Commuting - Road Position

yes, i think everyone who cycles in london has this dilema. I don't like cycling on the outside either, i actually tried this for the 2nd or 3rd time last week and had a very hairy moment, pressed the back brake a bit to hard a slewed to the right lane (oncoming traffic) with a car speeding towards me. Not Nice.

I tend to cycle up the inside, if it gets very tight and the pavement is wide and clear of people then i'll go on the pavement to clear the traffic, not ideal or legal but beats sitting still.

dan

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by JulesF
I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards so 3/4 light changes).

Unless you’re going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can’t stay in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with very little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right into a residential area just in front of me, I’m not confident about going on the outside. But the inside is not much better and I’m sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens their door just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are very difficulte to see until too late.

What do other people do 😕

JulesF said:

What do other people do 😕

It will depend on the exact layout of any particular situation, I don't think there's a single "this
is what you should do" answer. I will variously either undertake, overtake, stay put, get off and
walk or any combination thereof according to my assessment of any given queue.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

If it's a long queue I'd use the outside if possible as less hazards, and it's possible to go faster
than the inside, where you have to creep at walking pace due to the risk of being "doored".

In lighter traffic with only a few cars at the next light I keep centre lane to stop pointless
leapfrogging of other traffic, and time my arrival exactly with green if I know the phases, thus
saving other following motorists fuel as they can keep going at 15-20 mph rather than race to the
lights at 40, stop, then step on the gas for no advantage!

"JulesF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right
into a residential area just in front of me, I’m not confident about going on the outside. But the
inside is not much better

Inside is worse, IMO, in that the number of incidents is likely to be higher. I am always wary when
overtaking in traffic queues where there is a side-turning close by. There isn't much you can do,
though, other than leave as much room as you can between you and the cages, and keep the relative
speed low.

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

JulesF said:

I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards so
3/4 light changes).

Unless you’re going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can’t
stay in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with
very little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right
into a residential area just in front of me, I’m not confident about going on the outside. But the
inside is not much better and I’m sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens their door
just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are very
difficulte to see until too late.

I try to use the outside on single carriageway roads, although it's a bit hairy when someone is so
far out that it puts you over the white line. You must be confident that you can sprint back to the
kerb if it all starts to move.

Going up the inside tends to provoke aggressive actions from drivers, ranging from verbal abuse to
doorings. The Highway Code, IIRC, is rather vague on this issue - it says you should overtake on the
right (except in one way streets or if the vehicle in front is turning right, when you can use the
left) but also advises motorists to look out for cyclists overtaking on the inside!

Most of the time I just stay with the traffic if it's moving - it doesn't slow me down too much -
and I sneak up the inside if lights are the cause of the holdup and everything really is stationary.
This is because the lights on my run are on a dual carriageway with a 50mph limit, and I'm not going
to get caught between the lanes when everything starts off again!

"Adrian Boliston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If it's a long queue I'd use the outside if possible as less hazards,

Yes well twice recently (once before we stopped work for Xmas and once at the beginning of this week
when we started again) I got 'told off' by motorcyclists insisting the outside 'lane' was for them,
not bicycles. I was going to tell them what I thought of that but they were gone, once they'd got
past, before I'd scarcely opened my mouth.

Personally I do as Peter Clinch - get past the queues whichever way I can according to where there's
most/enough room, switching from side to side as necessary, with, of course, an appropriate degree
of caution as to speed, observation and indication of intention. I suspect it was that that annoyed
the motorcyclists although they do the same thing anyway - they wanted the same road space and
weren't sure in advance that I was going to stay in my place in the gutter.

Quoted message said:

and it's possible to go faster than the inside, where you have to creep at walking

pace due

Quoted message said:

to the risk of being "doored".

Weell, the most frequent problem I find on the inside is peds stepping out into the road or suddenly
appearing from between vehicles having crossed from the other side. Dooring is a less likely
occurence unless you're passing on the outside of parked vehicles or it's a taxi...

Quoted message said:

In lighter traffic with only a few cars at the next light I keep centre

lane to

Quoted message said:

stop pointless leapfrogging of other traffic, and time my arrival exactly

with

Quoted message said:

green if I know the phases, thus saving other following motorists fuel as

they can

Quoted message said:

keep going at 15-20 mph rather than race to the lights at 40, stop, then

step on

Quoted message said:

the gas for no advantage!

Agree..

Rich

JulesF said:

What do other people do 😕

I almost always cycle up the outside, but slowly and a reasonable way out from the traffic to give
me notice against someone doing something silly. This means, unless the road is very wide, pausing
when traffic is coming the other way. However as it is coming from a set of lights usually there
will be gaps in the oncoming traffic in which you can make good progress. If you can't then do what
the car drivers have to do and sit and wait in line.

