advice sought for custom road bike

[Kocsis]

After many years of cycling, I got a wonderful present from my wife: my choice of custom road bike, either the Seven Axiom SG frame or the corresponding (?) Independent Fabrication Ti Crown Jewel. I would appreciate feedback re above choice, as well as suggestions for components - groupset (Campi vs Shimano; which level), fork, etc. Amazingly, price is no object....cheaper than a car and much more healthy!

I am 50 (birthday present), 5'10", 150 lbs, intend to use bike mostly on 30-50 mi rides on roads...occassionally a little longer. In good shape, though my back is not what it used to be. Last few years I rode a Ti mtn bike, and will continue to do so on trails. Want something that is minimal maintaintenance - would like to spend my little available time on riding; high performance, but somewhat forgiving on roads. In auto terms, more like a GT than a pure, raw race car. More like a Porsche than a Viper. I've tried some carbon frames and found them too stiff; really liked the Seven Ti that one of my friends loaned me. Thanks for help.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

After many years of cycling, I got a wonderful present from my wife: my choice of custom road bike, either the Seven Axiom SG frame or the corresponding (?) Independent Fabrication Ti Crown Jewel. I would appreciate feedback re above choice, as well as suggestions for components - groupset (Campi vs Shimano; which level), fork, etc. Amazingly, price is no object....cheaper than a car and much more healthy!

I am 50 (birthday present), 5'10", 150 lbs, intend to use bike mostly on 30-50 mi rides on roads...occassionally a little longer. In good shape, though my back is not what it used to be. Last few years I rode a Ti mtn bike, and will continue to do so on trails. Want something that is minimal maintaintenance - would like to spend my little available time on riding; high performance, but somewhat forgiving on roads. In auto terms, more like a GT than a pure, raw race car. More like a Porsche than a Viper. I've tried some carbon frames and found them too stiff; really liked the Seven Ti that one of my friends loaned me. Thanks for help.

WOW, Happy birthday !!! Now, thats what I call a super nice BD present ! Hope my future wife is also thinking along the same lines as your wife !

Frame wise, both should be solid choices ..... just as long as they do your custom fit right(ask what methods they take into consideration ..... then compare the two).

Components wise, I'd recommend Campy Chorus w/ Record Hubs + BB + King Headset !!! Take it a step further... get a Record or Chorus Carbon Crankset (since $$ seems to not factor into the equation ). Not so sure about bar/stem ... and seatpost situation .... those boil down what you prefer(esp. the bar/stem).

Fork: there are several Carbon forks to go with.... the new LOOK forks seem nice + light

This sounds like a seriously stoked situation your in. I'm finishing off putting together a 1/2 used , 1/2 new MTB hardtail - high end Ti. frame(will cost me about $2K when done - overall retail is somewhere over $4K) ..... just need to dial in the suspention fork situation.... then I'll be mega-stoked ripping around some trails

 

[RapDaddyo]

FWIW, I have ~6K miles on a bike something like what you are considering. I have a 58cm Merlin Extralight w/ Campy Chorus and a 2nd drivetrain (FSA SLK 34-50 Compact Crank and Campy Record 13-29 cassette), Easton EC90 fork, Campy carbon seatpost, Solido carbon stem and Zipp carbon bars. The frame is light, but comfortable on all road conditions. I've ridden it in one century, two RRs and three TTs. I regularly climb at 300w-350w and occasionally at 500w-700w for short rollers, and I have no complaints about stiffness or power transfer. The Campy drivetrain has been routine maintenance only (clean and oil the chain every 250 miles, check the torques every 1K miles). I like the Campy thumb shifters and I like the wide range of cassette options in the Campy lineup. I've got a PT SL power meter and plan to add a Garmin Edge 305 when they start shipping in January. I would buy the exact same bike and components again today. My only wants are additional ride data related to power management, but that's another subject. Good luck and enjoy your new ride.

 

[boudreaux]

After many years of cycling, I got a wonderful present from my wife: my choice of custom road bike, either the Seven Axiom SG frame or the corresponding (?) Independent Fabrication Ti Crown Jewel. I would appreciate feedback re above choice, as well as suggestions for components - groupset (Campi vs Shimano; which level), fork, etc. Amazingly, price is no object....cheaper than a car and much more healthy!

I am 50 (birthday present), 5'10", 150 lbs, intend to use bike mostly on 30-50 mi rides on roads...occassionally a little longer. In good shape, though my back is not what it used to be. Last few years I rode a Ti mtn bike, and will continue to do so on trails. Want something that is minimal maintaintenance - would like to spend my little available time on riding; high performance, but somewhat forgiving on roads. In auto terms, more like a GT than a pure, raw race car. More like a Porsche than a Viper. I've tried some carbon frames and found them too stiff; really liked the Seven Ti that one of my friends loaned me. Thanks for help.

