Pros prefer sewups

I look at the various pro bikes shown on
www.cyclingnews.com. Usually at actual races. Most
have tubular tires listed. Some have clincher. But
most have tubulars.

[email hidden] wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mike Krueger said:

Paul Sherwen, on today's Giro TV broadcast, observed
that 80% of the European pro peloton still races on
tubular tires. So much for the naysayers...

Are you sure? How did he determine that that is the case?
A few years back, I noticed that most of the riders in the
Tour d'Suisse were on clinchers. I assumed these same
riders would probably ride the same in other classics.

I am a bit leery about quoting famous race announcers on
technical facts after enjoying the colorful reportage of
Phil Liggett over the years. He laces his otherwise
entertaining accounts with much myth and lore.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? How did he determine that this (title) is
the case?

Quoted message said:

C'mon Jobst, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine
Euro Pros, with the team support they have, would want the
ride of tubulars. Why not? There certainly aren't any
disadvantages to them, since they don't service their
wheels. And I think 'many' advantages.

As long as there aren't any heavy braking descents, I
suppose your scenario might hold, but as few people who
admire the supposed advantages of tubulars know, they don't
like hot rims and cause roll-offs and stem failures on most
of the classic descents in the Alps. This was always a major
problem with tubulars in the great road race tours. The
other is RR losses due to rim glue work and viscosity.
Unless glued with hard (track) glue, they have poorer RR
than clinchers.

Of course this has all been battered around here on
wreck.bike for a long time. I've done the field testing and
have the data. The rest is supposition and wishful thinking.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? How did he determine that this (title) is
the case?

Quoted message said:

C'mon Jobst, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine
Euro Pros, with the team support they have, would want
the ride of tubulars. Why not? There certainly aren't any
disadvantages to them, since they don't service their
wheels. And I think 'many' advantages.

As long as there aren't any heavy braking descents, I
suppose your scenario might hold, but as few people who
admire the supposed advantages of tubulars know, they don't
like hot rims and cause roll-offs and stem failures on most
of the classic descents in the Alps. This was always a
major problem with tubulars in the great road race tours.
The other is RR losses due to rim glue work and viscosity.
Unless glued with hard (track) glue, they have poorer RR
than clinchers.

Of course this has all been battered around here on
wreck.bike for a long time. I've done the field testing and
have the data. The rest is supposition and wishful
thinking.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Jobst,

Have there been any improvements in clinchers or tubulars
since your 1986 rolling resistance tests?

terrymorse.comrrdiscuss.htmlOpen ↗

Carl Fogel

VCopeland-<< Tubiesto clinchers? >><BR><BR>

Can't type, tubie to clinchers...not a new Italian
clincher/tubular.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jobst Brandt
A few years back, I noticed that most of the riders in the
Tour d'Suisse were on clinchers. I assumed these same riders
would probably ride the same in other classics.

Wow, that's interesting observation, because if what you say is true, then they've certainly switched back to tubulars.

Having a look at photos from the past year, I see Lance and USPS on Bontrager tubulars, CSC and Phonak on Zipp tubulars, others (Cofidis, iBanesto, Once, Alessio, Fassa Bartolo, etc.) riding Campy Bora and Hyperon tubulars, and Ullrich on Lightweights...which are also tubulars.

On 24 May 2004 12:48:57 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

VCopeland-<< Tubiesto clinchers? >><BR><BR>

Can't type, tubie to clinchers...not a new Italian
clincher/tubular.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Dear Peter,

Please, we prefer "metanalysis," not "can't type."

"Mis-dividing words" lacks the grandeur of "metanalysis,"
but means the same thing. The classic example is the English
"an orange" arising from various languages such as Spanish
when some tin-eared Englishman mistook "a naranja" as "an
aranja." Similarly, the snake that we call "an adder" was
originally actually "a nadder." Where to cut sounds up into
separate printed words can be tricky.

randomhouse.comindex.pperlOpen ↗

I like your "Tubiesto clinchers" and plan to equip my Fury
RoadMaster with them when its current clinchers wear out.