Tony

JulesF wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

What do other people do 😕

Peter Clinch has summed it up exactly. You do what's right for any particular situation. Getting to
know what's right comes with experience. If this is a regular commute, you'll get plenty of
experience. I enjoy my (totally urban) commute imensely. I take a pride in my positioning skill, but
am ready to learn on the occasions when it nearly goes [censored] up. I ask myself, "How could I have
avoided that?" "If I were to meet another idiot like that, how could I have prevented them from
trying that?" etc.

Personally, I ride on the outside where ever posible.

I keep a "weather ear" open for motorbikes, and wave them past when ready. I know that every car is
likely to "manouver-indicate-mirror" (action 2 & 3 optional) to the right at any moment, and am
prepared to deal with it, and I know that every stationary queueing bus and truck conceals a
crossing ped and am ready to deal with that.

Never, ever undertake trucks and buses. Unless you can see for absolute certain that they cannot
move, and will not be able to for some time.

--
Cheerful Peddling John Mallard

Richard Goodman said:

Yes well twice recently (once before we stopped work for Xmas and once at the beginning of this
week when we started again) I got 'told off' by motorcyclists insisting the outside 'lane' was for
them, not bicycles.

But motorbikes just get in the way. I always found filtering much harder on a motorbike than on a
real bike. Then a few weeks ago I got stuck behind a motorcyclist who didn't have room to filter.
There would have been room for me to filter, if the motorbike hadn't been in the way.

But I'm not too worried about being held up by a motorcyclist once in 11 years of cycle commuting,
compared to the many thousands of times I've been held up by cars. Which really was what happened in
this case - I wasn't held up by the biker so much as we were both held up by the cagers.

Anyway, I always pass on the outside where possible, unless I'm passing right-turning traffic or
unless I'm about to turn left. IMHO it's safer, it's also usually quicker because I don't have a
problem with cars positioned too close to the kerb for me to pass on the inside.

What I find very frustrating (and it happens to me most mornings) is when I want to pass the queue
of traffic behind a car waiting to turn right. Because the car at the front of the queue is
turning right, I'll pass on the inside. Unfortunately, more often than not the second car in the
queue will have his tyres almost touching the kerb, trying to squeeze through even though there's
less than half a car's width between the front car and the kerb. The result is that I can't get
through either.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

JulesF said:

What do other people do

Bit of both: over and under taking. There's often more room on the inside on slow crowded streets,
but outside tends to be safer on more open roads if you want to keep the speed up - although exactly
the other way round is true sometimes.

You've just got to be hyper-aware of what everyone else is doing: including from your peripheral
vision. Be sensitive to vehicles getting close or slowing down or doing anything out of the ordinary
*before* they turn. Actually looking at their front wheel can be useful to see if they're turning or
about to when they're moving slowly or stationary.

Always be prepared to turn *with* cars (inside them) in case you ever leave it too late to brake.
This requires keeping speed under control and giving them loads of lateral room. (That's probably
where you went wrong with the taxi). Stop and wait if that's not possible. Often it can be made
safely possible by riding well over onto on the other side of the road - even on narrow urban roads
when visability is good and no pedestrians or oncoming traffic is about. Look behind before veering
out. Another cyclist, motorcyclist or hot hatch driver may be doing the same thing!

~PB

JulesF said:

I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards so
3/4 light changes).

Unless you’re going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can’t
stay in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with
very little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right
into a residential area just in front of me, I’m not confident about going on the outside. But the
inside is not much better and I’m sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens their door
just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are very
difficulte to see until too late.

Tremendously good responses so far.

I'd just add that if the cars can move, they can turn into you - and doors can open at any time,
though it's not too likely. FWIW, I tend to go between the lanes of a 2-lane queue. This means when
the cars are moving I can easily get into whichever lane is moving better, to maximise my speed and
clearance from moving cars in the other lane. When both lanes are solid, I cover the brakes and move
slowly - far slower than motorbikes usually do.

It takes a lot longer than when there's no queue - but I'm still far quicker than the cars. I'll
settle for that.

Colin McKenzie

JulesF said:

I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards so
3/4 light changes).

Unless you’re going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can’t stay
in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with very
little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

As far as the outside is concerned, I'd say just be slightly cautious of getting stranded there in
the middle of the road if you're passing a line of stationary traffic on your left one minute and
then the next it's beginning to move off again, and you can't get back 'in lane'. I kind of don't
like that feeling!

Improvisize, but keep your ear on what the rest of the band is playing as well.

gb

Quoted message said:

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right into
a residential area just in front of me, I’m not confident about going on the outside. But the
inside is not much better and I’m sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens their door
just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are very
difficulte to see until too late.

What do other people do 😕

"JulesF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right
into a residential area just in front of me, I'm not confident about going on the outside. But the
inside is not much better and I'm sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens their door
just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are very
difficulte to see until too late.

What do other people do 😕

Obviously it depends on the situation.

But I generally use the inside, using the assumption that although the likelihood of an accident is
greater the severity is likely to be less.

