Critique requested

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't justify my expenditures by talking about their vague and mystical riding qualities, you
may as well be talking about the bike's aura. It's fashion!

I don't know if you are talking about me but not once did I mention

anything

Quoted message said:

about mystical riding qualities.

Ah, mystical. So we ARE back to Claire Petersky's area of expertise!
home.earthlink.netBicycle Meditations.htmOpen ↗

Thanks Shayne

People seem to think that a Seven or a Merlin are for the rich. Nothing could be further from the
truth. It all comes down to priorities. Some people spend more money on drinking, smoking and eating
out in a few years than the average high-end bike. If your priority is to spend $100 going to a
fancy restaurant once or twice a month all the best to you. Some people think nothing of spending
5,000 on a cruise for two every few years. Again, good for you but that cruise could buy 2 steel
Seven frames.

I guess I should hold the purchase of my winter bike (Seven Elium) :-) which I really like because I
wouldn't want all the insecure people to think I am showing off

Quoted message said:

It probably makes no sense to bother arguing with the type of person who wants to prescribe what
everyone else should buy based on their own

funding

Quoted message said:

limitations. The fact that they're intimidated by your earning capacity should be of no
concern to you.

Have fun on your cool new bike. One of these days I hope I can afford one too!

Shayne Wissler

Quoted message said:

There seems to be something circular in logic. There's a reason? And the reason is you have enough
money to buy it? But what's the reason you want to buy it?

Quoted message said:

BTW I'm generally not jealous of people who are into conspicuous consumption. It's more pity or
contempt depending on my mood and the nature of their consuption

The reason I bought it is because I wanted a Ti bike. the local bike shops in the area sold
Litespeed, Seven and IF. I didn't want an IF so that left a choice between a Litespeed and a Seven.
I called many shops who sold both Litespeeds and Sevens and EVERY dealer told me that a comparable
Seven was better than a comparable Litespeed.

ps Life is much to short to pity a person on a newsgroup who you don't even know. I
truly pity you.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

I'd love a plastic big wheel in my size.

Metal woudl be cool, too. Or maybe carbon ....

I'd be happy w/ flat chainrings that don't bump-&-grind the chain against the fder in certain gear
combos. And looking for strings of parked cars to reflect the sound of what's going on in the
drivetrain, so I can discern & analyze it.

I wish you well in your quest for a plastic wheel.

I kinda wanna head 400 kliks north & east to the Yellow Country of the Thompson River Valley, where
black widow spiders and rattlesnakes enjoy hurtin' ppl. Where I can earn a living hauling pigs to
the slaughterhouse, and getting [censored]-assed cows' heads unstuck from between fence rails, and have to
scrape mung from the heels & soles of my boots before stepping into an house.

No, I don't.

I wanna stay here in Vancouver, with my lowly, non-Ti bikes that get me everywhere. My current
listening to The Who's Quadraphenia reinforces my sentiments.

JHVH, puhleez lemme stay here, where fresh seafood abounds!

ARRGGHHHHHH!!!!

AARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!

Being /totally/ broke ain't pretty. Not by a long shot.

I hope there's a decent bike shop in Cache Creek.

If not, maybe I should see to it that there is.

Maybe there's a pot of gold at the end of the ... It sure don't seem like it. OTOH, life is an
adventure. Always has been; always will be. What's behind the curve up ahead?

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
[point] bc [point] ca

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with a frame price of $3595 I would really look good at the back of the pack. :-) "You make
statements like that and you wonder that people get on your case? Why would you "really look
good"? Because the bike looks good? You didn't say that. Because the bike performs well? You
didn't say

t>hat either (in fact, "at the back of the pack" suggests that it

Quoted message said:

wouldn't make much difference). Because the frame price is $3595? Bingo.