Is this some kind of lame troll?? Years of cycling ....Eh? Either outfit will make it like you want. Then take it down to wallymart and have the carpet smoking stooge in the bike dept stick some left over Huffy junk on it.

 

[Kocsis]

Is this some kind of lame troll?? Years of cycling ....Eh? Either outfit will make it like you want. Then take it down to wallymart and have the carpet smoking stooge in the bike dept stick some left over Huffy junk on it.

I thought this community is more polite and generous than the above. No reason to be elitist or rude just because you've been on this forum for a while. Thanks for the feedback from the others.

 

[boudreaux]

I thought this community is more polite and generous than the above. No reason to be elitist or rude just because you've been on this forum for a while. Thanks for the feedback from the others.

It's your aZZ. Do you expect someone else can tell you what it wil like or not. Either Serotta or IF can fine tune the ride to your preference, and provide or recommend a fork. Talk to them. AFWIW, all CF isn't too stiff. Talk to calfee about making one the way you want it. And, stiffness isn't just about Ti vs CF,but the way it's made. There is plenty of Ti that could jar your fillings loose as well as some real wimpy stuff depending on your size and weight...Choose wisely.. As to campy/shimano: Someone dropping these kind of clams ought to know, rather than trolling for lame opinions from the unwashed proletariat.

 

[yamahafx1]

Hey Boudreaux, you from LA?

 

[palewin]

After many years of cycling, I got a wonderful present from my wife: my choice of custom road bike, either the Seven Axiom SG frame or the corresponding (?) Independent Fabrication Ti Crown Jewel. I would appreciate feedback re above choice, as well as suggestions for components - groupset (Campi vs Shimano; which level), fork, etc. Amazingly, price is no object....cheaper than a car and much more healthy!

I am 50 (birthday present), 5'10", 150 lbs, intend to use bike mostly on 30-50 mi rides on roads...occassionally a little longer. In good shape, though my back is not what it used to be. Last few years I rode a Ti mtn bike, and will continue to do so on trails. Want something that is minimal maintaintenance - would like to spend my little available time on riding; high performance, but somewhat forgiving on roads. In auto terms, more like a GT than a pure, raw race car. More like a Porsche than a Viper. I've tried some carbon frames and found them too stiff; really liked the Seven Ti that one of my friends loaned me. Thanks for help.

I'll take a step back from the "Boudreaux debate" and get back to your original question. For background, I have a Spectrum (one of Tom Kellogg's custom ti Merlins, effectively a custom version of RapD's bike), I've raced and trained on it for 3 years now, and have zero complaints. But I would rather get away from the "this is what I have & what I recommend" and go back to the point of custom bikes: the fit and the specific build. Both of these are dependent upon the person who takes your measurements, and how accurately they understand what you're looking for in terms of handling, stability, etc. I personally believe that most of the custom bikes out there are roughly equal in build quality at similar price points, which is why I stay out of the "Merlin is better than Moots (or Independent Fab, or...) argument." Find the best fit person you can get to personally. If you can go to the actual builder, all the better. (I went to Tom Kellogg himself, since he lives about 1.5 hrs from me.) Buy whatever bike that fit person recommends, or if you can get to the builder, his bike. As far as Shimano vs. Campy, again its a personal decision, not a consensus issue. The real difference is the "brifters" - see if you like Campy's thumb shift, or Shimano's entirely brake-lever shift. (I found I could get to the Shimano shift more easily while I was in the drops, for the Campy it was difficult to get up to the thumb shifter, and since I compete, the ability to shift in the drops was my "deciding factor" but that may not be yours, or you may well have larger hands.) There is also a different "feel" to the two companies, you need to try them yourself. Again, if you match the equivalent "grupos" there is virtually no quality difference.

 

[Andrepaul]

It's your aZZ. Do you expect someone else can tell you what it wil like or not. Either Serotta or IF can fine tune the ride to your preference, and provide or recommend a fork. Talk to them. AFWIW, all CF isn't too stiff. Talk to calfee about making one the way you want it. And, stiffness isn't just about Ti vs CF,but the way it's made. There is plenty of Ti that could jar your fillings loose as well as some real wimpy stuff depending on your size and weight...Choose wisely.. As to campy/shimano: Someone dropping these kind of clams ought to know, rather than trolling for lame opinions from the unwashed proletariat.

Damn, Boudreaux's smart!

