BBC1 Breakfast



On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:29:08 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
naked_draughtsman <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>The hospital had a noticeable number of posters around the place
>though saying how important it was to always wear a helmet (presumably
>when riding a bike as it the picture looked like a bike helmet!)

You should have asked them why one should always wear a helmet in
the hospital.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
Mark <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:34:54 -0800 (PST), naked_draughtsman
> <[email protected]> wrote:

> >Bus overtook quite close then moved back in before passing me. I
> >moved in while banging on the back hoping the driver would hear but he
> >didn't and kept going. Not sure exactly how, probably a combination
> >of braking, steering and a 'shove', but ended up going over the
> >handlebars.
> >
> >I'm still waiting to hear back from the police, as the driver didn't
> >stop.
>
> Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
> prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.

Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
>>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
>
> Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?

If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis
 
Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
> >>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
> >
> > Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?
>
> If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
> reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.

I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not convinced he could
successfully be prosecuted for 'failing to stop after an accident'.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
On Jan 26, 11:40 pm, [email protected] (Ekul
Namsob) wrote:
> Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > > Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
> > >>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
>
> > > Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?
>
> > If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
> > reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.
>
> I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not convinced he could
> successfully be prosecuted for 'failing to stop after an accident'.

Did he fail to stop?

Did he have an accident?

Was he paying attention?

...d
 
[email protected] (Ekul Namsob)
> naked_draughtsman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I was hit by a bus on Thursday. Second to being told I'm in plaster
> > for at least 6 weeks the worst part was the courtesy call to my
> > parents. They wanted to know why I wasn't riding in the 0.5m wide
> > cycle lane running in the 'door zone' next to a parking bay.
> > They then suggested that I ride on the pavement in the future.....
>
> Get well soon. I'm a little confused. Did your parents suggest you ride
> on the pavement or hospital staff?

He wrote that it was the pavement. Riding hospital staff would probably
get one in trouble these days.
--
MJ Ray http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html tel:+44-844-4437-237 -
Webmaster-developer, statistician, sysadmin, online shop builder,
consumer and workers co-operative member http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ -
Writing on koha, debian, sat TV, Kewstoke http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
 
David Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 11:40 pm, [email protected] (Ekul
> Namsob) wrote:
> > Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > > > Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
> > > >>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
> >
> > > > Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?
> >
> > > If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
> > > reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.
> >
> > I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not convinced he could
> > successfully be prosecuted for 'failing to stop after an accident'.
>
> Did he fail to stop?
>
> Did he have an accident?
>
> Was he paying attention?

Is the law as simplistic as you think?

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:40:38 GMT,
[email protected] (Ekul Namsob) wrote:

>Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
>> > Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
>> >>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
>> >
>> > Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?
>>
>> If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
>> reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.
>
>I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not convinced he could
>successfully be prosecuted for 'failing to stop after an accident'.

Why not? There was an accident (or rather a collision) and he did not
stop.

M.
 
Mark <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:40:38 GMT,
> [email protected] (Ekul Namsob) wrote:
>
> >Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 26/01/2008 16:13, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> >> > Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>Failing to stop after an accident is an offense. The driver should be
> >> >>prosecuted and lose his job IMHO.
> >> >
> >> > Do you know that the driver was aware of the accident?
> >>
> >> If he moved in on a cyclist without being aware of it, all the more
> >> reason that he shouldn't be driving, let alone in a professional capacity.
> >
> >I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not convinced he could
> >successfully be prosecuted for 'failing to stop after an accident'.
>
> Why not? There was an accident (or rather a collision) and he did not
> stop.

He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
unaware of the accident. My car was once hit by an HGV whose driver had
no idea that he had removed my wing mirror. My first response was not to
contact the police, it was to contact the driver's employer. Everything
was sorted out swiftly and without fuss.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
> unaware of the accident.

Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis
 
Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
> > unaware of the accident.
>
> Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.

Having an accident is not an offence. I would suggest, however, that as
neither of us are lawyers, we agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
On 29/01/2008 23:03, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
>>
>>>He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
>>>unaware of the accident.
>>
>>Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.
>
> Having an accident is not an offence. I would suggest, however, that as
> neither of us are lawyers, we agree to disagree.

Failing to stop at the scene of an accident, OTOH, is.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis
 
Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 29/01/2008 23:03, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> >>
> >>>He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
> >>>unaware of the accident.
> >>
> >>Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.
> >
> > Having an accident is not an offence. I would suggest, however, that as
> > neither of us are lawyers, we agree to disagree.
>
> Failing to stop at the scene of an accident, OTOH, is.

You know, this could go round in circles.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
Danny Colyer wrote:

> Ekul Namsob wrote:

>> He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
>> unaware of the accident.

> Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.

Only for "absolute" offences, of which "failing to stop" is not one
(easier to posit for a bus than for, say, a bike). So EN is right.

Do you think a bus-driver is obliged to frequently stop and check in
case the very back of the bus has collided with anything?
 
Danny Colyer wrote:
> On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
>> He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
>> unaware of the accident.
>
> Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.
>


It is for possession of drugs, or at least it was 30 years ago when I
was on a jury last.
 
On Jan 29, 11:03 pm, [email protected] (Ekul
Namsob) wrote:
> Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > > He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
> > > unaware of the accident.
>
> > Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.
>
> Having an accident is not an offence. I would suggest, however, that as
> neither of us are lawyers, we agree to disagree.

it certainly isn'y listed as a statutory defence in the RTA 1988
section 170 (http://www.bailii.org/uk/legis/num_act/1988/
ukpga_19880052_en_1.html#pt7-pb3-l1g170)

I can't see any evidence of case law establishing such a defence but
it might exist

best wishes
james
 
Quoting Danny Colyer <[email protected]>:
>On 29/01/2008 16:10, Ekul Namsob wrote:
>>He might well reasonably be able to offer the defence that he was
>>unaware of the accident.
>Being unaware of having committed an offence is not a defence.

But sometimes the definition of an offence excludes being unaware. You
cannot commit theft without "the intention to permanently deprive", for
example.

Being ignorant that something _is_ an offence is not a defence. Being
ignorant that you are doing the something often is, since many offences
require intent.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Gorgonzoladay, January - a weekend.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Jan 29, 11:03 pm, [email protected] (Ekul
>Namsob) wrote:
>> Having an accident is not an offence. I would suggest, however, that as
>> neither of us are lawyers, we agree to disagree.
>
>it certainly isn'y listed as a statutory defence in the RTA 1988
>section 170 (http://www.bailii.org/uk/legis/num_act/1988/
>ukpga_19880052_en_1.html#pt7-pb3-l1g170)

You seem to be right, in that it's an absolute offence. That is,
there is no requirement to have any particular intent. (You should
use www.statutelaw.gov.uk for this kind of thing really. That gives
the text with any amendedments.)

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
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