Chain Maintenance



[email protected] wrote:
> I rinse my chains clean inside and out before oiling them if they
> haven't just been cleaned by an all day ride on the road in the rain
> and are squeaky clean. The chain that squeaks is not full of grit.
>
> Jobst Brandt
> [email protected]

Are you seriously suggesting "ride all day in the rain" as a new chain
cleaning technique?

Pat
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:50:00 GMT,

> [email protected] wrote:

>> Excuse me for repeating myself but I am not entirely clear on how the
>> test was performed. Whether this was two halves of one chain or two
>> chains is not exactly clear. If it was two halves of one chain
>> (connected with two power-links) how did you identify the two halves?
>> Did you take it apart for maintenance and rinse one half in solvent
>> and dry it before reconnecting it to the part that was brushed off?
>> Was the whole chain subsequently oiled without prejudice or knowing
>> which part of the chain was being oiled? I usually do that on the
>> bicycle by running the cranks backwards while squirting oil on the
>> lower run before wiping off the excess. (since the chain is
>> externally clean, this does not constitute inter-contamination of
>> the two halves.
>>
>> Measuring the chain is pretty simple and I wouldn't expect you to
>> fudge that so that is not my concern. I am more interested in the
>> control of the test. Please give more details.

> The first post in this thread was where Tom described his
> chain test:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2qkzp
>
> Just click on view-complete-thread and go to the top.
>
> Lots of questions about the details of the testing were
> casually raised and conscientously answered, so it's worth
> browsing the whole thread for Tom's replies.

I have two questions about this test:

One, both halves of the chain are running over the same dirty gears. I have no
idea how much this matters, but it might. There's no telling how clean or dirty
the gears were.

Two, there was no standard of cleanliness for the cleaned half. How clean was
it, really? There's a good chance dirt was simply washed into the bushings,
making it worse, not better. As I just mentioned in another post, agitating the
chain in solvent and changing fluid until the fluid remains clear is a good test
of cleanliness. I can't think of any other.

Matt O.
 
Pat Lamb writes:

>> I rinse my chains clean inside and out before oiling them if they
>> haven't just been cleaned by an all day ride on the road in the
>> rain and are squeaky clean. The chain that squeaks is not full of
>> grit.

> Are you seriously suggesting "ride all day in the rain" as a new
> chain cleaning technique?

Are you seriously interpreting riding in the rain as chain cleaning or
don't you ever ride in the rain? When a chain dries out after such an
event it is usually squeaky clean inside and reasonably so outside.

It is in that event that I have no qualms about oiling a chain that
has not been flushed in solvent.

Got it?

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
David Damerell writes:

>>> Knowing that I might (!) be biased in the measuring of the chain I
>>> drafted my wife to confirm my measurements. In the end there was
>>> no doubt for either of us, the "solvent thrashed" half elongated
>>> to the 1/16 mark before the wiped and brushed half.

>> To what do you attribute the increased wear of the one chain over
>> the other? Do you have faith in the statistical nature of how the
>> two chains were exposed to dirt during their use?

> As I understand it he used one chain only, and treated the two
> halves differently at cleaning time; hence they must have been
> exposed to the same dirt and weather conditions.

I see I am not making myself clear.

1. How were the two halves of the chain separated while cleaning?
2. How was the solvent cleaned chain cleaned (method)?
3. How was the chain subsequently lubricated?
4. How were the two halves of the chain identified?

Sorry for the repetition but unambiguous answers are apparently hard
to elicit.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Tom Gibb writes:

>> Excuse me for repeating myself but I am not entirely clear on how
>> the test was performed. Whether this was two halves of one chain
>> or two chains is not exactly clear. If it was two halves of one
>> chain (connected with two power-links) how did you identify the two
>> halves?

> One "half" had one more link than the other so it was easy to
> identify. I had also, before I realized that I was going to have
> slightly different lengths, marked a rivet with a Dremel cut off
> tool. So I did know which was which. But once re-assembled the two
> chain halves were used as one chain on my beater/commuter bike.

