When will Contadope be caught?

plectrum said:

...The physiological comparisson is important, the technique is important, the doping is important but so is the desire and the heart and the pain threshold. LA was obsessed and still is obsessed with TdF and i feel this is why he won.

You know what, I have to agree with this. I'm not Armstrong fan, but I think there's a grain of truth to much of the PR hype regarding his cancer, determination, Mr. Millimeter, ect.

For example, you can't look at him pre-1998 and post and say he looks the same. It's possible that he did not lose weight, but there was certainly a recomposition.

Now, that recomposition could be attributed to doping, but regardless, if you study his physique and pedal mechanics when he won the worlds in 1993, he doesn't even resemble the rider who finished, what was it, fifth at the Veulta and the worlds itt in 1998, then leading up to his 1999 Tour run? Not the same guy. A much slower turn over and much more mass in his upper body, particularly in his neck and shoulders.

The guy who should be credited with those seven wins is Carmichael. He understood how EPO worked in relation to Grand Tours and he trained and raced Armstrong accordingly. Carmichael pegged Armstrong early on as a Tour champion despite the fact that Armstrong hadn't even won any of the prize climbing stage races in North America much less Europe. I don't think Carmichael was hoping against hope. I guess he had the empirical physiological data to back his claims. People talk about VO2max, but that's an equation where the rider's weight is a dominating figure. But, if you look at displacement, the sheer volume of air he can pull in. Armstrong is lighter than he appears because he is barrel-chested. Australia's Nathan O'Neil is the same way. When you put their HCT above 55 -- with the volume of air they can consume -- the VO2max goes off the charts even if they're heavier than flyweight climbers.

As for him possibly racing clean... mussette, come on girl. That's a sack bull [censored]. I raced against him when he was still stateside and he was a known doper then.

Klodifan said:

he is a sociopath, through and through.

1. Which definition of sociopath are you using?

2. Is every doper a sociopath - Kloden for instance?

3. Are you an altruist?

limerickman said:

Hmm.
Makes sense on one level.

Had the privilege of speaking with Miguel Indurain before the start of the 1998
TDF.
I asked Indurain why he had retired.
He said in part that he retired because he knew that his career was coming to an end but he also said pointing to JU, who was a few tables away from us, "I could see him (pointing to JU) in my rear view mirror. His power in 1996
made me realise that my time at the top level was over".
I asked him did he view any other riders as a threat, such as Jalabert.
Indurain was emphatic "no, JU's power is a level up from all of the rest" he said.

contrary to the complete and utter BS that has been spewed by some in this tread... physically, LA was a very average pro-cyclist in physical terms... from my recollection the comparisons of LA are to normal people and not to other pro-cyclist... LA had a very average VO2max (the biggest single determining predictor for endurance sport potential) of 83.5 ml/kg/min, indurain 88 ml/kg/min, Hinault 88, LeMond 92.5 (the second highest ever recorded for a human being) the highest being cross country skier Bjørn Dæhlie (96)... but VO2max is sports specific so LeMond might have been up there had he been a cross country skier instead of a cyclist... you'll notice LeMond maxing out around 390W for ~30-40+ min climbs, but after EPO you see a big jump up to 410-440W for less physically endowed athletes and this coincides exactly with EPO entering the peleton in a big way... i'm say that basically anyone who can't demonstrate an 95-100 ml/kg/min VO2max for cycling and rides these hills at 400+ W is a doper (as in the analysis, 78kg =rider + bike OR the traditional 5.7 W/kg)... yes contrary to popular belief, Cadel Evans is very obviously a doper..

"But it would certainly be possible for a rider (like Rasmussen) to do that with good training, especially with a good team which could bring him to the foot of the climbs in a fresh condition.

"Sports is about going beyond one's limits and doing that does not necssarily mean doping," Billat added. "If you say Rasmussen is doped because he is faster (...), that means you might as well stop all competitive sport.

"Just because a rider has accelerated at such and such a point does not mean his performance should be seen as evidence of doping. If you analyse riders' performances at that moment, you would see that they could be below their VO2 max (Maximum Oxygen Uptake Capacity) and are at 85 or 90 percent."

Since Billat's laboratory in Evry, or LEPHE, was opened in the autumn of last year, the former cross country skier and runner has continually tried to illustrate that high level sports performers are often poorly-trained and that scientific methods would prepare athletes for top performances without doping.

