Critique requested

(Gary Young) said:

As for fit, that can be had for a lot less money than Seven charges, but it probably helps to have
enough knowledge to find people who will do it right. Maybe Seven earns its premium by getting it
right consistently.

The Seven fit process is supposed to be really good, and I'm sure it is for most people. But I know
two people who got Sevens and didn't like the fit. In one case (a woman I was coaching on bike
tactics/technique who I'd spent a fair amount of time watching ride) the instant I saw her on her
knew bike I said something like "That's a mistake" to which she gave me the maddest look as she had
just laid down serious cash. But six months or a year later she stopped riding it and went back to
her old bike.

These are just two data points out of a lot. Two other people I know love their Sevens. But in both
cases I think they could've done just as well with a pro-fit and looking at a variety of cheaper,
stock bikes, as neither is really strangely-proportioned. One has a vast amount of money, so it
doesn't matter to her.

JT

Quoted message said:

Remember that a $4,000 frame can be more affordable to a successful businessman than a $200 frame
is to a person who works at a fast food restaurant.

maybe, but so what? if the $200 frame is good enough, then why would a businessman waste more on an
expensive frame? I'll tell you why, since I own 2 Titanium frames myself: one handmade Merckx custom
Titanium with Litespeed tubing and one frame made of Russian Titanium. Can I feel the difference?
NO! The Merckx is better for me since the geometry corresponds more to what I need (I have
relatively spoken a long back and short legs).

The reason why someone buys a Seven, Leica (I'm also guilty!), Rolex, Questar or any other similar
product is the idea of having the absolue best that money can buy. It's more psychological than
anything else I think. For more quality (or just more prestige in some cases) one pays easily a few
times the value of another product that could also satisfy one's needs. Do you think I can't live
without a Leica? Or that I'm that good a cyclist that I need a custom Titanium Merckx? But what the
heck: it's good for economy and I feel proud owning one, so why should anybody bother?

Derk

Quoted message said:

Remember that a $4,000 frame can be more affordable to a successful businessman than a $200 frame
is to a person who works at a fast food restaurant.

maybe, bust so what? if the $200 frame is good enough, then why would a businessman waste more on an
expensive frame? I'll tell you why, since I own 2 Titanium frames myself: one handmade Merckx custom
Titanium with Litespeed tubing (or so I heard) and one frame made of Russian Titanium. Can I feel
the difference? NO! The Merckx is better for me since the geometry corresponds more to what I need
(I have relatively spoken a long back and short legs).

The reason why someone buys a Seven, Leica (I'm also guilty!), Rolex, Questar or any other similar
product is the idea of having the absolue best that money can buy. It's more psychological than
anything else I think. For more quality (or just more prestige in some cases) one pays easily a few
times the value of another product that could also satisfy one's needs. Do you think I can't live
without a Leica? Or that I'm that good a cyclist that I need a custom Titanium Merckx? But what the
heck: it's good for economy and I feel proud owning one, so why should anybody bother?

Derk

In rec.bicycles.tech John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote:
: is for most people. But I know two people who got Sevens and didn't like the fit.
<snip>

that's weird, she would have had to have been either not paying attention or just blindly checking
off on whatever they said because they give you like three fit sessions including several with the
frame specs they're going to work with and at every point you can veto it and start over. i mean you
do have to put some effort into it. a lot is going to depend on your LBS, of course.

: as well with a pro-fit and looking at a variety of cheaper, stock bikes, as neither is really
: strangely-proportioned. One has a vast amount of money, so it doesn't matter to her.

for the record my complete bike cost less than a trek 5500.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

David Reuteler said:

In rec.bicycles.tech John Forrest Tomlinson

Quoted message said:

: is for most people. But I know two people who got Sevens and

didn't

Quoted message said:

: like the fit.
<snip>

that's weird, she would have had to have been either not paying

attention

Quoted message said:

or just blindly checking off

I wouldn't say "blindly" -- in one case the ride was overly trusting of their suggestions and they
hadn't seen her ride enough (and probably not all all outdoors) to see that what they were
suggesting was not an improvement over her existing bike (which was not perfect either, but the fit
problems there were different).

I don't know the details of the other case.

JT

whatsa habernero??

jasta luego!

Brian Wax said:

Quoted message said:

PlonK! Kill file.

Please plonk/killfile me too.

I have no idea who Fabrizio is. Does he have a seven? If so he must be a good guy. :-) "Mike Kruger"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a Seven Axiom myself ... It all comes down to style. I will never win a race so I may as
well look good

at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the back of the pack.

Are you another alias for the guy who writes as "Fabrizio"?