I'll never resort to what Chalo Colina almost called pasting
tubies to my rims with "frog's not, "which must be some kind
of anti-amphibian protective coating.

Carlf Ogle

Ted B <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt said:

A few years back, I noticed that most of the riders in
the Tour d'Suisse were on clinchers. I assumed these
same riders would probably ride the same in other
classics.

In time trials, majority (if not "all"😉 of the tires used
are tubies (except in the US where sponsorships still
dictate clinchers even on climbing wheels). Don't quote me.
It is probably due to wanting a 19 mm tire (track tires?)
and lightest wheels. So much for their knowledge of RR.

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

Jobst-<< Of course this has all been battered around here
on wreck.bike for a long time. I've done the field testing
and have the data. The rest is supposition and wishful
thinking. >><BR><BR>

Sure has but the point was that most euro pros still use
tubies to race on. You implied that was nonsense, but the
truth is, most do.

Still waiting for someone to count tires and prove whether
this is correct or just a supposition. The only thing I've
been able to find thus far is reports from people who've
worked for them that the Mavic neutral support motos provide
clinchers exclusively, using Michelin and Hutchinson.

Bill Lloyd said:

They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long, extended
heavy braking descents. Sure they use the brakes, but not
a lot -- the faster they go down the hills the better.

Miguel Indurain was famous for changing to clinchers on the
mountain stages of the Tour because he felt they were safer.

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? How did he determine that this (title) is
the case?

Quoted message said:

C'mon Jobst, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine
Euro Pros, with the team support they have, would want
the ride of tubulars. Why not? There certainly aren't any
disadvantages to them, since they don't service their
wheels. And I think 'many' advantages.

As long as there aren't any heavy braking descents, I
suppose your scenario might hold, but as few people who
admire the supposed advantages of tubulars know, they
don't like hot rims and cause roll-offs and stem failures
on most of the classic descents in the Alps. This was
always a major problem with tubulars in the great road
race tours. The other is RR losses due to rim glue work
and viscosity. Unless glued with hard (track) glue, they
have poorer RR than clinchers.

Of course this has all been battered around here on
wreck.bike for a long time. I've done the field testing
and have the data. The rest is supposition and wishful
thinking.

Jobst,

They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long, extended
heavy braking descents. Sure they use the brakes, but not a
lot -- the faster they go down the hills the better.

And they also have mechanics that glue on new tires every 2
or 3 days of racing, and glue them on well. If they flat,
they just get a new wheel.

If I had full team support, I'd ride tubies. Because I
don't, I ride clinchers -- they're a helluva lot easier to
maintain and I don't have to waste $70 if I get a flat (or
mail away to get a tire fixed, or deal with the labor
myself). But if someone wanted to give me tubies and
maintain everything for me, I'd save the 50-100 grams a
wheel. The pros make the same choice. Well, actually, the
pros sponsors do.

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

Have there been any improvements in clinchers or tubulars
since your 1986 rolling resistance tests?

Improvements to clinchers? Maybe. Certainly there have
been changes, but it is not at all clear that those
represent improvements.

I'd be interested to see how the current crop of tires does.
The seat of my pants is not such a fine instrument, but the
Vittoria clinchers I have on my bike now seem like the
fastest tires I've ever ridden.

Quoted message said:

Improvements to tubulars? Seeing as how several
manufacturers have dropped tubulars from their inventory,
it's not real likely. Yeah, I know that there are new
brands, such as Tufo, but the market is simply not there
to provide impetus for improving them. Heck, perhaps the
most popular glue for tubulars is something meant to use
to attach interior trim on car doors (FasTak).

Racers will get what they want, for better or worse. So as
long as they want tubulars, good ones will be made. I'm sure
the racing tubulars from Vittoria, etc., these days are as
good or better than ever -- although at a price.

OTOH, I'm amazed at the variety of cheapish tubulars Andrew
Muzi has listed on his website. This makes good old bikes
with tubulars a lot less unappealing.