She claims experiments with mice have shown those who train intelligently have nothing to envy in terms of performance compared to those mice who train with the help of doping products. Former biathletes Raphael Poiree and his wife, Liv Grete, cyclists, French international rugby players and Paris Saint Germain footballers have all been customers of the LEPHE.

Kenya's Olympic 5,000m silver medallist from Athens, Isabellah Ochichi, said her medal was the product of the Billat method which consists of training using personal physiological training zones in terms of heart rate or pace.

She said it was important to get a personal training schedule for each athlete on an individual basis.

"Sports coaches often increase training volume without taking into account the particular strengths and weaknesses of the athlete," Billat continued. "This approach is not effective and sometimes harmful."

Billat has even helped those who have already used doping products, bringing controversy. "I am not in the business of judging but I will always ask these athletes to give up (doping) before working with them," she said.

"My scientific ethic is to help people progress without drugs and I will always try and help an athlete to stop doping." She added if a person who had been suspended came to her laboratory, she would make them sign an ethics charter before offering them a personalised programme, adding there was no point demonising drug cheats.

doctorSpoc said:

contrary to the complete and utter BS that has been spewed by some in this tread... physically, LA was a very average pro-cyclist in physical terms... from my recollection the comparisons of LA are to normal people and not to other pro-cyclist... LA had a very average VO2max (the biggest single determining predictor for endurance sport potential) of 83.5 ml/kg/min, indurain 88 ml/kg/min, Hinault 88, LeMond 92.5 (the second highest ever recorded for a human being) the highest being cross country skier Bjørn Dæhlie (96)... but VO2max is sports specific so LeMond might have been up there had he been a cross country skier instead of a cyclist... you'll notice LeMond maxing out around 390W for ~30-40+ min climbs, but after EPO you see a big jump up to 410-440W for less physically endowed athletes and this coincides exactly with EPO entering the peleton in a big way... i'm say that basically anyone who can't demonstrate an 95-100 ml/kg/min VO2max for cycling and rides these hills at 400+ W is a doper (as in the analysis, 78kg =rider + bike OR the traditional 5.7 W/kg)... yes contrary to popular belief, Cadel Evans is very obviously a doper..

[quote="doctorSpoc"]LA had a very average VO2max (the biggest single determining predictor for endurance sport potential) of 83.5 ml/kg/min, indurain 88 ml/kg/min, Hinault 88, LeMond 92.5 (the second highest ever recorded for a human being) the highest being cross country skier Bjørn Dæhlie (96)..[QUOTE]

Unless those VO2's were all measured on the same day in the same lab the comparison between is pretty useless..

whiteboytrash said:

"But it would certainly be possible for a rider (like Rasmussen) to do that with good training, especially with a good team which could bring him to the foot of the climbs in a fresh condition.

"Sports is about going beyond one's limits and doing that does not necssarily mean doping," Billat added. "If you say Rasmussen is doped because he is faster (...), that means you might as well stop all competitive sport.

"Just because a rider has accelerated at such and such a point does not mean his performance should be seen as evidence of doping. If you analyse riders' performances at that moment, you would see that they could be below their VO2 max (Maximum Oxygen Uptake Capacity) and are at 85 or 90 percent."

Since Billat's laboratory in Evry, or LEPHE, was opened in the autumn of last year, the former cross country skier and runner has continually tried to illustrate that high level sports performers are often poorly-trained and that scientific methods would prepare athletes for top performances without doping.

She claims experiments with mice have shown those who train intelligently have nothing to envy in terms of performance compared to those mice who train with the help of doping products. Former biathletes Raphael Poiree and his wife, Liv Grete, cyclists, French international rugby players and Paris Saint Germain footballers have all been customers of the LEPHE.

Kenya's Olympic 5,000m silver medallist from Athens, Isabellah Ochichi, said her medal was the product of the Billat method which consists of training using personal physiological training zones in terms of heart rate or pace.

She said it was important to get a personal training schedule for each athlete on an individual basis.

"Sports coaches often increase training volume without taking into account the particular strengths and weaknesses of the athlete," Billat continued. "This approach is not effective and sometimes harmful."

Billat has even helped those who have already used doping products, bringing controversy. "I am not in the business of judging but I will always ask these athletes to give up (doping) before working with them," she said.

