1" to 1" 1/8 steering

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by mrvlhs, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    I was hit by a car and the fork was severely damaged so I'm getting a new one. Where I live it's almost impossible to find a threaded 1" aluminium fork but I was lucky enough to find one at a decent price. This fork has thread all the way from top to bottom and has a steerer of 24-26cm.

    My current fork is a 1" threaded aluminium fork, with about 16cm steering tube and a quill to threadless adapter adding 6cm (making the steering a total of 22cm long). The adapter is 1" to 1", so it does not change the size of the steerer. Since my stem is 1" 1/8, there's a plate hugging the quill adapter to make it that size (see picture below).


    Currently I'm facing 2 issues:

    1. The fork and adapter look like they got welded from lack of grease between them when installed (I bought the bike used and had no idea about this) so it's been proving very hard to separate them. Any tips on that? I've been told by several stores it's not possible to remove the fork without removing the adapter but I haven't tried it myself. I'm a little affraid of doing it myself cause I'm not familiar with the inner workings and don't want to damage anything. In the event it's not removable this way, what would you suggest, using a drill to cut the tube close to the steerer ring?

    2. Because the new steerer tube is so long, I would like to keep it just the way it is and hug it with the plate I mentioned to make it 1" 1/8 instead of cutting it and putting and adapter on top because a) it's less work b) it's lighter c) I have more room for height adjustments and d) it's cheaper (in case I can't save mine and need to buy an adapter). My only concern is that the previous setup had two flat surfaces in contact and now I would be having a flat and a threaded surface in contact. Would that prove any problem in terms of security or others? Should I use grease there as well? What would be the best way to do it?

    Thank you so much for the patience, I appreciate any help!
     

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  2. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    First, you'll have to get that adapter off in order to remove the fork. The headset wont' slide over it, will it? If I'm picturing this correctly, the adapter fits inside the steerer and is held in place with a bolt on top connected to an expander wedge on the bottom. Loosen the bolt and whack it with a mallet to free the wedge, and if it still won't come out, turn the bike over and soak the inside of the fork with with Liquid Wrench and keep trying. I've had luck with Finish Line Chill Zone, and I've heard Coca-Cola works, too. Or, if you have access to a rotary cutter, you can split the adapter (and very likely the top of the steerer, too), but that might still leave the headset unrecoverable.

    Second, I don't know how much steerer you intend to have standing clear of your frame, but I advise you not to too high. I also don't know where the plate comes in, as steerer and headset parts are all cylindrical. You can put 1" diameter shims (available at your shop) between the top of the headset bearing and the lock ring, but I advise going no higher than maybe 1.5 inches. While 1" steerer tubes are difficult to break, they are not stiff, so you don't want too much torque on it above the headset bearing.
     
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  3. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Trouble is, the adapter isn't threaded, so you can't get the top half of the headset off the fork.
    If you can't get the adapter out, something will have to be cut to get the fork out.
    A Dremel would probably cut the lockring and cone in a couple of minutes.
    If you can get just a little slack in the fork assembly, it'd probably be possible to cut the fork out from below.
    Pry the crown race up a little, then Cut the crown off.
    That'd also put you in a good position to free your adapter.
    The proper name for those plates you mention is shims.
    1"-to-1 1/8" shims simply put.
     
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  4. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    I currently don't have the bolt from the top of the adapter 'cause the guy at the bike shop lost it and I'm waiting for him to find it. Can I whack with a hammer on the adapter itself or is that a bad idea? (I think this was how the guy was doing it since he removed the bolt completely. I'm thinking maybe he wasn't that good of a professional)

    I will still try to unscrew the headset and see if it passes through the adapter tonight but it makes sense if it doesn't because of the lack of thread as mentioned. In terms of soaking, would WD40 or Petrol work? I don't have those products in my country, I do have coke though.

    I wasn't thinking about putting more than 1,5" of spacers below the stem but it's nice to have the steerer tube a little longer on top of the stem in case I might want to sell it or use it in another bike someday. Thank you for the advice!

    I would also like to thank @dabac for the advice on drilling :)

    In regards to the long shim, I still don't know if it would be a good or bad idea to use it over a threaded fork. Any comments on that folks?

