Compact Aluminum Frames BAD???



A

abrown360

Guest
So I am shopping for a cheap road bike, and I came across a site that
basically says that Aluminum Compact bike frames suck.
http://www.nordicgroup.us/bikerec/

The site then goes on to recommend the older (pre 2005) Fuji League,
Bianchi Brava, and a couple of other cheaper Chro-Moly steel framed
bikes.

I do not want to spend more than 600 bucks on a bike, and I prefer
downtube shifters. However, I cannot find any Fuji Leagues from before
this year.

What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?
Should I really be worried about it? Why would someone say Aluminum
sucks if it is what most bikes today are made out of? What is the
deal???

Are there any low-end steel frame road bikes out there any more? With
non-compact geometry?

Help me rec.bicycles.misc, you're my only hope.
 
I don't know nuthin' about this aloo-minn-eeyum biznatch.

However, Surly is a badass steel frame company. If the conclusion is
steel, you should look at Surly.

www.surlybikes.com
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
abrown360 <[email protected]> wrote:
>So I am shopping for a cheap road bike, and I came across a site that
>basically says that Aluminum Compact bike frames suck.
>http://www.nordicgroup.us/bikerec/

_ That's one person's opinion. I prefer steel bikes, but I think he
goes overboard. A bike that fits is way more important than what
it's made from. The bit about threadless headset is pure ****
IMHO. The only thing wrong with threadless headsets is that some
shops cut the forks too low to make the bikes look good in the
showroom. The design has many things to recommend it.

_ He's ranting against the material, when the real problem is the
design. Most AL compact frame bicycles are detuned racing
machines and come with set up that doesn't make a lot of sense
for the average person that just wants to ride a bike. The
mini-boom in road bikes is causing manufacturers to come to their
senses and you can now find some pretty nice AL bikes.

>
>The site then goes on to recommend the older (pre 2005) Fuji League,
>Bianchi Brava, and a couple of other cheaper Chro-Moly steel framed
>bikes.
>
>I do not want to spend more than 600 bucks on a bike, and I prefer
>downtube shifters. However, I cannot find any Fuji Leagues from before
>this year.

_ Jamis makes some fine steel bikes close to that price range.

>
>What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?
>Should I really be worried about it? Why would someone say Aluminum
>sucks if it is what most bikes today are made out of? What is the
>deal???

_ The deal is the aluminum is cheaper, lighter and sells better. Since
most bikes in the USA are parked in the garage after a few
hundred miles, rather than ridden, long term durablity is not
a selling point. Any reasonably well made AL bike will last you
at least 20 or 30 K miles and probably much more, very few bikes
sold ever get anywhere near that mileage.

>
>Are there any low-end steel frame road bikes out there any more? With
>non-compact geometry?
>

_ Sure, lot's, not many at that price level though. However, if I
found an aluminum bike that fit well and I liked, I'd buy it if
the price was right. If the bike doesn't fit well you won't ride
it long enough to wear out the aluminum frame and if it does the
components will likely wear out first.

_ Booker C. Bense

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abrown360 wrote:
> So I am shopping for a cheap road bike, and I came across a site that
> basically says that Aluminum Compact bike frames suck.
> http://www.nordicgroup.us/bikerec/

This is a personal site from a person who has, erm, strongly held
individual positions that may or may not intersect with r.b.m.
consensus, should there be such a thing.

> I do not want to spend more than 600 bucks on a bike, and I prefer
> downtube shifters. However, I cannot find any Fuji Leagues from before
> this year.

Without paying much attention to the Fuji Leagues business, a $600 road
bike is going to be difficult to find in current production. I think
the road bike market starts around $800 this year. You'll have more
luck if you can find a close-out of a prior year's model, which may
require waiting until later this summer.

> What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?
> Should I really be worried about it? Why would someone say Aluminum
> sucks if it is what most bikes today are made out of? What is the
> deal???

You want a bike that fits, from a dealer who knows what he's doing and
will treat you well. Compact frames are cheaper for a dealer, because
there are fewer sizes. That makes it even more imperative to find a
good dealer, because it's unlikely the bike will fit you well right out
of the box. Expect a fitting session, and probably a stem swap, before
you get it to fit.

About the aluminum business, consider the source.

> Are there any low-end steel frame road bikes out there any more? With
> non-compact geometry?

Yes, especially if you go with a touring bike, which has less extreme
geometry, is more versatile, should be ridden by everyone who is not
planning on racing, and is my personal choice. :)

Pat
 
"abrown360" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip>

> What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?

That's my web site, so I'll comment.

These are really two separate issues.

Compact frames should be avoided, for most people. They were created solely
to enable bicycle manufacturers to have less different sizes of frames,
though some companies market them as if they have some advantage to the
rider--they rarely do. With a smaller frame, but more adjustability range of
handlebars and seats, you can fit more people onto a smaller number of frame
sizes, but of course they don't fit real well! It reminds me of the old
Midas commercial for mufflers where they spoof their competitors, "Fit?
We'll MAKE IT FIT!" and they proceed to add all sorts of pipes, adapters,
etc., to get the only muffler they sell to fit the vehicle.