>> Did you take it apart for maintenance and rinse one half in solvent
>> and dry it before reconnecting it to the part that was brushed off?

> Yes.

>> Was the whole chain subsequently oiled without prejudice or knowing
>> which part of the chain was being oiled? I usually do that on the
>> bicycle by running the cranks backwards while squirting oil on the
>> lower run before wiping off the excess. (since the chain is
>> externally clean, this does not constitute inter-contamination of
>> the two halves.

> That is how I oiled the chains.

>> Measuring the chain is pretty simple and I wouldn't expect you to
>> fudge that so that is not my concern. I am more interested in the
>> control of the test. Please give more details.

> The measuring was more difficult than I had hoped. I cut a kerf in
> a 2X4 and put a pin at the top of the kerf. The chain hung from the
> pin with a five pound weight on the other end. This was constant
> throughout. The ruler could be placed on the wood with the edge
> resting right on top of the chain as the rivets were flush with the
> surface of the 2X4. It was still difficult to exactly place the "0"
> mark exactly on the upper edge of a rivet, we wound up holding a
> light over each other's shoulders to assist. The ruler is a 15 inch
> steel rule (purchased expressly for this trial), so I had reference
> marks past the 12 inch mark.

> Does that cover what you are interested in?

Yes. But the question remains to what you attribute faster wear on
the "cleaned" chain? Something seems amiss here. Since both parts of
the chain received the same lubrication, what was different between
the two chains that caused more rapid wear?

> Again, to anyone, I would very much like to see others try this.
> One trial is not enough, but it provided something more than
> opinion. I was cleaning all my chains by the solvent method because
> of what seemed to be sound advice (and I've gotten a lot of sound
> advice here that stands up to the test of time) from this newsgroup.

I'll try that as soon as I return from riding the Alps, in July, where
I don't expect to lubricate my chain unless I get lots of rain.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Jobst Brandt wrote:

> Are you seriously interpreting riding in the rain as chain cleaning or
> don't you ever ride in the rain? When a chain dries out after such an
> event it is usually squeaky clean inside and reasonably so outside.
>
> It is in that event that I have no qualms about oiling a chain that
> has not been flushed in solvent.

Hmm. After I ride in the rain, everything ends up filthy. The rims,
the brake pads, the downtube, the drivetrain, me. The chain
especially acts like a crud catcher. Maybe if it started out clean,
it would stay cleaner. But I'm not that fastidious in the rainy
season.

Maybe a full fender with mudguard would help.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
Terry Morse writes:

>> Are you seriously interpreting riding in the rain as chain cleaning
>> or don't you ever ride in the rain? When a chain dries out after
>> such an event it is usually squeaky clean inside and reasonably so
>> outside.

>> It is in that event that I have no qualms about oiling a chain that
>> has not been flushed in solvent.

> Hmm. After I ride in the rain, everything ends up filthy. The rims,
> the brake pads, the downtube, the drivetrain, me. The chain
> especially acts like a crud catcher. Maybe if it started out clean,
> it would stay cleaner. But I'm not that fastidious in the rainy
> season.

> Maybe a full fender with mudguard would help.

I don't doubt that your bicycle gets dirty but the chain (unless you
are riding on dirt) is pretty clean. In fact squeaky clean.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] writes:

And quoted me:
>> Does that cover what you are interested in?


>Yes. But the question remains to what you attribute faster wear on
>the "cleaned" chain? Something seems amiss here. Since both parts of
>the chain received the same lubrication, what was different between
>the two chains that caused more rapid wear?

I'm puzzled too. I really expected the other result. If you want a
hypothesis, it might be that there is lubrication that remains inside the chain
when one doesn't solvent clean the chain and that this, being (hypothetically)
clean provides better lubrication than the chain saw bar oil I use.

Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]>
writes:

>One, both halves of the chain are running over the same dirty gears. I have
>no
>idea how much this matters, but it might. There's no telling how clean or
>dirty
>the gears were.

