Bad news I think

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In message <[email protected]>, albert fish
<albert-fish@[thisbit].invalid> writes
>of course, but only on things like the segway or electric human powered forms of personal
>transport. except for the emergency services, in emergencies.

What's an electric human? A member of the merger of ELO and Human League?
--
Michael MacClancy
 
"Keith Wootten" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, albert fish
> <albert-fish@[thisbit].invalid> writes
>
> <snip>
>
> >I think tarmacing the dead branch lines is an excellent Idea. not so sure about running existing
> >coaches on them, perhaps a superflat road surface and specially designed low slung hop on hop off
> >open bottomed double decker style thingy ?
> >
> >electric, of course.
>
> If they're tarmaced, then of course you'd allow the emergency services to use them. And VIPs,
> obviously. Councillors, of course. Doctors. Posties. Bin men.

of course, but only on things like the segway or electric human powered forms of personal transport.
except for the emergency services, in emergencies.

> Oh bugger - another road.

I prefer Personal Transportation Network


Albert
 
> AIUI trains are subsidised in most Western countries, which kind of implies that they are not that
> profitable.

No. It merely implies that the overall economic benefit of an efficient rail network (largely due to
increased mobility of the workforce) is greater than the cost of subsidising it.

Why this shouldn't also be the case for the UK I don't know. Perhaps the old age of the lines makes
the cost so high that it's not worth maintaining them in their entirety, which would seem to be
suggested by the plans to scrap so many smaller lines. In some countries however, instead of just
scrapping them, they have been auctioned to private companies to own completely (tracks, stations,
the lot)*. Those that didn't attract bids were then scrapped. I would suggest that this is a fairly
optimal strategy if it has already been determined that on the whole these lines do not contribute
significantly to the economy - small companies are basically asked to evaluate each individual
stretch on its financial merits - a sort of double-checking of the governments calculations and
wherever a mistake is thought to have been made the line will be purchased and continue to run.

Mads

* of course this requires the creation of new laws on running a private railway if they do not
already exist
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

.........
> In any case the biggest problem over here now is not the British workperson but the number of
> tiers of profit-taking and blame-shifting. If one had set out specifically to design a system that
> would end up in paralysis, excessive cost and mass fingerpointing, the privatised rail network is
> pretty much what it would look like.
>
........

Yes, and this is also symptomatic of the capitalist thinking that pervades every aspect of society -
every cost centre must be profitable or close it. Privitisation leads to cherry picking and prevents
cross-subisidisation of poorer, less used routes by the richer ones. The fact that less used routes
are less used doesn't necessarily mean they are less important to the users. There's no concept of
collective welfare and common interest any more.

Rich
 
"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, albert fish
> <albert-fish@[thisbit].invalid> writes
> >of course, but only on things like the segway or electric human powered forms of personal
> >transport. except for the emergency services, in emergencies.
>
> What's an electric human?

We all are, I suppose / I missed out an oblique

> A member of the merger of ELO and Human League?

now, there's no need to go planting images like that in peoples minds :)


Albert
 
"wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> LINES LIKELY TO FACE THE AXE
...
> Settle to Carlisle

Interesting - they tried to close it sometime in the 80s/90s, backed by some very spurious numbers.
Fortunately they didn't. Evidence that it was fortunate can be provided by seeing all the trains
that normally go down the WCML coming past our house when they're doing works.

cheers, clive
 
Tony Raven wrote:

>Its ironic that although the original Beeching report was under the Macmillan/Douglas-Home
>Conservative government, the vast majority of the implemenation was under the Wilson Labour
>government. Now once again a Labour government would seem to be finishing the job despite all their
>protestations to the contrary when they were elected.

If it leaves us with a lean efficient cheap railway service, it may not be such a bad thing. Britain
has 23,000 miles of rail track, France has 19,500 spread over a far larger area.
--
remove remove to reply
 
albert fish wrote:

> "Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
> > In message <[email protected]>, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> > <[email protected]> writes
> > >Passenger rail transport is not profitable in most countries.
> >
> > Why is this? There's something about rail transport that just makes it appear so efficient.
>
> all of the above works everywhere alse in the world unless you chuck into the mix Ingredient X
> 'the british workman'
>
> that's when it all goes pearshaped.