No offence to your fine bikes but it's probably because he doesn't want anyone to steal his bike..
Where I come from if there was a Merlin and a Habanero sitting side by side I would think the Merlin
would be the first choice for someone to steal.

again, no offence to your bike

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:15:51 +0000, Paul wrote:
>with a frame price of $3595 I would really look good at the back of the pack. :-)
Lordy, lordy, lordy. You do know you'd look the same riding any other frame with Seven decals.
That is a lot to pay for decals.

I see a big opportunity for Habanero here. :-)

I see more of an opportunity for a decal printer... ;-)

It's kind of funny though - I have a customer in Mexico who's putting Habanero decals on his
Merlin. I often wonder how many people do the opposite.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Don't blame seven. Blame the shop who went over her specs with her. The LBS is suppose to fit her
with a bike that closely matches the specs that were provided. If this happened then she should have
spent a few weeks riding the bike before she signed off on the specs.

If you were her coach why didn't you go over the specs before she signed off?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Gary Young) said:

As for fit, that can be had for a lot less money than Seven charges, but it probably helps to
have enough knowledge to find people who will do it right. Maybe Seven earns its premium by
getting it right consistently.

The Seven fit process is supposed to be really good, and I'm sure it is for most people. But I
know two people who got Sevens and didn't like the fit. In one case (a woman I was coaching on
bike tactics/technique who I'd spent a fair amount of time watching ride) the instant I saw her on
her knew bike I said something like "That's a mistake" to which she gave me the maddest look as
she had just laid down serious cash. But six months or a year later she stopped riding it and went
back to her old bike.

These are just two data points out of a lot. Two other people I know love their Sevens. But in
both cases I think they could've done just as well with a pro-fit and looking at a variety of
cheaper, stock bikes, as neither is really strangely-proportioned. One has a vast amount of money,
so it doesn't matter to her.

JT

That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It means I have enough money to buy
what I want. That's also the reason I buy ASSOS clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason I buy
Tag Heuer instead of Casio. That's why I have a purebred dog instead of a mutt. If you are happy
with your junker bike, Sugoi clothing, Casio watch and mutt then all the more power to you but
please don't be jealous of someone who buys what they want.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

Remember that a $4,000 frame can be more affordable to a successful businessman than a $200 frame
is to a person who works at a fast food restaurant.

And that's part of the point of a Seven right? People into bikes will know you have serius cash.

JT
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David Damerell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Doug Pearl <[email hidden]> wrote: [Seven Axiom]

Quoted message said:

And I do enjoy having a bike that is unique.

But you don't. Those of us with old bikes are much more likely to have unique machines, especially
those of us that have had them repaired. _My_ bike is unique.

Dear David,

Always remember that you're absolutely special and unique . . .

Just like everyone else.

Carl Fogel

Paul said:

That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It

means I

Quoted message said:

have enough money to buy what I want. That's also the reason I buy

ASSOS

Quoted message said:

clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason I buy Tag Heuer instead

of

Quoted message said:

Casio.

There seems to be something circular in logic. There's a reason? And the reason is you have enough
money to buy it? But what's the reason you want to buy it?

I suggested that conspicous consumption is *part* of the motivation for buying a bike like a Seven
(or a Tag watch) and stand by that.

JT

BTW I'm generally not jealous of people who are into conspicuous consumption. It's more pity or
contempt depending on my mood and the nature of their consuption.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:12:59 -0400, "Paul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If you were her coach why didn't you go over the specs before she signed off?

As I said, I was her coach on bike racing tactics and technique (race strategy, pacelines, leadouts,
etc) -- a limited role.

JT

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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:31:51 GMT, "Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> from Comcast

Online said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:26:16 -0700, Doug Pearl <[email hidden]> from .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Kevan Smith <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:45:41 -0700, Doug Pearl <[email hidden]> from

Altopia

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Corp. - Usenet Access - www.altopia.com wrote:
>
> >"I ride a piece of [censored] 20 yr old bike, and this makes me better than all those yuppies on
> >overpriced Ti, etc etc".
>
> Yeah? It's all in the legs, anyway. Fabrizzio could drop you no matter

what

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> you rode.

And? What does that have to do with this discussion? Anybody who knows anything knows it's the
rider not the bike. Again, not relevant to the discussion.

If it's the rider and not the bike, then what does it matter at all what

the

Quoted message said:

bike is?

Yeah, it's not the bike. As I already said, just buy a plastic big wheel and you "real" racers will
be happy.

I'd love a plastic big wheel in my size.

