1998 v. 2004 Litespeed Ultimate frame

[TaxesStink]

I have spent a little time passively looking for a Ti frame. I have
come across a 1998 Litespeed Ultimate frame that is in excellent
condition for a reasonable price with fairly low miles. Assuming there

is nothing wrong w/ the 1998 model, how much better is the 2004/2005
model?


The newer models have several advantages:
1 - carbon stays
2 - improved aerodynamics
3 - improved Ti mfg. technology (??)


Any insight would be greatly appreciated...


Also, is there any scenario where one of you might consider a 1998
model over a new one?


Thanks so much in advance.

 

[maxo]

If the price is right--do it. I'd personally prefer non-carbon stays as
I doubt they really improve ride quality significantly and they add to
the complexity and perhaps subtract from the durability of the frame.
An all ti frame will last you a long long time, but add some carbon
fiber in there, and suddenly that life is shortened a bit.

Aerodynamics? Whatever. It's a FRAME. With the money you save by
buying used, you can get some super slick aero wheels that might
actually make a difference.

Improved tech? Perhaps, but I doubt it'll be something that affects
you in any real manner.

If the frame fits and the price is right, buy it and spend your
remaining bucks on fun stuff like wheels, components, and beer.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> If the price is right--do it. I'd personally prefer non-carbon stays as
> I doubt they really improve ride quality significantly and they add to
> the complexity and perhaps subtract from the durability of the frame.
> An all ti frame will last you a long long time, but add some carbon
> fiber in there, and suddenly that life is shortened a bit.
>
> Aerodynamics? Whatever. It's a FRAME. With the money you save by
> buying used, you can get some super slick aero wheels that might
> actually make a difference.
>
> Improved tech? Perhaps, but I doubt it'll be something that affects
> you in any real manner.
>
> If the frame fits and the price is right, buy it and spend your
> remaining bucks on fun stuff like wheels, components, and beer.

Don't overlook one of the most-significant advantages of a new (vs used)
frameset- warranties are nearly always for the original-owner only.
Something to keep in mind when figuring out how much a used frame is really
worth, since, in the real world, things do happen once in a while. If the
used bike is cheap enough (and, of course, the right size), it could still
be a great deal. Or if you're sure the original owner is going to be around
to process any potential warranty claim for you.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[bfd]

This is true. My buddy bought a brand new Merlin ti frame back in 1992
or 93. Last year, he found that it had crack around the shifter boss.
Litespeed, who now owns Merlin, warrantied the frame because he was the
"original owner" and repaired it. It looks brand new and he "upgraded"
to DA 10!

 

[gds]

maxo wrote:
>
..
> An all ti frame will last you a long long time, but add some carbon
> fiber in there, and suddenly that life is shortened a bit.
>

Is there actually evidence of this? Not arguing the point but wondering
as I hear differing opinions on the usefull life of carbon but haven't
seen any data.

 

[maxo]

gds wrote:
> maxo wrote:
> >
> .
> > An all ti frame will last you a long long time, but add some carbon
> > fiber in there, and suddenly that life is shortened a bit.
> >
>
> Is there actually evidence of this? Not arguing the point but wondering
> as I hear differing opinions on the usefull life of carbon but haven't
> seen any data.

I'm not trying to start some kind of holy frame material war--but it
just seems like welded ti is going to be significantly longer lasting
compared to something that's glued. I'm not complaining about the
carbon, but the joining method.

FWIW, I did own one of those "bonded" Trek bikes from the early
nineties.

 

[bfd]

maxo states:

<it just seems like welded ti is going to be significantly longer
lasting compared to something that's glued.>

I use to think this too. However, after seeing my friend's Merlin
titanium frame crack on the down tube at the shifter boss, and then
finding out this is actually quite common, I would then to disagree.

I have a 8 year old Calfee tetra-custom that I bought used and even
after 3 crashes, which included personal injury to myself, the frame
just keeps on ticking. The way Calfee "joins" his tube is unique and
probably the reason why it has a 25 year warranty!

Yes, Calfee can be easily repaired too:

http://damonrinard.com/photos/calfeedoh.jpg

 

[The Wogster]

TaxesStink wrote:
> I have spent a little time passively looking for a Ti frame. I have
> come across a 1998 Litespeed Ultimate frame that is in excellent
> condition for a reasonable price with fairly low miles. Assuming there
>
> is nothing wrong w/ the 1998 model, how much better is the 2004/2005
> model?
>
>
> The newer models have several advantages:
> 1 - carbon stays
> 2 - improved aerodynamics
> 3 - improved Ti mfg. technology (??)
>
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated...
>
>
> Also, is there any scenario where one of you might consider a 1998
> model over a new one?
>

If your looking at just the frame, not a whole bike with a frame, there
probably isn't a huge difference, the newer one might be a little
lighter, in that the plastic stays are lighter, but you can compensate
for that difference in other places. Now the real issue, is the
difference in price, for example if the difference is $500, that might
mean being able to go for a higher end driveline, or maybe disc instead
of rim brakes, when you build it up.