It is a joke. I have never won a race but I can assure you I am nowhere near the back of the pack

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misunderstand rec.bicycles.tech. For the most part, people here are interested in
looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues of various bikes. If you want to have a
productive discussion here, perhaps you could explain why, on a technical level, your Seven is
better than other bikes that cost far less money. As far as I can tell, the only thing you have
to say on that score is that a bunch of bike shops told you so. Thus, you yourself have created
the impression that your purchase was motivated by what others think of your bike and its price.

that is the stupidest thing I have heard today. The reason I bought the bike is because I narrowed
it down to a few "Higher" end bikes and the LBS convinced me that I purchase the Seven . Obviously
the final decision was mine but how else is a person suppose to make a decision. Would you rather
I just read the promotional literature given by the bike companies. I would think they are a
little biased towards their own product. Would you expect me to have them custom make me a
Litespeed, IF, and Seven and have them each lend me a bike for a few months so I can make a
decision? Not likely to happen is it? Who better to believe than a bike shop that sells all the
above brands? They are profiting the same on all the bikes so I can't see why they would steer me
in the wrong direction. Not much use in using your LBS if you can't trust them is there?

Well, the first question I would have is why did you narrow it down to "higher end" frames?

Beyond that, I'm not trying to suggest that a novice should ignore the advice of a good bikeshop.
But why should we on rec.bicycles.tech care? You don't seem able to articulate any reason the Seven
is better. All you have is second-hand word-of-mouth from a bikeshop. I will grant you that
rec.bicycles.tech doesn't always live up to the ideals of many of its members, but this is a good
place to learn things. There are great teachers here, including a lot of people with much more
experience in the bicycle world than you'll find in your average bikeshop. After a few years of
lurking on this list, I found that it was often the case that I know more than the bikeshop people.
That includes the "higher end" shops, where the ignorance sometimes is worst of all.

To benefit from that, all you have to do is listen, pose questions and make statements that are
backed up by facts and observations. All you've said so far is that your bike is better because it
has a "higher end" reputation and because some bikeshop picked it out of a group of "higher end"
frames. If you really want to contribute to the discussion here, why don't you find out WHY the bike
shop said that and report back. Then we would have something to go on other than your silly
posturing.

Quoted message said:

So how did you make your decision on your bike? Please tell us all so we can be more educated in
our next purchase

I got a bargain on a steel touring frame (Koga-Miyata) that fits me perfectly. I am currently taking
welding classes and hope to build my own frame in steel, time and my skill permitting. I know that I
could get a lighter bike by spending much more money, but I also know from following this group that
a light bike will not greatly benefit my performance. Your kind of riding might be much different,
but I think the "fit is most important" advice applies pretty much across the board. As I've said
earlier in this thread, Seven may be meticulous about fit, but there's no reason you can't get good
fit at a lower price.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For the most part, people here are interested in looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues
of various bikes

You haven't read many posts have you?

Again, I will grant you that the group isn't always enlightening.

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<Sudjb.566230$cF.242250@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misunderstand rec.bicycles.tech. For the most part, people here are interested in
looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues of various bikes. If you want to have a
productive discussion here, perhaps you could explain why, on a technical level, your Seven is
better than other bikes that cost far less money. As far as I can tell, the only thing you have
to say on that score is that a bunch of bike shops told you so. Thus, you yourself have created
the impression that your purchase was motivated by what others think of your bike and its price.

There is common knowledge on this issue--you could give him the benefit of the doubt of knowing
something about it, and having actually gone to the Seven website. The bikes are very light, and
the frames are custom built to your particular measurements. I've seen a lot of comments about the
bike "fitting like a glove" or "being an extention of your body"--a feel like this could
definitely be worth some dough.

As I've said earlier in this thread, IF Seven consistently gets the fit right, then it may be worth
it for some people to cough up the extra dough. But I don't see why it's necessary to pay that much
money to get good fit if you have a little bit of knowledge and know where to go for advice. Is it
your contention that Seven has some kind of secret knowledge that no one else has?

(Mark) from url='http://groups.google.com/'http://groups.google.com/url said:

[email hidden] (Claire Petersky) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
sent me:

Slice-

Wow, Claire, how do you do it? Another marathon rbc thread. Did Fab ever jump in? Let's allelujah
all day long!

It's kind of an odd time for this thread, too, what with the onset of winter and yucky riding
conditions. If I got a bike as expensive as a Seven now, I'd be afraid to ride it until the weather
cleared out in the spring. That would suck, staring at a bike all winter.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com Life is a POPULARITY CONTEST! I'm
REFRESHINGLY CANDID!!