I don't get many flats, but I still think tubulars are a
royal, unnecessary PITA, with possible safety issues too.
But if *you* like them, for whatever reason, just ride 'em,
and ignore the peanut gallery.

Matt O.

Bill Lloyd said:

They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long, extended
heavy braking descents. Sure they use the brakes, but not
a lot -- the faster they go down the hills the better.

Don't repeat that old saw. The faster you descend (above a
creep) on alpine roads, the harder you must brake and the
hotter the rims get intermittently. This isn't a hazard for
clinchers but it is for tubulars on which the glue melts and
remains soft during the braking, thus allowing the tire to
creep until the valve breaks off or the tire rolls.

That is the descending problem, RR is the other but
constant one.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Lloyd said:

They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long,
extended heavy braking descents. Sure they use the
brakes, but not a lot -- the faster they go down the
hills the better.

Don't repeat that old saw. The faster you descend (above a
creep) on alpine roads, the harder you must brake and the
hotter the rims get intermittently.

This isn't true, since the faster you go the more air
resistance will slow you down. There is some descent speed
that is the worst for heating up the rims, somewhere faster
than a creep but slower than the "terminal velocity" for
the grade.

Shayne Wissler

Jobst Brandt said:

The faster you descend (above a creep) on alpine roads,
the harder you must brake and the hotter the rims get
intermittently.

The worst case for rim heating is when you're descending
rather slowly, maybe 10 mph or so. The brakes absorb the
most energy on a given descent and the air cooling is the
lowest. I notice the most heating when descending dirt roads
of about 10-12%, since I can't go very fast and have to
brake almost constantly.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Shayne Wissler said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long,
extended heavy braking descents. Sure they use the
brakes, but not a lot -- the faster they go down the
hills the better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't repeat that old saw. The faster you descend (above
a creep) on alpine roads, the harder you must brake and
the hotter the rims get intermittently.

Quoted message said:

This isn't true, since the faster you go the more air
resistance will slow you down. There is some descent speed
that is the worst for heating up the rims, somewhere
faster than a creep but slower than the "terminal
velocity" for the grade.

I think you are looking at average power dissipation on a
descent. As I said, the faster you go the higher the braking
temperatures. I don't know if you are a motorcycle type
descender but approaching a turn at 40mph instead of 30mph
has nothing to do with wind losses and everything to do with
1/2mv**2 in which all that energy goes into the rim to make
the 10mph turn.

I have often related the experiments I did with tubulars in
the Alps on roads like the one in this picture:

tinyurl.compd86Open ↗

There are many roads like this and this one has 49 of these
turns between the top and the valley. Other roads with
similar turns may not be as scenically spectacular, but the
effect is the same. My first such encounters was the south
side of the Gotthard Pass in the val Tremola. I blew out a
tire and damaged another.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Ted B said:

Jobst Brandt said:

A few years back, I noticed that most of the riders in
the Tour d'Suisse were on clinchers. I assumed these
same riders would probably ride the same in other
classics.

Wow, that's interesting observation, because if what you
say is true, then they've certainly switched back to
tubulars.

Having a look at photos from the past year, I see Lance and
USPS on Bontrager tubulars, CSC and Phonak on Zipp
tubulars, others (Cofidis, iBanesto, Once, Alessio, Fassa
Bartolo, etc.) riding Campy Bora and Hyperon tubulars, and
Ullrich on Lightweights...which are also tubulars.

Aha! Maybe the rise of the carbon rim is giving tubulars
a rebirth?

Any carbon clincher rims available?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tim McNamara
Still waiting for someone to count tires and prove whether
this is correct or just a supposition.

Looking carefully at photos from within the last year, I see plenty of tubulars. Furthermore, there are no clincher versions of certain pro-level wheelsets frequently visible in the photos (e.g. Campy Bora, Zipp Z3/Z4 (Phonak, CSC), Bontrager [censored] Lite (USPS), Lightweight (Ullrich)), so that's a given right there.

Quoted post said:

The only thing I've
been able to find thus far is reports from people who've
worked for them that the Mavic neutral support motos provide
clinchers exclusively, using Michelin and Hutchinson.