W

 

[[email protected]]

TaxesStink wrote:

> I have spent a little time passively looking for a Ti frame. I have
> come across a 1998 Litespeed Ultimate frame that is in excellent
> condition for a reasonable price with fairly low miles. Assuming there
>
> is nothing wrong w/ the 1998 model, how much better is the 2004/2005
> model?
>
>
> The newer models have several advantages:
> 1 - carbon stays
> 2 - improved aerodynamics
> 3 - improved Ti mfg. technology (??)
>
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated...
>
>
> Also, is there any scenario where one of you might consider a 1998
> model over a new one?
>
>
> Thanks so much in advance.

G'day TaxesStink (another thread one day on that name)

I have a Litespeed Ultimate that I estimate is about 1995 vintage. I
bought it in 1998 after the Australian Institute of Sport had finished
with it and no doubt given it a thrashing - I like to think it was
Stewie O'Grady's favourite steed. It has straight seat stays and a
curved downtube, and I'm pretty sure was made from 3/2.5 Ti, before
they switched the Ultimate to 6/4, but who cares? My LBS got it
re-polished before setting it up for me and it looked new, and still
does. I've done 5-10,000 km a year on it since then and am on my third
groupset and second set of decals. It now has mixed Chorus/Record with
some custom Record wheels. I've just fitted an Easton EC90SL fork and
upgraded it to Aheadset. The weight now is just under 8.0kg, plus
pedals. Spend the same now and you would be down around 7.0kg, but I
have more than that on my gut. I have a bike that looks as good as any
new one, and where I ride there are a lot of top-end bikes. With the
new fork, it corners even better than before - couldn't get much
better. The ride is magnificent - especially compared to the harsh Al
thing I had before. Before I bought it, I rode a bunch of bikes on the
same day and it thrashed all of them for comfort and speed. I don't see
myself buying another bike in a long time - why? I can still ride with
the fast bunch (at 45 y.o.) and win the odd sprint, but it's not the
bike holding me back. One thing I love about it is after a wet ride, I
just hose it down and it looks new again. I laugh at the poor fish who
have a race bike and a training/wet bike.

So, what should you do? No question in my mind. If the frame checks out
OK...

Donga

 

[[email protected]]

Discs on an Ultimate?

 

[[email protected]]

The cost of a warranty is built into the price of a new bike. If you
buy a 2nd hand frame like this, that should last forever, for a great
price, don't worry about a warranty unless the frame already has a
fault. If it's OK, you're well ahead.

 

[The Wogster]

[email protected] wrote:
> Discs on an Ultimate?
>
Okay, maybe not discs, but it's an example, saving some serious coin on
the frame can allow for some other nice things....

W

 

[bfd]

W states:

<the newer one might be a little lighter, in that the plastic stays are
lighter>

Actually, this is not true. Compare a all ti bike with one that is
ti/carbon rear end and you'll find that in most cases, the ti/carbon
rear end mix is HEAVIER than the all ti version!

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> The cost of a warranty is built into the price of a new bike. If you
> buy a 2nd hand frame like this, that should last forever, for a great
> price, don't worry about a warranty unless the frame already has a
> fault. If it's OK, you're well ahead.

The cost of the warranty *is* built into the price of the new bike, which
means you need to heavily discount the value of the used one without it.
Metal frames, when defective or simply worn out, tend to fail after a bit of
use, more so than when relatively new. Carbon frames, when they have an
issue, tend to show it sooner, and don't have the "wear & tear" issues down
the road. But either way you are adding substantial value to the frame when
it has a warranty.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The cost of a warranty is built into the price of a new bike. If you
> buy a 2nd hand frame like this, that should last forever, for a great
> price, don't worry about a warranty unless the frame already has a
> fault. If it's OK, you're well ahead.
>

 

[[email protected]]

bfd wrote:

> W states:
>
> <the newer one might be a little lighter, in that the plastic stays are
> lighter>
>
> Actually, this is not true. Compare a all ti bike with one that is
> ti/carbon rear end and you'll find that in most cases, the ti/carbon
> rear end mix is HEAVIER than the all ti version!

The 2006 Litespeed Ultimate (with carbon rear triangle) will be lighter
than the 1998 version (all Ti), because of the fancier butted and
shaped tube designs that trim down the weight. Competitors have done a
lot since 1998 to produce ever-lighter bikes and Litespeed have gone
with them. Also, the Ultimate is now made of 6/4.5 Ti which is lighter
than the earlier versions (this might have been introduced in 1998, I
think).

 

[[email protected]]

If you are after a Litespeed and can't afford it new but still want
that warranty, there is a shop on the net that deals in reconditioned
Litespeeds, Merlins and others with full warranties. You do pay more
than in a private sale, but as Mike suggests, you get peace of mind for
that.