In article <[email hidden]>, David Damerell

Quoted message said:

Doug Pearl <[email hidden]> wrote: [Seven Axiom]

Quoted message said:

And I do enjoy having a bike that is unique.

But you don't. Those of us with old bikes are much more likely to have unique machines, especially
those of us that have had them repaired. _My_ bike is unique.

How do you know mine is not custom painted? It's not but you didn't know that.

Anyway, it may not be one of a kind, outwardly, but it is in terms of geometry, tubeset, etc. And
they are relatively uncommon. I have yet to see one like mine since I got it 6 mos ago.

-Doug

Paul' from Bell Sympatico said:

It is a joke. I have never won a race but I can assure you I am nowhere near the back of
the pack ...

Got a motor scooter, eh? 🙂

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com CHUBBY CHECKER just had a CHICKEN SANDWICH in
downtown DULUTH!

When I ordered my Seven, my LBS modified the fit on my existing bike to approximate the fit of the
Seven. It was not exact but close enuf I think.

I ended up dropping my handlebar height 1cm, otherwise the fit and setup was on the money.

-Doug

In article said:

Don't blame seven. Blame the shop who went over her specs with her. The LBS is suppose to fit her
with a bike that closely matches the specs that were provided. If this happened then she should
have spent a few weeks riding the bike before she signed off on the specs.

If you were her coach why didn't you go over the specs before she signed off?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Gary Young) said:

As for fit, that can be had for a lot less money than Seven charges, but it probably helps to
have enough knowledge to find people who will do it right. Maybe Seven earns its premium by
getting it right consistently.

The Seven fit process is supposed to be really good, and I'm sure it is for most people. But I
know two people who got Sevens and didn't like the fit. In one case (a woman I was coaching on
bike tactics/technique who I'd spent a fair amount of time watching ride) the instant I saw her
on her knew bike I said something like "That's a mistake" to which she gave me the maddest look
as she had just laid down serious cash. But six months or a year later she stopped riding it and
went back to her old bike.

These are just two data points out of a lot. Two other people I know love their Sevens. But in
both cases I think they could've done just as well with a pro-fit and looking at a variety of
cheaper, stock bikes, as neither is really strangely-proportioned. One has a vast amount of
money, so it doesn't matter to her.

JT

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the first question I would have is why did you narrow it down to "higher end" frames?

I have two Aluminum bikes (MTB and Road) which are $3000 and $4000. I wanted a Ti bike so that
really narrows it down. I don't know of many "cheap" Ti bikes in my area. I guess I could have
bought a cheap bike off the internet but I like the service I get from the LBS. I agree that there
are much more knowledgeable people here than there are at many bike shops but I trust the "experts"
at my bike shop much more than someone off the internet who I don't know. The guy I bought this from
has over 40 years experience in the business.

Quoted message said:

To benefit from that, all you have to do is listen, pose questions and make statements that are
backed up by facts and observations. All you've said so far is that your bike is better because it
has a "higher end" reputation and because some bikeshop picked it out of a group of "higher end"
frames. >

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall saying that my bike is better because it has a "higher
end" reputation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how did you make your decision on your bike? Please tell us all so

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can be more educated in our next purchase

I got a bargain on a steel touring frame (Koga-Miyata) that fits me perfectly.

And how much did you pay for this "bargain" bike? I am sure you could have found a bike sitting at
the end of someone's driveway that would have fit just as good and it would have cost you $0. Why
did you feel the need to purchase this "higher end" steel touring frame?

ps "higher end" is a relative term

Since there are many knowledgeable people hear I would like to pose a question to all the "experts".
Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and does
competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

Please give your reason for making your choice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you misunderstand rec.bicycles.tech. For the most part, people here are interested in
looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues of various bikes. If you want to have a
productive discussion here, perhaps you could explain why, on a technical level, your Seven is
better than other bikes that cost far less money. As far as I can tell, the only thing you
have to say on that score is that a bunch of bike shops told you so. Thus, you yourself have
created the impression that your purchase was motivated by what others think of your bike and

Paul said:

I called many shops who sold both Litespeeds and Sevens and EVERY dealer told me that a comparable
Seven was better than a comparable Litespeed.

Cool. Seven dealers are good at selling. Consumers are good at consuming.