"My scientific ethic is to help people progress without drugs and I will always try and help an athlete to stop doping." She added if a person who had been suspended came to her laboratory, she would make them sign an ethics charter before offering them a personalised programme, adding there was no point demonising drug cheats.

i read that too... she's a trainer... she's selling her wares... what is she supposed to say? yeah, use my services, but it won't do you any good unless to supplement my advanced training methods with a handy dose of PEDs? she follows her clients around and knows their every movement before and after they leave her facility? everyone that uses Ferrari says that they just use him for his advanced training methods and no doubt he is one of the best trainers out there right now, but c'mon, Ferrari is also known as a master at prescribing PEDs as well...

She has just bought the book "How I make my first 1.000.000 euros" by Michele FERRARI

[quote="Jono L"][quote="doctorSpoc"]LA had a very average VO2max (the biggest single determining predictor for endurance sport potential) of 83.5 ml/kg/min, indurain 88 ml/kg/min, Hinault 88, LeMond 92.5 (the second highest ever recorded for a human being) the highest being cross country skier Bjørn Dæhlie (96)..

Quoted post said:

Unless those VO2's were all measured on the same day in the same lab the comparison between is pretty useless..

doctorSpoc said:

but back to my point... LA is a very average, run of the mill athelete in physical terms when you compare him to other pro cyclists

I think that's a bit overstated. It's true that Armstrong is no physical freak, but he does have exceptionally low lactate levels, even for a cyclist, an advantage that some suggest he maximized with that high cadence style that Phil/Paul masturbated about for seven years.

IH8LANCE said:

I think that's a bit overstated. It's true that Armstrong is no physical freak, but he does have exceptionally low lactate levels, even for a cyclist, an advantage that some suggest he maximized with that high cadence style that Phil/Paul masturbated about for seven years.

Untrue.

Cow blood, RSR-13 amd EPO control his lactate.

RSR-13 by Allos makes red cells transfer oxygen very different than normal.

IH8LANCE said:

I think that's a bit overstated. It's true that Armstrong is no physical freak, but he does have exceptionally low lactate levels, even for a cyclist, an advantage that some suggest he maximized with that high cadence style that Phil/Paul masturbated about for seven years.

but the only problem is that he didn't always have this ability... and no physiologist on earth right now seems to be able to explain exact how he made this transition (naturally anyway)... Coyle seems to have found that his muscle efficiency has changed... something previously not thought to be possible... i can think of how he changed these things... it's called PEDs, and LOTS of 'em!

The King LA is dead! Long live Contador!

(to get back on track).... The PR machine is going full blast with this kid. Not only did he recover from a death defying injury, but then he won the Tour de France clean (cos he's young) and now we found out that he was sick at the end of the Tour but still managed a great TT

Wonder how long before all the fanboys & girls replace the Armstrong poster with a Contador shrine?

doctorSpoc said:

but the only problem is that he didn't always have this ability... and no physiologist on earth right now seems to be able to explain exact how he made this transition (naturally anyway)... Coyle seems to have found that his muscle efficiency has changed... something previously not thought to be possible... i can think of how he changed these things... it's called PEDs, and LOTS of 'em!

Of course he used PED's...while he had cancer. That has been admitted. What hasn't been admitted is how he and Nike are actually Satan!

Doctor.Tom.M said:

Of course he used PED's...while he had cancer. That has been admitted. What hasn't been admitted is how he and Nike are actually Satan!

oh... sorry.. guess i wasn't being explicit enough.. he used PEDs.. and LOTs of 'em while competing.. is that better? and i'll go on the record as saying he's not satan or the son of satan and his PEDs use like his physiology is not uncommon in the pro-peloton... in fact development of PEDs moves on as we have riders now moving past the numbers that LA produced in his time...

IH8LANCE said:

I think that's a bit overstated. It's true that Armstrong is no physical freak, but he does have exceptionally low lactate levels...

Hold on a second. If Armstrong can lactate than that does make him a physical freak. Look, he's been on the cover of every other magazine. Why not Jugs?

doctorSpoc said:

... but among his peers in the pro peleton the was nothing particularly special about Lance Armstrong

but back to my point... LA is a very average, run of the mill athelete in physical terms when you compare him to other pro cyclists

back to my point dS - LA wasn't so very average, he was the best TdF cyclist of all time - 7 time champion and cylimg at a time where the best worldwide cyclists were competing with more doping products than ever.