    Thank you all!
     
  5. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Re:banging on the adapter
    Have a look at these quill stems:https://www.google.se/search?site=w...c.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..1.10.1567.0.BESKKLcHoIo
    Your adapter looks the same at the end that gets inserted into the fork.
    Banging on it is most likely to drive the wedge in tighter.

    Petrol isn't known for its lubricating properties. But it won't hurt. But it smells nasty.
    If I were to improvise, I'd be more prone to try kerosene.
    Or white spirits.
    WD-40 isn't a great penetrant, but fairly nice to handle.
    The shim itself won't be bothered by being used over threads.
    But it's generally frowned upon to use a threadless stem on the threaded part of a threaded steerer.
    The threads act as stress risers AKA a sign saying "break here", which can end badly.
    The shim won't do much to mitigate this.
     
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  6. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    The adapters I have, have two bolts at the top.
    One to hold a top cap, even though it's not functionally required, and one to pull the wedge up.
    The one pulling the wedge up is the one that should be loosened only a turn or two, then knocked down to loosen the wedge.
    Losing the one holding the top cap should be a non-issue for anyone but a terminally ham-fisted mechanic, since it's a standard length, head and thread.
    Replacing the one pulling the wedge up is a little trickier, since it's not a standard length. But anyone masquerading as a bike mechanic ought to have a bunch of other stems to borrow one from.
     
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  7. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    Your information is invaluable, thank you! Of course, it does make perfect sense that the thread below the shim would be under a lot more pressure than the others, I feel kind of stupid now that I think about it. So, it seems to me that the best solution is then to cut the new fork to a propper size and put on this one or another adapter on top.

    I don't think my adapter has two screws but I'll try to figure everything out tomorrow. I think I have all the information I need, now I just need a little patience and luck. Thank you very much for all the support! :)
     
  8. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Threadless to threadless adapters and extenders have two pinch bolts. Threaded to threadless adapters have a wedge inside the steerer. Any bolt that's long enough and can be threaded into the wedge can be used to drive it out. Ask you shop if they have any old quill stems that could be sacrificed for this bolt.
     
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  9. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    What about if I use some tool that is long and thin enough to get down there, like a screwdriver?
     
  10. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Possible, but not ideal.
    If the screwdriver head end up in the threaded hole you are likely to damage the threads. Or the screwdriver. Or jam the screwdriver in there.
    Not much apart from a bolt that'll pass through and engage well with the wedge.
    Given that a new bolt should be easy enough to come by, Don't improvise unless there's a pressing need to get the bike rideable NOW.
     
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  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FIRST ...

    You do NOT want to leave the new fork's steerer at it's full length because, while the odds are small, if you were to do a header, it would be easier to become impaled on the longer extension ...

    If you must, then I would suggest that you try to limit the additional amount to under 3cm.​

    Even if the old steerer is aluminum, the shim is undoubtedly aluminum ... since aluminum expands at a different rate, if you apply heat from a heat gun or propane/other "torch" then the expansion may-or-break the bond ...

    There are solvents which you can try to use to facilitate breaking the bond ... household ammonia is one recommendation which I have read may-or-may-not work ...

    Of course, the shop want to sell you a new "plate"/(shim) ...

    and/or quill adapter!​
    Ultimately, YOU need to decide how much you want to spend-or-save ...​

    If you do NOT have a heat gun or a propane torch, you can probably hold it over your kitchen stove ... treat it like a marshmallow or hot dog being roasted over a campfire ...
    Try not to burn YOURSELF regardless of what you use to heat the shim!

    Of course, since a part of the shim is extending above the quill adapter, you could just take a pair of pliers and grasp a portion of the shim and then gently "open" it up ... slide a flat head screwdriver under the expanding edge ... etc.

    BTW. Since the "old" fork is damaged, you could just PLAN to cut the steerer at some intermediate point ...