JT

*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit jt10000.comjt10000.comOpen ↗
*******************************************

Actually I do. It's Titanium :-) "Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul' from Bell Sympatico said:

It is a joke. I have never won a race but I can assure you I am nowhere near the back of the
pack ...

Got a motor scooter, eh? 🙂

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com CHUBBY CHECKER just had a CHICKEN SANDWICH in
downtown DULUTH!

Paul said:

ps Life is much to short to pity a person on a newsgroup who you don't even know. I truly pity
you.>

Well, that made perfect sense.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Shayne Wissler said:

It probably makes no sense to bother arguing with the type of person who wants to prescribe what
everyone else should buy based on their own funding limitations. The fact that they're intimidated
by your earning capacity should be of no concern to you.

Well, there's a straw man for you.

FYI: I have a well-paid job with a large computer company; I do not own a motor car or have
children. Don't give me that [censored] about my own funding limitations when I'm rude about
overpriced bikes.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Doug Pearl said:

David Damerell said:

Doug Pearl said:

And I do enjoy having a bike that is unique.

But you don't. Those of us with old bikes are much more likely to have unique machines, especially
those of us that have had them repaired. _My_ bike is unique.

How do you know mine is not custom painted? It's not but you didn't know that.

To be honest, I never thought of that - but I wouldn't really count exterior appearance, or everyone
with a single scratch on their bike has a "unique" machine.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, it may not be one of a kind, outwardly, but it is in terms of geometry, tubeset, etc.

Tubes are mass-produced, and are you _sure_ they've never made one in the same geometry? Are you of
an unusual height, perhaps?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:15:51 +0000, Paul wrote:
>with a frame price of $3595 I would really look good at the back of the pack. :-)
Lordy, lordy, lordy. You do know you'd look the same riding any other frame with Seven decals.
That is a lot to pay for decals.

I see a big opportunity for Habanero here. :-)

I see more of an opportunity for a decal printer... ;-)

It's kind of funny though - I have a customer in Mexico who's putting Habanero decals on his
Merlin. I often wonder how many people do the opposite.

When I built a commuter bike up for my wife with a "trash day" brand frame, I suggested (she uses it
on club rides also) we make up our own "7" decals from stick-on hardware store numbers. She liked
the idea, but decided we should use "8" instead for extra snob appeal.

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

frame prices sevencycles.compriceroad.htmlOpen ↗

I was just checking out their website and noticed that they are building a new frame. Has anyone
seen the Alium? Looks pretty nice. Maybe my new Axiom won't do me for another 10 years LOL.

with a frame price of $3595 I would really look good at the back of the pack. :-)

You make statements like that and you wonder that people get on your case? Why would you "really
look good"? Because the bike looks good? You didn't say that. Because the bike performs well? You
didn't say that either (in fact, "at the back of the pack" suggests that it wouldn't make much
difference). Because the frame price is $3595? Bingo.

Perhaps you misunderstand rec.bicycles.tech. For the most part, people here are interested in
looking beyond fashion to the technical virtues of various bikes. If you want to have a productive
discussion here, perhaps you could explain why, on a technical level, your Seven is better than
other bikes that cost far less money. As far as I can tell, the only thing you have to say on that
score is that a bunch of bike shops told you so. Thus, you yourself have created the impression that
your purchase was motivated by what others think of your bike and its price.

"Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't justify my expenditures by talking about their vague and mystical riding qualities,
you may as well be talking about the bike's aura. It's fashion!

I don't know if you are talking about me but not once did I mention

anything

Quoted message said:

about mystical riding qualities.

Ah, mystical. So we ARE back to Claire Petersky's area of expertise!
home.earthlink.netBicycle Meditations.htmOpen ↗

I would prefer you'd use the newer front page of home.earthlink.netWelcome.htmOpen ↗

I admit, there's still those same old broken links which I have fixed but never uploaded, and I
revamped the bicycle wheel of meditation section and never uploaded that, either. Mark Buell was
going to help with all of this, and then I think he got a job or something and ended up with better
things to do with his time.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

Home of the meditative cyclist: home.earthlink.netWelcome.htmOpen ↗

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: bookcrossing.comCpeterskyOpen ↗