I didn't spend a lot of time on the gears. I did frequently (about every other
chain cleaning) brush them off with an old tooth brush.
>
>Two, there was no standard of cleanliness for the cleaned half. How clean
>was
>it, really? There's a good chance dirt was simply washed into the bushings,
>making it worse, not better. As I just mentioned in another post, agitating
>the
>chain in solvent and changing fluid until the fluid remains clear is a good
>test
>of cleanliness. I can't think of any other.

I used my recycled solvent for the first few thrashings but once the chains
appeared clean I used new solvent and would repeat with clean solvent until
there was no debris in the bottom of the container. I might add that I shook
them hard. After every solvent cleaning the chain appeared clean and the oil I
wiped off of that section appeared clean while the oil from the brushed off
chain was black.

Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> One thing is clear, my 5-part chains outlast newer 4-part chains more
> than 2:1 but that's what we get for having so many and such low gears.
> The 4-part chain has a higher tensile strength than the more durable
> 5_part chain. Alas, I have only two more of those chains that run
> nicely on my "ultra-six" speed cluster.

[Slight change of subject]

The better chain life sounded good, so I decided to try a 5-part chain
when I saw one for sale. But I have trouble. Maybe with your
experience, you could help with this:

Is there any difference between a 5-part and a 4-part chain that would
make the former skip when the latter does not? Both chains are new
and ran on a new cassette, so the pitches are all the same. The only
difference I can observe is that the pins on the 5-part chain are
slightly wider.

The 5-part chain is KMC HP-20, and was advertised as a "6/7 speed"
chain. I used it on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. It skiped all the
time on the 11-tooth sprocket, but skips under load on 13, 15, and
even the 18-tooth sprocket. When I got a SRAM PC-58 chain, all gears
worked just fine.

It's so confusing because the chains look so similar.

Karl Nelson.
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> One thing is clear, my 5-part chains outlast newer 4-part chains more
> than 2:1 but that's what we get for having so many and such low gears.
> The 4-part chain has a higher tensile strength than the more durable
> 5_part chain. Alas, I have only two more of those chains that run
> nicely on my "ultra-six" speed cluster.

[Slight change of subject]

The better chain life sounded good, so I decided to try a 5-part chain
when I saw one for sale. But I have trouble. Maybe with your
experience, you could help with this:

Is there any difference between a 5-part and a 4-part chain that would
make the former skip when the latter does not? Both chains are new
and ran on a new cassette, so the pitches are all the same. The only
difference I can observe is that the pins on the 5-part chain are
slightly wider.

The 5-part chain is KMC HP-20, and was advertised as a "6/7 speed"
chain. I used it on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. It skiped all the
time on the 11-tooth sprocket, but skips under load on 13, 15, and
even the 18-tooth sprocket. When I got a SRAM PC-58 chain, all gears
worked just fine.

It's so confusing because the chains look so similar.

Karl Nelson.
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> One thing is clear, my 5-part chains outlast newer 4-part chains more
> than 2:1 but that's what we get for having so many and such low gears.
> The 4-part chain has a higher tensile strength than the more durable
> 5_part chain. Alas, I have only two more of those chains that run
> nicely on my "ultra-six" speed cluster.

[Slight change of subject]

The better chain life sounded good, so I decided to try a 5-part chain
when I saw one for sale. But I have trouble. Maybe with your
experience, you could help with this:

Is there any difference between a 5-part and a 4-part chain that would
make the former skip when the latter does not? Both chains are new
and ran on a new cassette, so the pitches are all the same. The only
difference I can observe is that the pins on the 5-part chain are
slightly wider.

The 5-part chain is KMC HP-20, and was advertised as a "6/7 speed"
chain. I used it on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. It skiped all the
time on the 11-tooth sprocket, but skips under load on 13, 15, and
even the 18-tooth sprocket. When I got a SRAM PC-58 chain, all gears
worked just fine.

It's so confusing because the chains look so similar.