Also when traveling on the inside it is neccessary to limit your speed to the point where a
collision or dooring won't be too catastrophic.

"Garry Broad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JulesF said:

I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards
so 3/4 light changes).

Unless you're going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can't
stay in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with
very little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

Always overtake on the right. That is where people expect to be overtaken and there is always
more room.

Don't worry too much about crossing the while line (so long as you are not impeding oncoming
traffic) - the important thing is to keep well clear of the vehicles you are overtaking as they are
less likely to have seen you.

If you undertake then you will have much less room and you risk getting doored or left hooked or a
pedestrian stepping into your path. Also there is a bigger blind spot on the left of a vehicle.

Quoted message said:

As far as the outside is concerned, I'd say just be slightly cautious of getting stranded there in
the middle of the road if you're passing a line of stationary traffic on your left one minute and
then the next it's beginning to move off again, and you can't get back 'in lane'. I kind of don't
like that feeling!

Queues don't start moving unexpectedly. The cars a long way in front start to move first and the
movement spreads back along the queue. You can see this happening in plenty of time to anticipate a
move back into the traffic flow. Drivers are also a lot more cooperative about letting you move in
from the right than they are from the left.

Quoted message said:

Improvisize, but keep your ear on what the rest of the band is playing as well.

gb

Quoted message said:

Having been knocked off by a taxi, deciding without looking to skip the queue by turning right
into a residential area just in front of me, I'm not confident about going on the outside.

Drivers turn left with much less care than they take when turning right. In most cases people will
check behind before turning right - after all another car could be overtaking them not just a bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But the inside is not much better and I'm sure its only time before a passenger kindly opens
their door just in front of me - the other issue is pedestrians crossing between cars/lorries are
very difficulte to see until too late.

Squeezing between lorries and the kerb is a VERY bad idea. Trucks have very big blind spots and
will tend to move out to the right before making a left turn to give them a bigger radius. Also if
you are taking a left hand bend the middle of the truck will pass much closer to the kerb than the
front or back.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do other people do 😕

In "]news:[email hidden],
Garry Broad <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

JulesF said:

I commute in reasonably heavy traffic where tailbacks from lights are quite long (800/900 yards
so 3/4 light changes).

Unless you're going to wait, which defeats one of the advantages of being on a bike, you can't
stay in the primary or secondary position. You have a choice of either pushing up the inside with
very little clearance or going on the outside (but still on the left of the white lines).

As far as the outside is concerned, I'd say just be slightly cautious of getting stranded there in
the middle of the road if you're passing a line of stationary traffic on your left one minute and
then the next it's beginning to move off again, and you can't get back 'in lane'. I kind of don't
like that feeling!

In my experience, almost every car will leave a gap easily big enough for a bike to go into and go
to the left of the lane. Make the most of the gap by being pretty close to the car in front. As
long as you're covering your brakes, it's extremely unlikely it'll stop so suddenly you go into the
back of it.

After a while, getting in a gap like that becomes second nature. Much much easier than merging
between slow moving traffic lanes in a car.

A

Richard Goodman said:

Weell, the most frequent problem I find on the inside is peds stepping out into the road or
suddenly appearing from between vehicles having crossed from the other side. Dooring is a less
likely occurence unless you're passing on the outside of parked vehicles or it's a taxi...

Be careful. I've seen lots of passenger doors fly open unpredictably. I've come pretty close to a
passenger side dooring a few times, including while using the cycle lane.

--
Dave...

Peter Owens said:

Always overtake on the right. That is where people expect to be overtaken and there is always
more room.

Often not practical.

Quoted message said:

If you undertake then you will have much less room

That is simply not always true.

~PB

Danny Colyer said:

What I find very frustrating (and it happens to me most mornings) is when I want to pass the queue
of traffic behind a car waiting to turn right. Because the car at the front of the queue is
turning right, I'll pass on the inside. Unfortunately, more often than not the second car in the
queue will have his tyres almost touching the kerb, trying to squeeze through even though there's
less than half a car's width between the front car and the kerb. The result is that I can't get
through either.

God, I hate that. They haven't a chance of getting through, but they make sure that people on
sensible vehicles can't get through either. This is especially annoying if they've just forced their
way past you when there wasn't room. More dangerous is when they sit quietly behind the right
turning car, then make a sudden dart for the kerb just as you're going through.

--
Dave...

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:58:31 +0000, Dave Kahn <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weell, the most frequent problem I find on the inside is peds stepping out into the road or
suddenly appearing from between vehicles having crossed from the other side. Dooring is a less
likely occurence unless you're passing on the outside of parked vehicles or it's a taxi...

Be careful. I've seen lots of passenger doors fly open unpredictably. I've come pretty close to a
passenger side dooring a few times, including while using the cycle lane.

And quite often, IME, taxis stop wherever the driver feels fit. Of course, if you are the passenger
in the cab then stopping anywhere is OK. Conversely, if you're the cyclist just about to be
clobbered then it's less pleasant.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.