Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
- Thread starter TiMan
- Start date
Flyer said:
Your information is incorrect. Triamcinolone most certainly can be and is absorbed through the skin, although that is not the intended use. The same with steroid eye drops as well, all very well known and documented medical facts.
The results were not made public, they were leaked from the private medical dossier and doping controls to the French press and only then did UCI issue a public statement clarifying that the test was not a positive and there were medical sanctions to take the drug, and that the test revealed only trace amounts in any case, and not a positive tests for steroids. Get your facts right.
Yes, Lance declared on his medical form that he was not taking medication because he wasnt, a fact re-iterated by his oncologist midway through that tour in 1999 when folks started to publically doubt Lance, and claim he was on a monster performance drug from his oncologists. The fact that he is on no medication at all separates him from many many other riders in the Tour such as Galdeano, Beloki etc who are asthmatic and take prescription inhalants etc which are banned performance enhancers.
Since steroids such as triamcinolone decrease the immune system response, and in the case of someone recovering from cancer would increase the risk of relapse, does anyone really think that Armstrong would run that risk. Not in a million years folks.
Geez, what about some real dopers like Museeuw? Anyone want to take back his Paris Roubaix which Hincapie would have won when he rode George off his wheel with 40 km to go. I do!!
I think you are confusing testosterone boosting with "corticosteroid treatments" which made for entirely different reasons and benefits.hombredesubaru said:
Barry Bonds used the "cream" which was one of several ways to ingest the male hormone (testosterone). If you expect a urine test, you will also need an injection of hCG so as to keep your T/E ratio 6 to 1 or less.
btw: 2.5 to 1 is normal so you have lots of wiggle room to overdose.
Insofar as "corticosteroids" are concerned, the suppression of adrenal function is needed during sleep. Hence the 10:00pm injections of 10 milligrams. This is because the athlete has already been "topped off" for testosterone, growth hormones, EPO, insulin, glusoce, vitamins, iron, Iterlukins etc...
If the adrenal & pituitary glands actually functioned during the night (which is normal for undoped people) the chemistry will become unbalanced.
Hence, one drug begets yet another.
The corticosteroids can also be used to increase performance during the day by 1) masking pain, 2) anti-inflamatory effects.
Obviously, unlike HGH, insulin, saline feeds, you do not want to use cortcoids daily for long periods. But for a time trial or stage race, there just the ticket.
Oh, and they are INJECTED into the buttocks for best results. Saddle cream is a nice cover story.
Alex Zulle, (2nd to Lance in 1999) used injections, not creams.
During a Grand Tour the medical treatments are done on a "trauma basis". Injections trump creams for drug delivery.
And Museeuw (no actual proof yet--just like Lance) but how about Zulle. He was on the very same podium with Lance--and admitted to corticosteroid injections, and EPO, and HGH, and stimulants.
What about Alex? He is as clean as Lance.
Zulle - didn't he used to ride on the ONCE team that was accused of running a systematic doping programme throughout the 90s - the time that one Johann Bruyneel was riding for them.
Bruyneel, Merckx, Ferrari, Carmichael, Gorski, Armstrong's closest advisors - all with direct links to doping. Yet our boy Armstrong is not only drug free (we'll forget all the EPO - that had a legitimate use for the cancer recovery) but can beat known dopers hands down. Gosh, I'm surprised he doesn't wear a cape and his underpants over his tights.
Bruyneel, Merckx, Ferrari, Carmichael, Gorski, Armstrong's closest advisors - all with direct links to doping. Yet our boy Armstrong is not only drug free (we'll forget all the EPO - that had a legitimate use for the cancer recovery) but can beat known dopers hands down. Gosh, I'm surprised he doesn't wear a cape and his underpants over his tights.
Yeah, and his upstairs tenant and longtime teammate Tyler has funny blood and was teammates with former World Champions Oscar Camenzind & Alex Zulle in 2004. More doping packrats?micron said:
No matter how you slice it, Lance prefers the company of people who actively use drugs.---Including his girlfriend. Yup, that's true too.
And now Lance rides for Team Discovery. Is that a precursor to yet more doping disclosures?
Gotta be careful what we wish for?