I think you meant management.

John B
 
In news:[email protected], Just zis Guy, you know?
<[email protected]> typed:
>
> AIUI trains are subsidised in most Western countries, which kind of implies that they are not that
> profitable. I was under the impresion that the Japanese were about the only profitable ones, but
> that was a while back.
>

Still are AFAIK. The only one that wasn't was the old state JNR but since it was privatised into 7
JRs they have become profitable and lowered fares. They have everything except the rush hour
crowding sorted. Drivers run their trains by stopwatch, where I used to commute from there was a
train every 5 minutes and an express every 15 minutes. Stopping and express trains could interleave
because the timing was accurate. So you could catch an express to the nearest express stop to
destination, wait five minutes and guarantee a stopper to take you the final stops. Oh and the
intercity express services (shinkansen) run on dedicated lines, but again every few minutes, so they
don't have to mix with the slow trains. With that service there was no incentive to travel any other
way. The other interesting feature is the fare is the fare, agreed by Government on a cost plus
basis, with no complex discount structure around time of journey and booking notice like the UK.

James will probably chip in now to say its all gone to pot with their economy ;-)

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"All truth goes through three steps: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed.
Finally, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer
 
On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 17:49:43 +0200, "Mads Hilberg" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> AIUI trains are subsidised in most Western countries, which kind of implies that they are not
>> that profitable.

>No. It merely implies that the overall economic benefit of an efficient rail network (largely due
>to increased mobility of the workforce) is greater than the cost of subsidising it.

Hum. If the revenues exceeded the costs, subsidy would be unnnecessary. Not that I have any problem
with subsidies for rail, we subsidised the building of the road network out of general taxation
after all.

>Why this shouldn't also be the case for the UK I don't know. Perhaps the old age of the lines makes
>the cost so high that it's not worth maintaining them in their entirety, which would seem to be
>suggested by the plans to scrap so many smaller lines.

AIUI that's primarily due to the influence of Lord Cherwell in the 1950s and his infamous assertion
that the railways were obsolete and soon to be replaced by personal helicopters. Half a century of
neglect can be fairly expensive to repair, but I believethat railway doesn't cost as much as road
either to build or to maintain.

>In some countries however, instead of just scrapping them, they have been auctioned to private
>companies to own completely (tracks, stations, the lot)*.

Good idea - unlikely to be allowed here as it might allow someone to prove the Government of the day
wrong, and as any fule kno the Government of the day has the monopoly on wisdom and good ideas.

>I would suggest that this is a fairly optimal strategy if it has already been determined that on
>the whole these lines do not contribute significantly to the economy

That was Beeching's thesis for closing branch lines. And then they suddenly noticed that there were
no branch lines to feed the main lines...

Mind you, the post-Beeching cuts were done in a way which made it pretty clear that there was an
absolute determination not to allow any future Government to reverse them (sound familiar?). Bridges
were demolished, for example, and strategic parcels of land sold off, cutting lines in half. Still,
we have enough continuous trackbeds to make some quite pleasant rail trails I suppose.

I have noticed that some preserved lines have cycle tracks alongside. I can't help thinking that a
fenced-off graded path next to most branch lines would add to their utility. Thinking in particular
of the old Abbey Flyer in St Albans, I used to walk along the trackside (trespassing on the
permanent way) because it was a pleasingly direct route home from school. The bridges were a bit
dodgy though.

Guy
===
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On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 16:59:54 +0100, Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote:

>I infer that you mean that the tiers (in total) are taking out too much profit. So the rail system
>is, indeed, profitable?

No, the profit taking is supported by the subsidies. Previously BR operated track, rolling stock,
locomotives. Now the train operators pay Railtrack for track access charges, lease rolling stock
from rolling stock companies, railtrack pay contractors to maintain the track - and the directors
and shareholders of each of these firms take their cut. Amazingly many of them were part of the
decision making process which set the whole gravy train in motion.

And much of the superficial profit thus far has come from selling infrastructure; for a party of
economic competence the Tories had something of an obsession with selling capital assets and
treating the income as revenue.

What the railways have needed for a very long time is someone in charge who actually gives a toss
about them, rather than treating the rail network as a poisoned chalice to be survived in order to
qualify for advancement to a less politically dangerous job. I think Bob Kiley might be the man to
do this for the Tube, I'll be interested to see.