You see whatever your points are they don't make sense - lets take TdF 2003 - everyone was on drugs but he came out on top - so how does this happen if he is so 'average'.

Please do not try to justify your view by claiming that he had better drugs as doping is a simpler science than training and many cyclists and teams had oodles of money and access to superb doping programs.

Although there may have been cyclists with bigger hearts, or larger VO2 etc etc LA obviously had the complete package, and if you take out the constants i.e. doping products (as everyone had them) what made Lance so different, so much better especially if as you say he was physically worse off than competitors such as Ulrich - maybe it was technique eh or maybe he isn't so physically inferior as you state.

p.s. I still do not respect LA if as deeply suspected he doped, but I do not blame him.

helmutRoole2 said:

Hold on a second. If Armstrong can lactate than that does make him a physical freak. Look, he's been on the cover of every other magazine. Why not Jugs?

he'll get to lactate when he starts on the oestrogen suplements to balance out the years on testosterone!

doctorSpoc said:

oh... sorry.. guess i wasn't being explicit enough.. he used PEDs.. and LOTs of 'em while competing.. is that better? and i'll go on the record as saying he's not satan or the son of satan and his PEDs use like his physiology is not uncommon in the pro-peloton... in fact development of PEDs moves on as we have riders now moving past the numbers that LA produced in his time...

Ahhh, but when he was sponsored by the great Satan known as Nike (why wouldn't they sponsor their son?) he was a world class triathlete...at the age of 16! It's all a great Nike plot.

Tim Lamkin said:

Confessed…hum…not confessed to antagonist and agitator, I did say your guys are so predictable and so easy to trip up, your replies are without thought nor design, you just attach any thing Disco….funny how banal it all is…I have never seen a group that so dislikes one other group.

O-well all in good fun.... 😉

Sorry Tim, I have been on this board for what a month now and I have still yet to see a useful comment, a personal viewpoint or a response from you that isn't antagonistic or agitating.

All I can say 'slim' is would the real Tim Lamkin please stand up.

plectrum said:

back to my point dS - LA wasn't so very average, he was the best TdF cyclist of all time - 7 time champion and cylimg at a time where the best worldwide cyclists were competing with more doping products than ever.

You see whatever your points are they don't make sense - lets take TdF 2003 - everyone was on drugs but he came out on top - so how does this happen if he is so 'average'.

Please do not try to justify your view by claiming that he had better drugs as doping is a simpler science than training and many cyclists and teams had oodles of money and access to superb doping programs.

Although there may have been cyclists with bigger hearts, or larger VO2 etc etc LA obviously had the complete package, and if you take out the constants i.e. doping products (as everyone had them) what made Lance so different, so much better especially if as you say he was physically worse off than competitors such as Ulrich - maybe it was technique eh or maybe he isn't so physically inferior as you state.

p.s. I still do not respect LA if as deeply suspected he doped, but I do not blame him.

you're guess is as good as mine, but i'm not going to swallow the [censored] being spat out by his PR machine... Coyle tested LA for much of his career and we know for a fact that LA in physiolical terms was very, very average for a pro-cyclist... if we know something we know that...

if i would guess, i would guess exactly what you told me not to tell you... LA had to have a methology, system, substance that no one else had.

we see that pre hematocrit cap at 50% and pre EPO testing Ullrich had 30-40min climbing wattages of 474W (71kg rider equivalency) but after the hematocrit cap and EPO testing he dropped to 440-450W (armstrong's range). he would have demolished Armstrong and every other cycist in the pro peleton at these levels.. he would have went past Rassmussen like he was standing still.

Armstrong had Ferrari designing his training and dopping regime. Ferrari is not just a dope doctor he is also one of the world permier trainers (along with Cyrille Guimard) so i'm sure that helped... as well LA had incredible drive and determination... just a note as well, corntary to popular belief Charmichael was not LAs trainer... Charmichael was a smoke screen for LA to work with Ferrari.. if you read Charmichael 's book it is complete and utter bs...

but please, please don't tell me about LAs exceptional physical attributes because we know that for a fact that this is PR, BS used to get people to swollow LAs sudden performance transformation...