So many drugs, so little effective tests. Can you imagine what's going to happen to the sport when nanotechnology catches up with doping?
It's not unrealistic that within the next 50 years there will be "blood stream robots" that have such a large capacity for holding oxygen, people who have the robots in their arteries will be able to hold their breath for up to an hour.
What will then happen to the sport?
It's not unrealistic that within the next 50 years there will be "blood stream robots" that have such a large capacity for holding oxygen, people who have the robots in their arteries will be able to hold their breath for up to an hour.
What will then happen to the sport?
although a problem exists with regards to doping in cycling I think one must also realise that a modicum of progress has been made.
http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20020703/prosports/7689_ARC.shtml
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6399.0.html
Just a few articles.
Average hematocrit has fallen over the past few years- although some of this may be due to hemodilution with saline or other volume expanders these are short lived solutions and more recently the UCI has made efforts to not give the individual enough warning time.
Regarding RSR13, a test has been developed that will detect minute traces 36 hours after usage (developed with the aid of the pharmecuetical company for those Pharm Co/Athletic conspiracy types).
Rapid Commun Mass Spectrom. 2001;15(24):2379-82
This test was advertised to be in place for the past TdF. I haven't verified wether they actualy used it. I will try and do this.
Tests have also been developed to look for hemaglobin substitues and have been utilized. To date no evidence of usage.
Also the use of profiling- following an athletes blood values over time is helpful.
I am not naive, a significant number of pro cyclists use dopping products however progress is being made. More money is needed and Athletes themselves could do a lot. I think with public sentiment finnaly changing and sponsors being more concerned and finnaly the UCI and TdF admitting there is a problem has helped a lot.
http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20020703/prosports/7689_ARC.shtml
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6399.0.html
Just a few articles.
Average hematocrit has fallen over the past few years- although some of this may be due to hemodilution with saline or other volume expanders these are short lived solutions and more recently the UCI has made efforts to not give the individual enough warning time.
Regarding RSR13, a test has been developed that will detect minute traces 36 hours after usage (developed with the aid of the pharmecuetical company for those Pharm Co/Athletic conspiracy types).
Rapid Commun Mass Spectrom. 2001;15(24):2379-82
This test was advertised to be in place for the past TdF. I haven't verified wether they actualy used it. I will try and do this.
Tests have also been developed to look for hemaglobin substitues and have been utilized. To date no evidence of usage.
Some of these compounds may be of limited usage as repeated and even first time usage can be associated with significant side effects- Gastrointestinal pain (see Manzano)- possible anaphylaxis with subsequent usage. If these compounds are so readily available and effective, why are athletes going to the trouble of using and risking homologous blood transfusions?
Also the use of profiling- following an athletes blood values over time is helpful.
I am not naive, a significant number of pro cyclists use dopping products however progress is being made. More money is needed and Athletes themselves could do a lot. I think with public sentiment finnaly changing and sponsors being more concerned and finnaly the UCI and TdF admitting there is a problem has helped a lot.
With over 200 billion dollars in annual sales in the USA alone, there is no way that a "non-profit funded" testing staff will get the lab time to retest every new protein booster coming out of bio-tech land. Not even close.Perro Loco said:
Amgen is cooking up new EPO, so too is every one else. Roche has CERA in the works, faster-acting, longer lasting EPO. Undetectable.
I wish I could agree with you, but we are actually losing ground, not gaining.
The doping nay sayers are just working the emotional angles re: pure sport.
Francesco Moser summed it up best when he said: "Modern sport is a myth. We have Gladiator sport today."
Sad, but true.
The new forms of erythropoietin or the small molecules that bind the Epo receptor ( such as cera- which appears to have a prolonged half life) all act in the same way by boosting red blood cell production. Their value are limited by the 50% rule and also the measurement of reticulocytes and hemaglobin that has been recently utilized.Flyer said:
They will be used by cyclists no doubt.
LA is the most influential cyclist in the world, by far. His attitude to drugs is the old-school omerta of the pro peloton, and his treatment of whistleblowers such as Bassons has been disgraceful. This awful false note in his otherwise perfectly orchestrated PR machine is to me a strong indicator that all is not what it seems.
