carbon handlebars
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They are in my hand. They have been pulled apart, put back together, photos have been taken, and a 80km ride is scheduled tomorrow to get a good quick impression. I will start a thread very soon with photos and intitial thoughts. They are very shiny.sogood said:Bobby, it's now Christmas and where's your Neuvation R28? Is it in hand yet? Or have you changed your mind? We are still waiting for your opinion.
IMO, when all carbon bars and al bars are priced the same, more cycling afficionados would be using carbon bars.
I agree with your comments on strength and stiffness. However... The important factor you omitted is toughness - i.e., the ability to absorb impacts. Carbon simply does not compare to the toughness of aluminum and will not fare as well in a crash or other high energy impact.alienator said:
Place a carbon bar and an aluminum bar on a concrete surface. Drop a fifty pound weight from waist height onto each bar. The aluminum bar may squish and deform, but the carbon bar will crack like an eggshell.
What compounds this problem with carbon is that smaller impacts may create damage that accumulates with each new impact. This can eventually lead to sudden and catastrophic failure. Granted, this does not happen very often in other carbon parts like carbon forks and seatposts, but it does happen. And it's a failure mode that just doesn't happen with metal parts.
Anyways, barring a dye penetrant test to confirm everything is okay I think it's only wise to toss all carbon parts after a crash or impact (such as bike falling over and landing on the bars). Chances are you'll be okay, but you have no way of knowing... Just my opinion based on the facts as I know them.
John Swanson
Can you imagine in a few years... 'Alloy is real' movement.bobbyOCR said:The bloody 'steel is real' movement.
You actually track the sale of steel track frames, who is buying them, the demographics of the buyers, and where they are located? That's very interesting.bobbyOCR said:The bloody 'steel is real' movement.
Here is a VERY rough generalization. carbon bars can provide bling and comfort aluminium bars tend to provide stiffness and reliability in crashes atm they also provide much better value.
However both carbon fibre bars and aluminium bars can accomodate different shapes for different people and both can be made very light and some very heavy...infact aluminium wins hands down in the $ to weight argument.
There are good aluminium bars and carbon fibre bars some suit different people.
Personally I dont use carbon fibre bars atm...for the main purpose that there is no reason to upgrade my current bars to carbon fibre or aluminium. There are better places on the bike to buy performance mainly in the wheels!!!
If I had unlimited money and a personal mechanic to swap carbon fibre bars around after every crash would I buy them? Depends on which bar suits me and what I need the bars for, If I am looking for superlightweight I might buy schmolke CF If I am looking for stiffness I might buy Deda Newton If I want Aero I might buy Fsa CF Wings...
People treat bike materials as if it were a religion and there is some holy war between aluminium and CF...somehow steel managed to get in here somewhere and I wasn't even aware they make steel bars anymore
To the OP save it for the wheels for #U(K sake!!!
However both carbon fibre bars and aluminium bars can accomodate different shapes for different people and both can be made very light and some very heavy...infact aluminium wins hands down in the $ to weight argument.
There are good aluminium bars and carbon fibre bars some suit different people.
Personally I dont use carbon fibre bars atm...for the main purpose that there is no reason to upgrade my current bars to carbon fibre or aluminium. There are better places on the bike to buy performance mainly in the wheels!!!
If I had unlimited money and a personal mechanic to swap carbon fibre bars around after every crash would I buy them? Depends on which bar suits me and what I need the bars for, If I am looking for superlightweight I might buy schmolke CF If I am looking for stiffness I might buy Deda Newton If I want Aero I might buy Fsa CF Wings...
People treat bike materials as if it were a religion and there is some holy war between aluminium and CF...somehow steel managed to get in here somewhere and I wasn't even aware they make steel bars anymore
To the OP save it for the wheels for #U(K sake!!!
The resonant frequency is not detectable. This is a practical measure, let's discuss reality and not high-school dropout "Star Trek" physics. You can change the resonant frequency of aluminum bars by adding weight (gel pads, buzzkillers, bar-end weights. etc.), ...but you are adding weight.sogood said:Really? I am not aware of any material in the universe that does not resonate nor has a resonant frequency. I am amazed that you've discovered that holy material in a Token carbon handlebar on your bike. You really should talk to your local physicist pronto!
As for your "much stiffer" for sprinting/out-of-saddle argument, I have yet to see many tour or track sprint riders use CF bars. Or maybe you've been comparing to some cheap alloy bars that you got from a two bob shop that's next door to Token in Taichung.
As for being able to hide the Campag double cable, Ok, you have a point. Nice bling! But I suspect you are deficient in your wrapping technique. The pro mechanics can manage it, even I can with my Campag equipped bike. I don't know what's your difficulty?
I see many CF bars at our local velodrome, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Gee, I think I can wrap a bar, but it's impossible to wrap a tubular bar without the cables felt under the tape. The cables can also have a wider radius routed in CF bars, yet are hidden, which helps with cable drag in the housings. With a flat top on CF, this prevents pressure points on hands, especially near hoods. Sorry mate, but this is reality.
CF does not have universal applications, but bars are a good application. Deda is now making hydrformed ally bars that have similar shapes to CF bars, but I don't know the cost. CF bars should really only be considered on high-end bikes, there are better ways to spend $ on bikes.
My experience with forum participants like sogood is that they consistently troll-and-trash what they can't afford, implying that expensive parts are soley for poseurs. This makes them feel better somehow.