Metal woudl be cool, too. Or maybe carbon ....
--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com Alex's car walks the dismal and dirty pigeons

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It means I have enough money to buy
what I want. That's also the reason I buy ASSOS clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason I buy
Tag Heuer instead of Casio. That's why I have a purebred dog instead of a mutt. If you are happy
with your junker bike, Sugoi clothing, Casio watch and mutt then all the more power to you but
please don't be jealous of someone who buys what they want.

It probably makes no sense to bother arguing with the type of person who wants to prescribe what
everyone else should buy based on their own funding limitations. The fact that they're intimidated
by your earning capacity should be of no concern to you.

Have fun on your cool new bike. One of these days I hope I can afford one too!

Shayne Wissler

In article Sudjb.566230$cF.242250@rwcrnsc53 said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misunderstand rec.bicycles.tech. For the most part, people here are interested in
looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues of various bikes. If you want to have a
productive discussion here, perhaps you could explain why, on a technical level, your Seven is
better than other bikes that cost far less money. As far as I can tell, the only thing you have
to say on that score is that a bunch of bike shops told you so. Thus, you yourself have created
the impression that your purchase was motivated by what others think of your bike and its price.

There is common knowledge on this issue--you could give him the benefit of the doubt of knowing
something about it, and having actually gone to the Seven website. The bikes are very light, and
the frames are custom built to your particular measurements. I've seen a lot of comments about the
bike "fitting like a glove" or "being an extention of your body"--a feel like this could definitely
be worth some dough.

That's what you're supposed to think yes - on the other hand for many people it's the dough that
gives them the feeling you refer to, not the bike. That is OK with me but I won't pretend it's about
the merits of the equipment. I own bikes that cost more than necessary too and I don't justify my
expenditures by talking about their vague and mystical riding qualities, you may as well be talking
about the bike's aura. It's fashion!

--Paul

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

FYI: I have a well-paid job with a large computer company; I do not own a motor car or have
children. Don't give me that [censored] about my own funding limitations when I'm rude about
overpriced bikes.

Oh, so you'd prefer to be given a hard time about your arrogance in presuming to know whether this
or that bike costs too much to be worth it to some guy on the internet you don't even know?

What's that got to do with it? For that matter, you're engaged in a mutual [censored]-kissing exercise
with some guy you don't even know; but I can say that the cost and functionality of the bike remain
the same whoever's buying it.

Quoted message said:

So tell us Mr. God of the Cycling Economy, how much exactly should we all be paying for our bikes?
Is $700 overpriced? How about $1200? $2000?

Depends. Does that extra $500, or $800, effect any meaningful change in functionality?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

[email hidden] (Claire Petersky) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
sent me:

Slice-

Wow, Claire, how do you do it? Another marathon rbc thread. Did Fab ever jump in? Let's allelujah
all day long!

Cheers! Mark

The sun is shining, the birds are singing, and my glass is half full. That's my story and I'm
sticking to it.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

FYI: I have a well-paid job with a large computer company; I do not own

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

motor car or have children. Don't give me that [censored] about my own funding limitations when I'm
rude about overpriced bikes.

Oh, so you'd prefer to be given a hard time about your arrogance in presuming to know whether
this or that bike costs too much to be worth it

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some guy on the internet you don't even know?

What's that got to do with it? For that matter, you're engaged in a mutual [censored]-kissing exercise
with some guy you don't even know;

No, I just find it incredible how often people in these cycling forums change the subject from bike
quality to the ethics of buying an "expensive" bike. I think it's great that bike manufacturers are
making such high-tech bikes, and it's great that so many people can afford them, and I hope this
"conspicuous" consumption keeps increasing since it drives up the quality and affordability of all
bicycles. If anything is ethical, it's in working hard enough to be able to purchase one of these
dream machines, and in being able to create one.

As far as your ethical ideas on how much is too much go, they are bizzare and totally wrong-headed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So tell us Mr. God of the Cycling Economy, how much exactly should we all

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

paying for our bikes? Is $700 overpriced? How about $1200? $2000?

Depends. Does that extra $500, or $800, effect any meaningful change in functionality?

Well that's a question you should have asked at the beginning--if the technical side was really what
you cared about. But it would be pointless for anyone to try to prove that for you, the 1-2lbs drop
in weight was "meaningful." Maybe for you it's not. For other riders it is. Perhaps a custom fit
isn't something you care about. Others like knowing that their bike's fit is optimal. Some people
are happy on a Huffy. I find my old Peugot frustrating to ride now that I've been riding my new
LeMond. Other people would be quite happy with that old bike.

That's why they sell a wide range of bikes--everyone is different.

I don't see those with expensive bikes sneering at you about what you deem to be "meaningful". You
just have an envy problem.

Shayne Wissler