Karl Nelson.
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> One thing is clear, my 5-part chains outlast newer 4-part chains more
> than 2:1 but that's what we get for having so many and such low gears.
> The 4-part chain has a higher tensile strength than the more durable
> 5_part chain. Alas, I have only two more of those chains that run
> nicely on my "ultra-six" speed cluster.

[Slight change of subject]

The better chain life sounded good, so I decided to try a 5-part chain
when I saw one for sale. But I have trouble. Maybe with your
experience, you could help with this:

Is there any difference between a 5-part and a 4-part chain that would
make the former skip when the latter does not? Both chains are new
and ran on a new cassette, so the pitches are all the same. The only
difference I can observe is that the pins on the 5-part chain are
slightly wider.

The 5-part chain is KMC HP-20, and was advertised as a "6/7 speed"
chain. I used it on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. It skiped all the
time on the 11-tooth sprocket, but skips under load on 13, 15, and
even the 18-tooth sprocket. When I got a SRAM PC-58 chain, all gears
worked just fine.

It's so confusing because the chains look so similar.

Karl Nelson.
 
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:50:49 GMT, [email protected]
wrote:

>Terry Morse writes:
>
>>> Are you seriously interpreting riding in the rain as chain cleaning
>>> or don't you ever ride in the rain? When a chain dries out after
>>> such an event it is usually squeaky clean inside and reasonably so
>>> outside.
>
>>> It is in that event that I have no qualms about oiling a chain that
>>> has not been flushed in solvent.
>
>> Hmm. After I ride in the rain, everything ends up filthy. The rims,
>> the brake pads, the downtube, the drivetrain, me. The chain
>> especially acts like a crud catcher. Maybe if it started out clean,
>> it would stay cleaner. But I'm not that fastidious in the rainy
>> season.
>
>> Maybe a full fender with mudguard would help.

Don't think so. At least it doesn't help the rims, brake pads, or
drivetrain, particularly the chain, for me.

>I don't doubt that your bicycle gets dirty but the chain (unless you
>are riding on dirt) is pretty clean. In fact squeaky clean.

I dislike a rainy commute precisely because the outside of my chain is
filthy afterwards. I don't think the roads where I live are
particularly dirty, as roads go, and they certainly are paved. I'm
curious how you can ride in the rain and end up with a squeaky clean
chain.

Pat

Email address works as is.
 
[email protected] (st556) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (TBGibb) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> --
> > My best guess for why is that there is lubrication that remains deep within the
> chain when one doesn't "solvent thrash" the chain.
> >
> >--
> > Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
>
> Right-O, solvent stay inna chain and further lube is trashed.
>
> But what the heck, some folks boil their gunky guitar strings too...
>
> ST



After following this thread for some time, I had to ask if anyone has
tried using the dishwasher for cleaning their chain. It seems to me
that as long as my wife doesn't find out, the detergent, spray, hot
water, etc of the dishwasher may be effective. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Rob
 
Rob wrote:

> [email protected] (st556) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...

>> [email protected] (TBGibb) wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>... --

>>> My best guess for why is that there is lubrication that remains
>>> deep within the
>> chain when one doesn't "solvent thrash" the chain.

>> Right-O, solvent stay inna chain and further lube is trashed.
>>
>> But what the heck, some folks boil their gunky guitar strings too...

> After following this thread for some time, I had to ask if anyone has
> tried using the dishwasher for cleaning their chain. It seems to me
> that as long as my wife doesn't find out, the detergent, spray, hot
> water, etc of the dishwasher may be effective. Any ideas?

A dishwasher works well for many things, but I doubt it would remove grit from
inside the chain as well as other methods.

Similar to boiling guitar strings, hot waxing supposedly can boil dirt out of a
chain. Hit the chain with degreaser first, then rinse with water. Put it in
the wax and heat it. As the water boils out of the chain, it takes the dirt
with it. (At least that's the theory.)

Matt O.
 