Sorry guys I am coming in cold and not going to read 11 pages of stuff. I am an Aussie and don't really care much for Lance and his abilities except to say I have recently read his book and I for one is in no doubt he is clean and true to sport. His abilities come from working extremely hard, focus on life and a rider that trains by climbing the mountains when no other cyclists would be out on the road.
Be mindful that only minutes seperate the men at the top of the mountain so close they are. Through this extra ordinary effort Lance has put in has made him get ahead by those couple of minutes.
cheers
Dave
Be mindful that only minutes seperate the men at the top of the mountain so close they are. Through this extra ordinary effort Lance has put in has made him get ahead by those couple of minutes.
cheers
Dave
First post from me:
I suspect many of you claim more "for certain" knowledge and know-how of such things that you really have.
I, for one, can easily believe in natural physiological condition improvements from the age of, say, 21, to upper 20s or low 30s.
I also can easily believe in dramatic results coming from different training -- and not even necessarily more rigorous, although combine rigorous with other criteria and it could be an effective combination.
I can believe in the dramatic power of one frame of mind and mental outlook versus another.
I think the experience gained, even non-cycling experience, over some years is an intangible that can pay off in extreme competition. Even incremental advantages can be magnified many times when all the competitors are "on the edge."
Add tweaking of team support and tweaking the "peakage" for the TDF -- bring it all together and I am not the least bit shocked that someone, optimizing as many of these factors, and others that haven't occurred to me, could win the TDF by a minute or several minutes, the margins of recent years.
I have seen this in other extreme competitions, some competitors are just beyond the normal envelope in their capabilities, for reasons not apparent to others, and definitely having nothing to do with drugs or other cheating. And no doubt it's a mystery to people not in their unique vantage point. Any endeavor can be undertaken with some sort of "genius" that defies adequate description or quantification.
I know skepticism is fashionable and "faith" is easily mocked; let's say I'm skeptical of the skeptics in this instance. Until I see compelling reason to believe otherwise, and I have yet to see it in the discussion here, I will continue to see Lance and his accomplishments at face value.
-- RB
I suspect many of you claim more "for certain" knowledge and know-how of such things that you really have.
I, for one, can easily believe in natural physiological condition improvements from the age of, say, 21, to upper 20s or low 30s.
I also can easily believe in dramatic results coming from different training -- and not even necessarily more rigorous, although combine rigorous with other criteria and it could be an effective combination.
I can believe in the dramatic power of one frame of mind and mental outlook versus another.
I think the experience gained, even non-cycling experience, over some years is an intangible that can pay off in extreme competition. Even incremental advantages can be magnified many times when all the competitors are "on the edge."
Add tweaking of team support and tweaking the "peakage" for the TDF -- bring it all together and I am not the least bit shocked that someone, optimizing as many of these factors, and others that haven't occurred to me, could win the TDF by a minute or several minutes, the margins of recent years.
I have seen this in other extreme competitions, some competitors are just beyond the normal envelope in their capabilities, for reasons not apparent to others, and definitely having nothing to do with drugs or other cheating. And no doubt it's a mystery to people not in their unique vantage point. Any endeavor can be undertaken with some sort of "genius" that defies adequate description or quantification.
I know skepticism is fashionable and "faith" is easily mocked; let's say I'm skeptical of the skeptics in this instance. Until I see compelling reason to believe otherwise, and I have yet to see it in the discussion here, I will continue to see Lance and his accomplishments at face value.
-- RB
For most of the 6 TDF's, one rider has been only a couple of minutes behind Lance. 80 hours of riding, and only a couple of minutes behind.
It's fascinating, and perhaps a bit telling, that the Lance naysayers have not also directed their arguments against Jan Ullrich as well. Haven't dug up dubious statements bereft of hard evidence from people with axes to grind. By all rights, Jan is physically the equal of Lance (and probably a bit stronger), as Lance's victories over Jan are usually attributed to smarter riding or better teamwork. So if Lance must be doping, the same vacuous argument would have it that Jan is doping as well. Probably Basso, too. And Kloden. And Mayo. What the hey - Indurain was probably juiced to the gills, right? After all, it took a juicer to unseat him, if the rather thin arguments regarding performance improvment are to be given any credence.