    This is what I would probably try to do ...
    1. un-thread the headset's two locking nuts which secure the fork to the frame ...
    2. slide the fork down ...
    3. cut the fork's steerer near the junction between the steerer & the fork's shoulder ...
    4. now, you can simply slide the fork's steerer from the frame AND you can more easily manipulate the quill adapter & steerer ...
      • install the stem on the quill adapter to provide a "handle" ...
      • if you have a (set of) FLAT FILE(s) or a HAND GRINDER or a BENCH GRINDER AND you are very patient (in the former case) OR fairly coordinated (in the latter two cases), then you can carefully grind away a longitudinal slice which is 90%-or-more of the steerer which is a shrouding the quill adapter ...
        • carefully finish the cutting through the steerer with the File until you reach the quill adapter ...
      • EITHER put the assembly in a bench vise (or whatever equivalent you can come up with) whereby the portion of the steerer which is not shrouding the quill adapter is the portion which is being clamped with the quill side down ...
        • with the "wedge" already removed insert a salvage quill or a half-round File or something which you will strike to see if the quill adapter can be knocked loose
      • IF it doesn't move after a couple of "whacks" then remove the assembly and with the quill side up, try twisting the stem-and-quill from the steerer ...
      • OR, if you don't have a bench vise, then try using a pair of slip-joint pliers or a pipe wrench to twist the steerer off the quill adapter
      • IF it still doesn't move then "cut" another longitudinal slice 180º ...
        • REPEAT ...
        • almost done ...
    Now, you simply have to remove the race from the old fork & install it on the new fork ...

    Re-assemble the fork & frame ...

    DONE!

    BTW. Installing the headset race on the fork isn't hard, but it may require some effort ...

    Be sure that the headset is properly adjusted before riding ...

    IF-or-WHEN in doubt, you can have one of your local bike shops install the headset race on the fork AND the fork in the frame.
     
    #11 alfeng, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
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  12. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    Hi guys, I am back!

    I went to an LBS and we cut the steerer just between the frame and the top headset lockring. I will need a new quill adapter. I was thinking should I get 1" to 1" and add the shim to 1+1/8" or simply get an adapter that's 1" to 1+1/8"?

    Also, any tips on how to get the lockring out? These are pretty hard to find... how should I search on eBay for one?
     

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  13. cyclenthusias44

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    Thanks for the wonderful information. By the way, why did you recommended 3 cms?
     
  14. cyclenthusias44

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    Well, Ebay is not only the place. You can search on various other sites.
     
  15. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    IMO, it probably isn't good to have too much more than an inch of excess steerer simply for the previously mentioned possibility of impalement ...

    And, an inch allows a reasonable amount of spacers between the headset and the stem in a threadless fork installation.​

    BTW. I think a 1"-to-1_1/8" quill adapter is a much better choice than a 1"-to-1" quill adapter + shim because a 1" stem in the length you want for a threadless steerer may be hard to find, now ... so, why bother with the shim if you don't otherwise need to add it?

    MUCH less important, a stem designed for a 1" threadless steerer has a cosmetically peculiar appearance, IMO ... so the only reason to have a threadless stem which will only fit on a 1" steerer is because a person was a comparatively early adopter of threadless headsets (i.e., prior to 1_1/8" steerers/headesets on aluminum & CF frames becoming the norm) ...​

    BTW2. This is after-the-fact since you apparently already have your current, new fork, but you could probably have found a fork with a 1" threadless steerer & gone with "clean" installation sans quill adapter.
     
  16. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    IMO, a threaded headset does not need a lockring ...

    However, if I really felt a need for a lockring and if I couldn't readily find one, then I would probably take an old spoke (or, a wire coat hanger!?!) and bend it around the steerer and then trim it to fit snugly (i.e., with the ends "flush" to one another when compressed).

    OR, you could consider using the thinnest spacer which you have for the lockring ...

    BTW. I always found the interior 'key' on the lockring to be more of an annoyance.​
     
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  17. mrvlhs

    mrvlhs New Member

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    Thank you for all the info. I already chose a fork but havent bought it yet. It's pretty hard already to find 1" forks, and I think the store only sells threaded. Wouldn't that mean I'd have to change the headset? I'm not feeling like splurging money. What I'm curious about is if my bike would fit a 1"1/8 fork all entirely, that would be great, I'll have to find it out.

