not the latter (neural adaptation), unless joint angular velocities
    were also similar to those encountered when pedaling. (Of course, if they were, then you wouldn't be
    lifting heavy weights, you'd be sprinting.)

    Andy Coggan

  14. You could do this, but there is no real effective way to maintain that hypertrophy while endurance
    training. By training, I mean serious training, not going to the stair master for 30 minutes per
    day. Additionally, it is not so easy to increase capillarization; I'm not particularly familiar
    with the recent literature on this subject, but one needs to consider that it takes much more
    training to build this capillary structure. It was thought (perhaps still is) that high rep weight
    training could increase capillarization, but the research was never convincing. You can increase
    muscle size, but it takes a long time (6 months) to see serious size gains and its easy to lose
    that size unless you maintain the training program; ie, once you start putting in serious miles you
    lose most of that size.

    My 2 cents is this: You would have to weight train year round and cut into you specific bike
    training. Is it really worth it to spend that much time weight training vs. riding?

    CH

    Quoted message said:

    What about strength training that isn't directed towards increasing 1RM? Like doing squats with
    3-6 sets of 10-15 reps for two months before moving on to more specific (on the bike) exercises?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Why not train the muscle for size (as you put it) and then train to maintain that (probably on the
    bike) while you also train to increase the capillary density?

  15. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in defending your use of the term velocity?

    Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction ("circumferential"😉, meaning that what I was
    speaking about was indeed velocity, not just speed.

    Andy Coggan

    As everyone understands perfectly well, I started this in order to annoy you, because your overly
    technical term was pretentious. But your continued defence of your error perfectly highlights how
    little you understand. Dude, you are measuring speed, figure it out and admit your error. Then you
    will have learned a little about scientific truth.

    -ilan

  16. (chris) said:

    My 2 cents is this: You would have to weight train year round and cut into you specific bike
    training. Is it really worth it to spend that much time weight training vs. riding?

    You don't think you could fit in two quick 30 minute workouts a week, something like:

    warmup back squat 2x8 overhead press 2x10 chin-up 2x5 front squat 3x5

    How much does your weight fluctuate between your peak fitness and your off season?

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

  17. In article said:

    You could do this, but there is no real effective way to maintain that hypertrophy while endurance
    training.

    I would think once per week hard sprint training on the bike will go a long way to preserving the
    hypertrophy you gained during 2-3 months of indoor resistance training, and since many riders
    (criterium, track) need to do that sprint training anyway how much of that gym work will get lost?

    -WG

  18. "Top Sirloin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (chris) said:

    My 2 cents is this: You would have to weight train year round and cut into you specific bike
    training. Is it really worth it to spend that much time weight training vs. riding?

    You don't think you could fit in two quick 30 minute workouts a week,


    something

    Quoted message said:

    like:

    warmup back squat 2x8 overhead press 2x10 chin-up 2x5 front squat 3x5

    How much does your weight fluctuate between your peak fitness and your off season?

    Dumbass -

    Weight training doesn't do squat for road cycling unless your musculature is so underdeveloped that
    it is the weak link in the chain.

    99.99% of the time in road cycling, the cardio system is the differentiator. Look at how small those
    Euros are.

  19. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    Weight training doesn't do squat for road cycling unless your musculature is so underdeveloped that
    it is the weak link in the chain.

    I already said that - I just gave him an idea for hanging onto muscle (if he chose to).

    Quoted message said:

    99.99% of the time in road cycling, the cardio system is the differentiator. Look at how small
    those Euros are.

    They also race for a living. Some of us are interested in being able to pick up heavy things,
    avoiding osteoporosis at 35, and not looking like a 14 year old boy.

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

  20. "Top Sirloin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Kurgan Gringioni said:

    Weight training doesn't do squat for road cycling unless your musculature


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    so underdeveloped that it is the weak link in the chain.

    I already said that - I just gave him an idea for hanging onto muscle (if


    he

    Quoted message said:

    chose to).

    Quoted message said:

    99.99% of the time in road cycling, the cardio system is the


    differentiator.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Look at how small those Euros are.

    They also race for a living. Some of us are interested in being able to


    pick up

    Quoted message said:

    heavy things, avoiding osteoporosis at 35, and not looking like a 14 year


    old

    Quoted message said:

    boy.

    Dumbass -

    With the abundance of caloric intake options available in our culture, your chances of looking like
    a 14 year old boy are almost nonexistent.

    You're more likely to look more like an undefined blob, like most of the other dudes who hang
    out in gyms.

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