That isn't suprising being 'neutral support' (i.e. emergency situation), just as neutral support provides water bottles filled with *water only*.

David L. Johnson said:

Terry Morse said:

The worst case for rim heating is when you're descending
rather slowly, maybe 10 mph or so. The brakes absorb the
most energy on a given descent and the air cooling is
the lowest. I notice the most heating when descending
dirt roads of about 10-12%, since I can't go very fast
and have to brake almost constantly.

You are missing something in that analysis: since you are
going slower, the heat has more time to dissipate.

The valid issue I think you're referring to is that less
power is consumed at slower speeds. Time to dissipate is not
an issue on a sufficiently long road, since the rims have
enough time to reach a steady state temperature. In
comparison between intermittent heavy braking at high
speeds, and moderate steady braking at slower speeds, the
latter typically produces a higher temperature. A simple
energy balance can explain this:

1. a high speeds, more braking power is produced by the wind
instead of the brakes
2. more wind means more air cooling of the rims.

At some slow speed, the power generated by the brakes is low
enough to keep the rim temperature low. At these slow
speeds, a large portion of the heat must be dissipated
through the rather poor radiation mechanism. I've not found
a slow enough speed to make the rims cooler, though. When
following a timid descender at slow speeds, constant braking
heats my rims to near boiling temperatures. The same road
only produces barely warm rims when I'm free to descend at
my own speed.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Terry Morse said:

At some slow speed, the power generated by the brakes is
low enough to keep the rim temperature low. At these slow
speeds, a large portion of the heat must be dissipated
through the rather poor radiation mechanism. I've not found
a slow enough speed to make the rims cooler, though. When
following a timid descender at slow speeds, constant
braking heats my rims to near boiling temperatures. The
same road only produces barely warm rims when I'm free to
descend at my own speed.

There is a big difference between a hill that can be
descended at constant high speed, where the situation will
be as you describe, and one that irrespective of the overall
speed requires rapid braking to low speeds at tight corners,
where the highest temperatures are reached when those
corners are approached at very high speeds.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]>
Distortion Field!

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

Quoted message said:

> They pros aren't doing loaded touring with long,
> extended heavy braking descents. Sure they use the
> brakes, but not a lot -- the faster they go down the
> hills the better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't repeat that old saw. The faster you descend
(above a creep) on alpine roads, the harder you must
brake and the hotter the rims get intermittently.

Quoted message said:

This isn't true, since the faster you go the more air
resistance will slow you down. There is some descent
speed that is the worst for heating up the rims,
somewhere faster than a creep but slower than the
"terminal velocity" for the grade.

I think you are looking at average power dissipation on a
descent. As I said, the faster you go the higher the
braking temperatures. I don't know if you are a motorcycle
type descender but approaching a turn at 40mph instead of
30mph has nothing to do with wind losses and everything to
do with 1/2mv**2 in which all that energy goes into the
rim to make the 10mph turn.

I have often related the experiments I did with tubulars
in the Alps on roads like the one in this picture:

tinyurl.compd86Open ↗

Yes. I was thinking of my typical descending problem given
the mountains around where I live, you've got a point about
those switchbacks. For me the issue is often between going
slower but having hotter rims or going faster and not being
perfectly comfortable with the speed. This tradeoff drives
my speed up.

Quoted message said:

There are many roads like this and this one has 49 of
these turns between the top and the valley. Other roads
with similar turns may not be as scenically spectacular,
but the effect is the same. My first such encounters was
the south side of the Gotthard Pass in the val Tremola. I
blew out a tire and damaged another.

What chances does someone have at staying upright when
blowing out a tire at 30MPH? Does it blow out during the
deceleration, or sometime afterwards, once the air inside
the tire has absorbed more of the heat energy from the rim?

Sometimes during a decent I'll stop at points and spray
water on my rims and wait for them to cool. Aside from the
temporary reduction in braking power from wet rims, is this
a bad idea?

Shayne Wissler