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'll take a step back from the "Boudreaux debate" and get back to your original question. For background, I have a Spectrum (one of Tom Kellogg's custom ti Merlins, effectively a custom version of RapD's bike), I've raced and trained on it for 3 years now, and have zero complaints. But I would rather get away from the "this is what I have & what I recommend" and go back to the point of custom bikes: the fit and the specific build. Both of these are dependent upon the person who takes your measurements, and how accurately they understand what you're looking for in terms of handling, stability, etc. I personally believe that most of the custom bikes out there are roughly equal in build quality at similar price points, which is why I stay out of the "Merlin is better than Moots (or Independent Fab, or...) argument." Find the best fit person you can get to personally. If you can go to the actual builder, all the better. (I went to Tom Kellogg himself, since he lives about 1.5 hrs from me.) Buy whatever bike that fit person recommends, or if you can get to the builder, his bike. As far as Shimano vs. Campy, again its a personal decision, not a consensus issue. The real difference is the "brifters" - see if you like Campy's thumb shift, or Shimano's entirely brake-lever shift. (I found I could get to the Shimano shift more easily while I was in the drops, for the Campy it was difficult to get up to the thumb shifter, and since I compete, the ability to shift in the drops was my "deciding factor" but that may not be yours, or you may well have larger hands.) There is also a different "feel" to the two companies, you need to try them yourself. Again, if you match the equivalent "grupos" there is virtually no quality difference.

This is an excellent post and I agree with everything palewin said. Of course, take careful note of who built his custom Merlin -- Tom Kellogg is one of the best bike designers and builders on the planet. If money is truly no object, book your flight to PA and go see Tom K. My only added comment is that Shimano's and Campy's drivetrains are not identical and, depending on what you plan to do with your bike, you might find that one or the other is more flexible for your needs. For example, I plan to run a wide range of chainrings and cassettes for everything from double century rides with 18K feet of climbing to totally flat courses in windy conditions where 40mph just keeps you in the bunch. Take a careful look at the chainring and cassette options of both Campy and Shimano. If you make a decision on purely the basis of quality, you may as well flip a coin. But, if you look at the ergonomics of the shifters and the drivetrain combos, you will find real differences.

 

[Insight Driver]

Is this some kind of lame troll?? Years of cycling ....Eh? Either outfit will make it like you want. Then take it down to wallymart and have the carpet smoking stooge in the bike dept stick some left over Huffy junk on it.

What is your problem with you? Have nothing but digs you say to others. What kind of bug do you have up your ass, anyway?

 

[Kocsis]

Thanks palewin and RapDaddyo. So here are some specific issues raised by cycling friends for which feedback would be appreciated. First, that Seven's post-purchase customer relations (and service) is terrible, whereas IF's is great. Second, that Campy gear is more finicky (requires more constant adjustment and maintenance) than comparable Shimano - but that when something goes wrong, you can replace a small component of Campy, whereas for Shimano you need to replace whole unit - at greater expense. I like the ergonomics of Campy gear better - though my mtn bike has Shimano, and it's worked great so far. I suspect you can get used to either one after a few hours. I do agree that fit is more important than anything else - though some of my friends who own custom bikes said that after an elaborate fit process, they ended up having to make just as many small adjustments as for a ready-made bike built by the lbs from the frame up.

 

[boudreaux]

Thanks palewin and RapDaddyo. So here are some specific issues raised by cycling friends for which feedback would be appreciated. First, that Seven's post-purchase customer relations (and service) is terrible, whereas IF's is great. Second, that Campy gear is more finicky (requires more constant adjustment and maintenance) than comparable Shimano - but that when something goes wrong, you can replace a small component of Campy, whereas for Shimano you need to replace whole unit - at greater expense. I like the ergonomics of Campy gear better - though my mtn bike has Shimano, and it's worked great so far. I suspect you can get used to either one after a few hours. I do agree that fit is more important than anything else - though some of my friends who own custom bikes said that after an elaborate fit process, they ended up having to make just as many small adjustments as for a ready-made bike built by the lbs from the frame up.

Finiky Campy is BS,and the only place the replacement issue really matters is the shifters. Campys can be rebuilt,shimano's can't. Some people may need a custom frame,but most don't. Given the correct size frame there is nothing out of order with respect to minor adjustments to either a custom or off the shelf frame. How well the custom fits right off the bat is only as good as the fitter,and some couldn't find their ass with both hands.Many have had custoem frames done that they sold for a loss because the fit ended up being so bad. Custom is no magic cure all pill.