Rob wrote:
>
> After following this thread for some time, I had to ask if anyone has
> tried using the dishwasher for cleaning their chain. It seems to me
> that as long as my wife doesn't find out, the detergent, spray, hot
> water, etc of the dishwasher may be effective. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob

I tought the same, but never dared to do it! ...maybe I'll give a try
when the rest of the family is away on holidays :)

Francesco
 
Karl Nelson <[email protected]> writes:

>> One thing is clear, my 5-part chains outlast newer 4-part chains
>> more than 2:1 but that's what we get for having so many and such
>> low gears. The 4-part chain has a higher tensile strength than the
>> more durable 5_part chain. Alas, I have only two more of those
>> chains that run nicely on my "ultra-six" speed cluster.

> [Slight change of subject]

> The better chain life sounded good, so I decided to try a 5-part
> chain when I saw one for sale. But I have trouble. Maybe with your
> experience, you could help with this:

> Is there any difference between a 5-part and a 4-part chain that
> would make the former skip when the latter does not? Both chains
> are new and ran on a new cassette, so the pitches are all the same.
> The only difference I can observe is that the pins on the 5-part
> chain are slightly wider.

Chain pin length could have a lot to do with that. You cannot just
put an old (5-part) design on any cluster. I use them with ultra-6
spaced sprockets, something that is ancient history on wreck.bike. I
think the loss of interchangeability and functionality of newer higher
density gear clusters has been discussed here at great length. You
may not be able to go back.

> The 5-part chain is KMC HP-20, and was advertised as a "6/7 speed"
> chain. I used it on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. It skipped all the
> time on the 11-tooth sprocket, but skips under load on 13, 15, and
> even the 18-tooth sprocket. When I got a SRAM PC-58 chain, all
> gears worked just fine.

The SRAM chain has practically no over stand on its pins. I am not
familiar with the cluster to which you refer. I can only suggest
measuring the roller diameter with a precision caliper and to
back-pedal the chain manually to see if interferes with engagement.
That this occurs under load only suggests the sprockets have a slight
bit of wear. I can't tell from here.

> It's so confusing because the chains look so similar.

Look and measure can be slightly different. I use Regina CX-S 5-part
chains with excellent success on SunTour Ultra-6 Pro clusters.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Patrick Lamb <[email protected]> writes:

> I don't doubt that your bicycle gets dirty but the chain (unless you
> are riding on dirt) is pretty clean. In fact squeaky clean.

> I dislike a rainy commute precisely because the outside of my chain
> is filthy afterwards. I don't think the roads where I live are
> particularly dirty, as roads go, and they certainly are paved. I'm
> curious how you can ride in the rain and end up with a squeaky clean
> chain.

I mean that literally not figuratively. The chain will be washed out
and retain no oily solvent so it will be squeaking as soon as it dries
out. There being no oil or grease, brushing the sand off the outside
is trivial because it easily falls off when running a rag over the
back-pedaled chain.

It's much like a shoddy steam cleaning with non sticky residue on the
outside.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
jobst.brandt wrote:

> Yes. But the question remains to what you attribute faster wear on
> the "cleaned" chain? Something seems amiss here. Since both parts of
> the chain received the same lubrication, what was different between
> the two chains that caused more rapid wear?

Possibly the dirt inside the uncleaned chain prevented it from
"stretching" as much when measured, even though it was worn.

Art Harris
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

sma
i'm a bike maintenance n00b, do i have too much lube on my chain?
Replies
12
Views
1K
Cycling Equipment
rule62
rule62
T
Mountain Bike Chain Maintenance
Replies
13
Views
416
Cycling Equipment
Werehatrack
W
goingforspeed
Chain Maintenance
Replies
10
Views
2K
Cycling Equipment
goingforspeed
goingforspeed
angotja
Chain Maintenance
Replies
45
Views
3K
Cycling Equipment
Jobst Brandt
J
Soonercolt
Common Mistakes to Avoid When Using Chain Lube
Replies
4
Views
18
Cycling Equipment
Soonercolt
Soonercolt
Top Bottom Back