Snerk. I have to have a bit of a chuckle. You made a few ad-hominem attacks, but did little to elucidate or educate. Not only that, but you missed a very big point. Yes, you can move the resonance point of an aluminum bar by adding weight and add damping to boot. But... What do you think happens when you ride and hold onto the bars?!The Evil Twin said:
I suspect that under riding conditions, you are way, way far away from the resonance point of either carbon or aluminum handlebars. Ergo sum, in practice there is no difference in the damping of the two materials. Of course this is just an educated guess without any real accelerometer data to back it up. I'm willing to be proven wrong.
John Swanson
www.bikephysics.com
So I see that your trolling style is to jump in, take discussions out of context, add your bit of subjective wisdom and flame participants without reading the full discussion. If I am bad by your standard, then you are far far worse at troll-and-trash!The Evil Twin said:
If you go back to the start of the discussion, my point from the start was one that relates to the cost-benefit of CF bars, which is the exact point you've just made. Thank you for agreeing! Gees!
sogood said:So I see that your trolling style is to jump in, take discussions out of context, add your bit of subjective wisdom and flame participants without reading the full discussion. If I am bad by your standard, then you are far far worse at troll-and-trash!
If you go back to the start of the discussion, my point from the start was one that relates to the cost-benefit of CF bars, which is the exact point you've just made. Thank you for agreeing! Gees!
More with the cost benefit again? You try to apply cost benefit criteria--YOUR criteria--to everyone else. That doesn't work. No amount of spin or double talk about what you think most riders value makes your argument any more valid.
Cost-benefit analysis, in the context of this thread topic, is entirely dependent on a given rider's criteria, NOT criteria that make you feel comfortable. You refuse to believe that other rider's would dare...no, not dare...no....would have the audacity to actually have different values than you.
ScienceIsCool said:
Resonant frequencies have got diddly to do with the argument, especially since, as John points out, those resonant frequencies are likely found well outside any boundaries defined by vibration frequencies normally encountered on the road.
An example of muy bad engineering would be to engineer a device such that said device experiences harmonic frequency excitation in normal use. Ask the old Tacoma Narrows Bridge 'bout that. Doh!!!!!!
As for damping, I'll stand by the claim that the inhomogenaeity of the carbon fiber matrix will tend to make it damp low amplitude, high or very high frequency vibrations. Exactly where in the frequency spectrum "high" and "very high" fall will depend on the bars, the riders physiology (i.e., his/ her sensitivity to said vibes), and other such things.
It is well documented in medical literature that low amplitude, high frequency vibes are big contributors to rider fatigue, rider comfort, and to the exacerbation of certain injuries. It's also been written that these vibes in fact can be the source of several over-use injuries. To get a hint at where in the vibe spectrum these "high" frequencies might fall, consider that ultrasound treatment of certain trauma uses frequencies in the MHz range.
Whether a rider is sensitive or not to these vibes or has a medical history that might point to an issue with vibes characterized as such, is not so easily answered.
Value judgement can be personal, but there is a middle of the road opinion out there and is relevant to this CF vs alloy bar discussion. As all things, there'll be extremes, those who'll pay any price for any potential technical improvements, and those who won't pay anything but the cheapest. I think it's fair to say that the majority of the people cares about how they spend their hard earned cash and demands value for money, or there won't be organizations like Consumer Reports, Choice or product reviews in cycling magazines and web sites. And then there is the small group with a genuine health reasons for needing to pay extra for that special feature. And I'll quote The Evil Twin for his statement again... "CF bars should really only be considered on high-end bikes, there are better ways to spend $ on bikes.".alienator said:
Just to go slightly off topic can anyone comment on the usefulness of Bontragers Bzzzkills. I'm not interested in buying them (especially as i've already rewrapped my bars recently and am not inclined to do it again) but i'm just curious about their effectiveness given the current talk about vibration dampening. I've included the blurb from Bontrager about their vibration damping ability.
'Bzzzkill harmonic dampers are a simple solution to one of cycling’s great challenges. Every manufacturer out there is trying to reduce rider fatigue without paying a weight penalty. On the road, one of the key contributors to fatigue is road vibration.
Bzzzkills are a replacement for the standard bar end plug. Bzzzkills utilize Mathew’s harmonic damper technology to cancel high frequency vibration. Mathews developed this technology for the bow hunting industry. Compound bows generate vibration when shot that can fatigue the user and cause inaccurate shots. The frequency generated in the bow is similar to the frequency generated in a road handlebar when riding over the average paved road.
The dampers work by isolating a weight within an elastomer web. As vibration travels through the handlebar, the elastomer delays oscillation of the weight long enough to get out-of-phase movement. This effectively cancels vibration traveling to the rider’s hands.'
'Bzzzkill harmonic dampers are a simple solution to one of cycling’s great challenges. Every manufacturer out there is trying to reduce rider fatigue without paying a weight penalty. On the road, one of the key contributors to fatigue is road vibration.
Bzzzkills are a replacement for the standard bar end plug. Bzzzkills utilize Mathew’s harmonic damper technology to cancel high frequency vibration. Mathews developed this technology for the bow hunting industry. Compound bows generate vibration when shot that can fatigue the user and cause inaccurate shots. The frequency generated in the bow is similar to the frequency generated in a road handlebar when riding over the average paved road.
The dampers work by isolating a weight within an elastomer web. As vibration travels through the handlebar, the elastomer delays oscillation of the weight long enough to get out-of-phase movement. This effectively cancels vibration traveling to the rider’s hands.'
A large number of these have been appearing on the new Treks being sold from my LBS. The customers who are using them tell me that they do absolutely nothing except add weight. I wouldn't use them. The only way to accurately and precisely test them would be in a lab. Using a human(s) to test these would yield very inconsistent results.
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