Guy
===
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> >No. It merely implies that the overall economic benefit of an efficient
rail
> >network (largely due to increased mobility of the workforce) is greater
than
> >the cost of subsidising it.
>
> Hum. If the revenues exceeded the costs, subsidy would be unnnecessary. Not that I have any
> problem with subsidies for rail, we subsidised the building of the road network out of general
> taxation after all.

If the increased GDP/wealth effect/some_other_metric caused by better transport leading to people
being more willing to take a job far from where they live and other second or third tier benefits*
be greater than the cost of the subsidy, then it is worthwhile. The problem is that it's fairly
hard to quantify, although it is possible and many countries indeed conclude that it is worth
subsidising the railways. But of course as I mentioned it may be possible that the costs in the UK
are so high that in the short term it is not worth it (and since governments are only elected for
the short term...)

Mads

*) extremely primitive explanation of course. Factor mobility of labour is the key phrase should
anyone wish to look up the theories relating to it. Actually not quite as boring as it may sound!
 
On 08 Jun 2003 11:06:16 GMT, [email protected] (wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter) wrote:

>Far be it from me to question the intelligence of a government minister but with our roads nearing
>gridlock, won't the above just mean more car journeys and we reach gridlock even quicker???
>Shouldn't he be supporting and encouraging the move away from overdependence on the car???

Yes, and of course they will do this unless you tell them otherwise.

www.faxyourmp.com might be useful here
 
[email protected] (wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> From the Sunday Mirror at
> <http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/page.cfm?objectid=13044392&method=full
> &siteid=106694&headline=BEECHING%20II>
>
> "BEECHING II Jun 8 2003

>
>
> ALASTAIR Darling has ordered a "summer summit" to pave the way for the biggest reductions in rail
> services since the infamous Beeching cuts of the 1960s.

It could be good news. When a lot of our local rail routes were withdrawn in the 1960s they
reopened as cycle tracks - one of which I ride to work every day. I can also bike to the coast on
an old now-tarmaced rail line. Simon
 
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 08 Jun 2003 11:06:16 GMT, [email protected] (wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter) wrote:
>
> >Far be it from me to question the intelligence of a government minister
but
> >with our roads nearing gridlock, won't the above just mean more car
journeys
> >and we reach gridlock even quicker??? Shouldn't he be supporting and encouraging the move away
> >from overdependence on the car???
>
> Yes, and of course they will do this unless you tell them otherwise.
>
> www.faxyourmp.com might be useful here
>

I think you overrate TPTB if you think they'll listen - it is a no-brainer, after all.
 
On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:42:45 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>it is a no-brainer, after all.

Leaving many MPs perfectly qualified...

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
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"David Gillbe" <david.NO^&[email protected]> wrote: ( At one glorious stage in our
civilisation, passenger rail transport was the ) fastest growing, and most profitable (IRC) industry
in the world. Then a ( certain gent called Henry Ford turned up.

It is at least arguable that no significantly sized railway company ever made a long-term profit:
they were at one time able to attract investment faster than they could spend it, and even pay
dividends, but then IT companies seemed to be a good financial bet a couple of years ago.

Of course, no road transport system is ever viable in isolation either.
 
On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:42:45 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I think you overrate TPTB if you think they'll listen - it is a no-brainer, after all.

But they definitely _won't_ hear unless you say something to them.

I find "I'm voting for the party that removes David Blunkett and his ID card schemes" gets some
sheepish comments from my MP, if nothign else.
 
Eatmorepies <[email protected]> wrote:
:> Heart of Wales line between Swansea and Shrewsbury

: This line passes within 50 yards of my house and a station is 5 minutes walk away. But the thing
: is useless to me. Hardly any trains and at silly times.

Not for me. I use that line to see my parents. York -> LLandeilo. Not a bad journey. I agree that it
isn't any use for local day trips, but this is where these things get complex.

That line may be slow, but if it's wasn't there I'd need to do the last part of the journey by car.
So, what will I do? Use the "efficient" new lines for most of the journey? No. Of course not. I'll
just drive the whole way (have to buy a car as well natch).

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful -
Lord Lester
 
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