 

[palewin]

Thanks palewin and RapDaddyo. So here are some specific issues raised by cycling friends for which feedback would be appreciated. First, that Seven's post-purchase customer relations (and service) is terrible, whereas IF's is great. Second, that Campy gear is more finicky (requires more constant adjustment and maintenance) than comparable Shimano - but that when something goes wrong, you can replace a small component of Campy, whereas for Shimano you need to replace whole unit - at greater expense. I like the ergonomics of Campy gear better - though my mtn bike has Shimano, and it's worked great so far. I suspect you can get used to either one after a few hours. I do agree that fit is more important than anything else - though some of my friends who own custom bikes said that after an elaborate fit process, they ended up having to make just as many small adjustments as for a ready-made bike built by the lbs from the frame up.

OK, I'll give you my take on your comments. But first I will go back to saying that what guides your decision should be the person doing the fitting. If (and I'm being purely hypothetical) the company with the worst post-purchase relations had the most expert fitter, I'd bite the bullet and go for the most expert fitter; everything else is secondary. Now for your questions:
(1) I guess post-purchase relations are nice (Tom Kellogg happens to be very friendly) but how much post-purchase contact do you have for a frame & fork? Virtually none, unless you break it and need repairs. So I wouldn't weight that factor too highly; its more of a tie-breaker than a primary issue. When I've spoken with Tom since my purchase it has been for his thoughts on components, info I could get just as well from my LBS; its just that Tom is such an expert that I value his thoughts. I haven't spoken to him, except when I see him at races, in two years...
(2) Funny - I've heard that Shimano is more finicky, so lets call them equal. Now for my experience - I've probably put 10,000 miles on my DuraAce 10-speed grupo, nothing has worn out, and the only adjustments I've needed to make are to the derailleur cables as they stretch (maybe every 4,000 miles?). You learn how to use the barrel adjusters and that's it - takes 5-10 minutes to adjust.
(3) The replaceability (if that's a word) of Campy is often mentioned, but between my Ultegra and DA groups I have maybe 30,000 miles and have only replaced chains (always around 3k miles) and brake blocks (whenever they need it). (I've worn out wheels, but that isn't what we're talking about.) So the ability to replace individual parts is a theoretical advantage of the Campy that I've never needed.
Summing up points (2) & (3), if you prefer Campy ergonomics, that's your answer.
(4) Lastly, I suspect the better the initial fit, the fewer changes you need to make. But what I've changed a lot is handlebar position; over the years I've become more able to ride in a more aero position, so relative to Tom's initial settings, I've lowered the bars a lot by flipping the extension and removing the spacers (in incremental steps over time). And remember that the other aspect of a custom bike is having geometry that suits your needs. Again, if you get it right the first time in the interview process, you should just love the ride and handling.
Lots of words, but I hope they help. Good luck and enjoy your birthday present!

 

[RapDaddyo]

Thanks palewin and RapDaddyo. So here are some specific issues raised by cycling friends for which feedback would be appreciated. ... Second, that Campy gear is more finicky (requires more constant adjustment and maintenance) ...

The way I maintain my bike, I wouldn't really know whether the components need constant adjustment. That's because I clean, lube and adjust my drivetrain frequently anyway (about every 1K miles). I'm more concerned with the range of drivetrain options I have, and Campy offers me lots of choices.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

Just a side note, custom fit aside ........ since Merlin sold out to Litespeed, right around 1999-2000 , I've heard there overall build quality has slipped a bit (Rob V. + the boys bailed out of there to start there own gig in Mass. in 1997) . From several people that I've spoken with about Ti. frames(mainly just MTB frames) , Merlin + Litespeeds tend to be about "half way down" on the Ti. frame builder list ...... as the Moots , I.F. , Seven are on the tops of the list. Just something to consider is all ..... and something to put in your pipe to smoke , before you go to lay down $1K + on a Ti. frame

 

[palewin]

Just a side note, custom fit aside ........ since Merlin sold out to Litespeed, right around 1999-2000 , I've heard there overall build quality has slipped a bit ... From several people that I've spoken with about Ti. frames(mainly just MTB frames) , Merlin + Litespeeds tend to be about "half way down" on the Ti. frame builder list ...... as the Moots , I.F. , Seven are on the tops of the list.

Just to keep the picture muddy: when Merlin was bought out (by American something-or-other, the holding company that now owns Merlin, Litespeed, and I think Quintana Roo) and moved to their combined manufacturing operation, Tom Kellogg wasn't sure whether to shift the manufacture of his Ti frames to Seven. He spent some time comparing both operations, and concluded that the Merlin production line in Tennessee was at least as good as it had been in Massachusetts, if not better. So he kept Merlin as his Ti custom builder. I guess different people have their own ideas of how to judge quality. (The skeptics can argue that since Tom designs for Merlin, he had a bias; however Tom documented his decision-making criteria on his website and it appeared to be completely objective.)