Of course, it could also be that a Texas redneck has outplanned, outorganized, outperformed, and just plain outsmarted the EU's best... so much so that he has singlehandedly redefined professional cycling... naah, it must be doping. The alternative is just too humiliating to even consider.
It's fascinating, and perhaps a bit telling, that the Lance naysayers have not also directed their arguments against Jan Ullrich as well. Haven't dug up dubious statements bereft of hard evidence from people with axes to grind. By all rights, Jan is physically the equal of Lance (and probably a bit stronger), as Lance's victories over Jan are usually attributed to smarter riding or better teamwork. So if Lance must be doping, the same vacuous argument would have it that Jan is doping as well. Probably Basso, too. And Kloden. And Mayo. What the hey - Indurain was probably juiced to the gills, right? After all, it took a juicer to unseat him, if the rather thin arguments regarding performance improvment are to be given any credence.
Of course, it could also be that a Texas redneck has outplanned, outorganized, outperformed, and just plain outsmarted the EU's best... so much so that he has singlehandedly redefined professional cycling... naah, it must be doping. The alternative is just too humiliating to even consider.
Hey Johnny O. You don't think Magoo wasn't doped to the gills?JohnO said:
He could lap you on crystal meth--then fall down.
Who said the entire TDF peleton was NOT doping?
Not I.
The focus is on Mr. Big Mouth, Chairman of the Board, King of denial, Lance Armstrong and his PR and (Weisel) legal teams.
If you want to start up a Jan Ulrich doping post--go ahead. Lots of doping proof on Jan as well.
The evidence is overwhelming--for all sports, and especially cycling. If you do not believe the medical nature of things--not much can be done--expect to avoid reading the daily papers.
Death, illness, embarrassment will continue unabated--and so will these posts!
Lance's lawyers successfully sued to stop doping tests, and that's how he got away with it? I'm shocked this never made the news. Wow, they must be well paid. Did they sue to hide the 'overwhelming evidence', all of which seems to come secondhand, via people who have an axe to grind against a certain team or individual? And always conveniently free of hard evidence? One phone call to the newsies would be all it takes, to witness a team member dumping empty EPO vials. One call to WADA by a disgruntled ex team member could catch them doping. But that call has never been made. Not against Postal, T-Mobile, not any of the top teams that you assert are doped out the wazoo. A muckraker like David Walsh digs through Lance's trash for five years, and all he can find is one disgruntled girl who thinks she might have seen something? Oh, there's the absurd tale about makeup to hide needle marks. Say, ladies - what happens when sweat hits makeup? The makeup lasts about two seconds.
Okay, Lance is an abrasive individual - you would be too if every clown in the world was pawing at you or shouting doping every time you won. In six years, he's bound to have made a lot of people mad with his aloof nature, seems to have made you mad from a distance. Yet no one has come forth with a shred of evidence, and quite a few people besides Emma O'Reilly have been fired from Postal. Why didn't Emma hang onto one of those EPO syringes she allegedly threw away? Even Monica kept her, um, stained dress...
Consider also - Lance starts training in November, while dopers like Millar are still chilling out. He's walking the course while Virenque sips wine. No wonder they have to juice up, they don't train nearly as hard. All the benefits of modern science, and they can't even catch one Texas good ol' boy on a bicycle...
I'm just having a hard time believing what appears to be a classic New York City Conspiracy Theory. Incredible ideas, until you start looking for verifiable facts to back them up.
Okay, Lance is an abrasive individual - you would be too if every clown in the world was pawing at you or shouting doping every time you won. In six years, he's bound to have made a lot of people mad with his aloof nature, seems to have made you mad from a distance. Yet no one has come forth with a shred of evidence, and quite a few people besides Emma O'Reilly have been fired from Postal. Why didn't Emma hang onto one of those EPO syringes she allegedly threw away? Even Monica kept her, um, stained dress...
Consider also - Lance starts training in November, while dopers like Millar are still chilling out. He's walking the course while Virenque sips wine. No wonder they have to juice up, they don't train nearly as hard. All the benefits of modern science, and they can't even catch one Texas good ol' boy on a bicycle...
I'm just having a hard time believing what appears to be a classic New York City Conspiracy Theory. Incredible ideas, until you start looking for verifiable facts to back them up.