"Sizing and Fitting a customer properly to a road bike has also become a
lost art. With less and less biking knowledge and experience being available
to the consumer at the retail level, many companies "force" certain ideas or
components to make it easier on the retailer to sell or service
items...COMPACT frame geometry makes it easier to sell someone the correct
size COMPACT BIKE.but this is more about guesswork than a full working
knowledge of how a rider is supposed to fit onto his or her bicycle."

As far as alumimum goes, the issue is more of longevity, and repairability,
but most road frames are aluminum these days, other than the very high end,
and a few lower-end models like the Bianchi Brava. An aluminum frame is
okay, and if you eliminate all aluminum frames, your choices are very small,
unless you go to the very high end.

If you buy a model with a threadless headset, be especially careful that the
shop, or the manufacturer, did not cut the steer tube too short (this is a
very, very, common problem).

For $600, the Bianchi Brava is probably your best bet. It has a non-compact
steel frame, with a threaded headset. However it doesn't have downtube
shifters. Downtube shifters are extremely rare these days.

In summary, don't worry a lot about aluminum, it's not the optimal frame
material, but it's cheap and light, and durable enough. But avoid compact
frames like the plague.

Glad to see that you found that web site (the other URL for it is
http://bicycleshortlist.com).
 
Steven M. Scharf wrote:

> Compact frames should be avoided, for most people.

{bunch of similar opinionated bs snipped}

> In summary, don't worry a lot about aluminum, it's not the optimal
> frame material, but it's cheap and light, and durable enough. But
> avoid compact frames like the plague.

Gee, I wish I'd known this before buying my Klein Q-carbon Team and putting
about 7500 miles on it with virtually no problems whatsoever.

Looks good; feels good; rides fine... (no) BS
 
People. Stop saying each other are too opinionated. I really need info
here, not squabbling over what is better, and whether opinions matter
or not...
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
abrown360 <[email protected]> wrote:
>People. Stop saying each other are too opinionated. I really need info
>here, not squabbling over what is better, and whether opinions matter
>or not...
>

_ On USENET? Squabbling is the entire point of it's
existance. Any informational content you get is merely
an accidental by product...

_ Booker C. Bense

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abrown360 wrote:
> People. Stop saying each other are too opinionated. I really need info
> here, not squabbling over what is better, and whether opinions matter
> or not...

You got all twisted up BECAUSE YOU READ AN OPINION. (Hint: there are MANY
of them.)

Go to some bike shops. Take some test rides. Buy the bike that feels right
/to you/.

Better?

/bs
 
abrown360 wrote:

> wonderful. 2 more great replies.

Here's one more for you, brainiac: LEARN HOW TO QUOTE.

(Perhaps a TRIKE is better suited to you?)
 
On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:53:41 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[email protected]> wrote:

Hmm. Dogmatic assertion by Scharf: engage scepticism.

>Compact frames should be avoided, for most people. They were created solely
>to enable bicycle manufacturers to have less different sizes of frames,
>though some companies market them as if they have some advantage to the
>rider--they rarely do.

Quick review, can I think of anyone who has been influential in the
design of compact frame bikes? Why yes! Mike Burrows.

http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/burrows.htm

I can state with fair confidence that Mike Burrows is "one of Earth's
leading authorities on bicycle design".

So, it looks like Scharf may well be talking out of his **** (again).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
"abrown360" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?
> Should I really be worried about it? Why would someone say Aluminum
> sucks if it is what most bikes today are made out of? What is the
> deal???

I think a compact frame is no better or worse than a traditional frame, if
both fit equally well. You should never buy a bike that's not a perfect fit.
There will be frames that don't fit you properly no matter what their
geometry. Compact designs are just one more variation.

Some compact frames have taller head tubes, allowing for higher handlebar
positions. This can be good, if you want higher bars. Compact frames allow
some riders to go to a slightly larger frame size overall, because the
standover is lower. A relatively larger frame can be good if you have a long
torso or long arms.

Some manufacturers do indeed offer fewer sizes with their compact designs,
so some riders may not find one that fits them properly. That will be true
of any given make/model of bike, whatever its design.
OTOH, some manufacturers offer the same low number of sizes on traditionally
designed steel bikes, while still others offer more sizes on compact frames.

So on the compact frame issue, I say they are a good thing because they
provide more choices in the marketplace. Fit is the most important
characteristic of a road bike; it trumps everything else.

I will go so far as to agree that in my experience cheaper steel road bikes
seem to have a more comfortable, less punishing ride than comparably-priced
aluminum, and for some riders the slight weight penalty is worth it. But I
haven't ridden every bike. I did, a few years ago, extensively compare a
Fuji Roubaix (alu) against a Roubaix Pro (steel), and found the steel frame
to offer a significantly more comfortable ride. Since the bikes were
otherwise quite comparable, I decided the differences were largely
attributable to the frames. A different rider (especially a lighter one)
might well have concluded differently.