    If you look at my first photo I think the lockring was poorly installed, sicne according to this pic it should be above the spacers: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/headset-threaded-small.jpg

    Could you please elaborate on why one wouldn't need a lockring on a threaded fork? I don't mind using spacers if it's safe and it saves me work.
     
  18. cyclenthusias44

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    I understood. Thanks for the wonderful information.
     
  19. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    I think Alfeng is thinking about the keyed washer, not the threaded lockring.

    And yeah, I don't like them either.
     
  20. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Beyond your LBS & the traditional mail order retailers (Nashbar, Excel, Colorado Cyclist, etc.), eBay is undoubtedly the go-to venue for buying (and selling) cycling components in the US ...

    While there aren't too many immediate options for you, there ARE 1" threadless forks listed on eBay ...


    Depending on the length of your frame's head tube, if the UN-threaded portion of a threaded fork is sufficient to accommodate the combined length of the head tube + headset's stack + spacers + stem, then a truncated threaded fork can be used in a threadless application.

    With any threaded fork you need to ensure that the fork can use the brake caliper of your choice (some older, threaded steel forks may need a brake caliper with a longer "reach" [e.g., 55-73] than is currently the norm).
    As far as ponying up for a new headset, I hear you ...

    But, a USED lock nut should not be that difficult to find for a few dollars (or, free?) at an LBS which has been in business for more than a decade... .the only (?) caveat is to ensure that the lock nut is not intended for a FRENCH threaded fork.

    You can find NEW lock nuts on eBay ...

    Because your damaged headset appears to be a Shimano headset, IF you are handy then you can convert it to a threadless headset by CAREFULLY machining out the threads of the upper cup ... this was an occasional option by some people a dozen-or-so years ago so that they could continue to use their then-recently purchased Dura Ace headsets!

    I think that most-if-not all Shimano headsets have alloy cups ... so, the procedure should be viable with their other headsets, too.

    If you are really handy, you could do the rough work with a half-round hand file ...

    BUT, the final work should probably be done with a drum sander ...

    A great deal of trial-and-error fitting should probably be done to ensure that no more material is removed than is absolutely necessary otherwise the cup will be EITHER "toast" or will need to be shimmed (a so-called "compression cup" is used on some headsets accommodates slight imprecisions) & much MORE work will need to be done ...

    BTW. Having a machinist perform the operation will cost more than most new, threadless headsets; so, unless you are a machinist OR unless you have a friend who is a machinist, this is a DIY conversion which is NOT for the faint-of-heart or someone who has not previously worked with hand-or-machine tools.​
    You could execute the same procedure with a steel headset's upper cup, but it would take more effort ...​

    BTW. It would indeed be great if a 1 1/8" fork could be substituted for a 1" fork ... but, it cannot (I 'tested' this notion a long time ago) ...

    While a 1 1/8" fork's steerer can easily fit inside the head tube designed for a 1" fork-and-headset, the 1 1/8" fork will not fit inside the headset's collars which are sleeved within the head tube ...

    UNLESS someone fabricates a headset which sleeves over the head tube -- that is, I believe that it could theoretically be done for lugged frames ... there is some inconsistency due to more hand finishing on better frames OR chrome plating OR paint ... it would almost necessarily need to be custom machining.​

    Let YOUR aesthetic sensibilities determine whether you opt for a fork with straight legs or curved legs ...

    Regardless, I would NOT buy another alloy fork if I were you ...

    The advantage of a CF fork is weight ... but, IMO, there is no advantage to how it affects the bike's handling over a good steel fork ...

    So, I will continue to recommend you consider a 'threadless' steel fork as your replacement ...​

    BTW. dabac is correct ... this may-or-may-not be a nomenclature issue ...

    I believe that I have mistaken your use of the term "lockring" whereby you have probably been referring to the threaded lock nut rather than to the auxiliary washer which has a tooth on its inner circumference which then keys into a shallow groove that has often been machined into the rear of the steerer's column.​

    BTW2/FYI. If you still have the lock nut ...

    AND, if you can remove it from the steerer ...

    You can probably chase the threads by threading it onto another forks's threaded steerer column and thereby make it viable and the need to purchase a replacement lock nut unnecessary other than for cosmetic reasons.

     
    #20 alfeng, May 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
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