Of my three bikes, one has compact geometry and two don't. All three bikes
fit the same, and the geometry itself has no impact on how they ride. (None
are aluminum, however.)

RichC
 
abrown360 wrote:
> So I am shopping for a cheap road bike, and I came across a site that
> basically says that Aluminum Compact bike frames suck.
> http://www.nordicgroup.us/bikerec/
>
> The site then goes on to recommend the older (pre 2005) Fuji League,
> Bianchi Brava, and a couple of other cheaper Chro-Moly steel framed
> bikes.
>
> I do not want to spend more than 600 bucks on a bike, and I prefer
> downtube shifters. However, I cannot find any Fuji Leagues from before
> this year.
>
> What do you people think about this whole Compact Aluminum business?
> Should I really be worried about it? Why would someone say Aluminum
> sucks if it is what most bikes today are made out of? What is the
> deal???
>
> Are there any low-end steel frame road bikes out there any more? With
> non-compact geometry?
>
> Help me rec.bicycles.misc, you're my only hope.
>

Frame material really doesn't make any difference. If a compact frame
fits you, that doesn't matter either. I don't think fit is all the
voodoo it's made up to be, either. When you pick a bike geometry, you're
basically picking a back angle. If you're flexible and want to ride
fast, you'll want your back low, for less wind resistance, otherwise,
you may want it higher for comfort. Once you've picked that, it's a
matter of both having enough clearance between your crotch and the
toptube, and getting a toptube length that doesn't leave you scrunched
or stretched without resorting to really odd length stems, or unusual
seatposts. For most people, it's pretty simple after you pick how "racy"
you want your back. The bike shop should get the handlebars to the
height for your preferred back angle.

If you want a really "racy" back, you'll want a seattube that is more
vertical, that keeps your thighs from hitting your ribs.

The deal with "compact" frames is that the toptubes slope down toward
the back, which allows smaller rides to use the frame. For taller
riders, long seatposts are used, which may cause the handlebars to be
too low for some. There are some ways to correct this, but some people
think those make a bike look goofy. Like anything else, it's a matter of
personal preference.

Fuji bikes are generally thought to be a pretty good deal. If you can
find one in your price range and a good shop to set you up, go for it.
If you can get a good fit it doesn't matter that it's a compact frame.
 
On 2 Jun 2005 11:56:19 -0700, "abrown360" <[email protected]> wrote:

>thank you for this reply rich. it was very informative.

The important thing your fit on the bike. This is more important than
almost anything else. If you're a beginning rider you might not know what a
good fit is, but the more bikes you test ride the better you will be able
to judge. Also as you get better on the bike you will want to have a
different position - more stretched out. So what fits you in the first two
years of your riding - assuming you will be trying to improve - might not
fit you well the third year and beyond.

Make sure you take your time and ride a variety of bikes - this experience
will give you an ever broadening view of what a good 'fit' feels like. Ride
standing and sitting. yada, yada. HTH

jj
 
"abrown360" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> People. Stop saying each other are too opinionated. I really need info
> here, not squabbling over what is better, and whether opinions matter
> or not...

You have to accept that people have different opinions.

Aluminum is okay, it's not the best choice for a frame material, but you
will be severely limited in your choices, esepcially at the low end, if you
exclude aluminum.

The issue of compact frames is not open to opinion---in my opinion. The
facts about why manufacturers are pushing compact frames are well known. You
can easily avoid compact frames, and while the low end is beginning to be
dominated by compact frames, there are still other choices at the low end.
 
"jj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2 Jun 2005 11:56:19 -0700, "abrown360" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >thank you for this reply rich. it was very informative.
>
> The important thing your fit on the bike. This is more important than
> almost anything else. If you're a beginning rider you might not know what
a
> good fit is, but the more bikes you test ride the better you will be able
> to judge.

I question this. The test ride is not of sufficient duration, or under
enough different conditions, to allow you to know if the fit is good (though
it may let you know if it is really bad).

Go to a shop that carries a variety of products from different
manufacturers, and that has knowlegable sales people, and that will do a
proper fitting (even if you have to pay for a fitting on a fit kit).
Otherwise you'll end up being sold what the shop wants to sell you, rather
than what is best for you.

If the original poster says where he is, then people can recommend shops in
his area.

The recommendation for the Bianchi Brava has been made often, and not just
by me. It has a very good range of frame sizes, all the way down to 44cm.
The adjustable stem, chromolloy frame, and non-compact geometry, are not
easy to find in a road bicycle under $1500. http://www.bianchiusa.com/brava
.. The compromises are that the component group is a lower end one, but is
still fine. The frame is 520 rather than 831, which adds a little weight.

Steve
http://bicycleshortlist.com
 
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