Critique requested

David Reuteler <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

just for kicks here's my $23,000 seven touring bike in its s&s soft case

visi.comsandscase.jpgOpen ↗

Dear David,

Oh how I hate you!

Not for the bike, but for what I see in your picture. It makes me feel so stupid.

I'm guessing that those are lengths of foam pipe insulation, the easy-to-cut kind with the long slit
that slip snugly over hot-water pipes to keep the heat in . . .

. . . And over bike frame tubes to keep things from being bashed in shipping.

Wish I'd seen this clever trick before my neighbors asked me to help them pack their bikes for a
trip to Italy.

Just wait 'til next year!

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

David Damerell said:

Paul said:

Since there are many knowledgeable people hear I would like to pose a question to all the
"experts". Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to
climb and does competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

A Habanero. If you break it, you can mock the builder.

Hey....

(name withheld to protect the potentially guilty)

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

As I've said earlier in this thread, IF Seven consistently gets the fit right, then it may be
worth it for some people to cough up the extra dough.

And IF no cheaper competent framebuilders exist.

What difference does it make to a person who can afford it??????????/ Since I didn't base my
decision on money I could have lined up 100 Ti bikes with no knowledge of price and still chosen
the Seven.

If you had your heart set on a $1000 Bianchi and beside it was a comparable $990 DeVinci what would
you choose. You would choose the Bianchi wouldn't you? Just remember that the $10 difference in
price to you many be the same as the $2000 price difference to someone else.

I know I won't change your mind but when you either get more money or change your priorities you
will realize that life is too short to not buy what makes you happy. If buying a $30,000 bike makes
you happy then good for you. If buying a $50 bike makes you happy then good for in. In the end we're
all happy aren't we???

are you slow?????

you said you bought your bike because it was a bargain and it fit perfectly. I already told you that
I didn't base my buying decision on money because money wasn't an issue. I also told you it fit
perfectly. It looks like I had a better reason to buy my bike. I bought it because I wanted it. You
only bought yours because it was a bargain. Perhaps when you have more money you won't have to worry
about buying bargains and can buy the bike you really like. Because of my financial situation I
already bought the bike I really like. Whether the choice was good or bad I will have to live with
it but there is no need for you to be envious of my decision just like I won't be envious of you if
you ever beat me up a hill.

Quoted message said:

Around and around we go, where we stop nobody knows....

Paying cost for an overpriced bike is not necessarily a bargain. To the extent that your blather
has any determinate content it all, you seem to be suggesting that your bike was worth the money,
but you haven't ever articulated any reason why that I can see, except fit, and now you seem to
concede that you don't need to pay a lot of money to get fit. I give up.> > >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I paid $250 for the frame.

It has nothing to do with being less functional. How it any different than when a person keeps his
sports car in the garage when it rains or during winter?

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Reuteler said:

owning a nice bike and babying it (well, too much) is .. L - A - M - E

In particular, if it's too precious to ride all year round, it's demonstrably less functional than
a cheaper machine.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

I suggest your reread my message and tell me what is embarrassing about it.

Quoted message said:

"That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It means I have enough money to buy
what I want. That's also the reason I buy ASSOS clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason I buy
Tag Heuer instead of Casio. That's why I have a purebred dog instead of a mutt. If you are happy
with your junker bike, Sugoi clothing, Casio watch and mutt then all the more power to you but
please don't be jealous of someone who buys what they want."

Damn. I would embarrassed to put something like that in writing, even if I believed it. -- Jay
Beattie.

Paul <[email hidden]> wrote:
: It has nothing to do with being less functional. How it any different than when a person keeps his
: sports car in the garage when it rains or during winter?

because he has to walk to the grocery store in the rain?
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Paul said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and does
competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

ecossemoto.comthe bike.htmOpen ↗

Available with a full Ti frame for about $60K (!)

Reason? I quote:

"Displacement: 107 cu. in. (1753 cc)

Hp: 120 at rear wheel; sea level at 5800 rpm

Ft-lbs. of torque: 125 at rear wheel; sea level at 4000 rpm"

With a bike like that, you can climb fast enough to make your ears pop! And what better road racing
competition is there than trying to elude the police?

Chalo Colina

Paul said:

I suggest your reread my message and tell me what is embarrassing about it.

Oh, man. If you even have to ask, you're just never going to know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It means I have enough money to
buy what I want. That's also the reason I buy ASSOS clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason
I buy Tag Heuer instead of Casio. That's why I have a purebred dog instead of a mutt. If you are
happy with your junker bike, Sugoi clothing, Casio watch and mutt then all the more power to you
but please don't be jealous of someone who buys what they want."

Damn. I would embarrassed to put something like that in writing, even if I believed it.

Ditto, Jay, except that you're not clueless.

(Chalo) said:

Paul said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and
does competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

Well, now, to answer the question: I think you could do no better than a Habanero. It ain't
expensive, but you did say "price is no object- high or low." I'll bet that Mark would sell you one
for $2000 if that makes you feel better about it.

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As far as your ethical ideas on how much is too much go, they are bizzare and totally
wrong-headed.

I wonder if you would care to tell me where I asserted an ethical aspect to this?

I doubt you'd be able to comprehend the connection between "That bike is too much" and "To much,
for what?"

What you mean is that you cannot tell me where I asserted an ethical aspect. No surprise there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course it would, because if you're not a professional racer, that .5-1% change in the overall
weight is not meaningful.

Oh, well thank you God for telling me what my goals in life require. I don't have one those
expensive bikes you deem to be wicked, but supposing I was a very fit rich guy who wanted a
personal best on a particular hill climb,

You'd be a very foolish very fit rich guy, then, since if you got up that hill quicker by buying a
lighter bike, you'd never know if you'd actually improved your physical prowess.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see those with expensive bikes sneering at you about what you deem to be "meaningful".
You just have an envy problem.

Ah, yes, I am envious of people who have something I could buy if I wanted
it. That makes perfect sense.

You're right, it's worse than envy. At least with envy the person recognizes the difference between
good and better. What you have is a case of being mostly unconscious.

Ah, so now you resort to incoherent abuse; unremarkable, since I've shown what nonsense your "envy"
assertion is.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Jay Beattie said:

Be patient. You are dealing with many people in this news group who were born before 1970

November 1975, FYI.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Paul said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

As I've said earlier in this thread, IF Seven consistently gets the fit right, then it may be
worth it for some people to cough up the extra dough.

And IF no cheaper competent framebuilders exist.

What difference does it make to a person who can afford it??????????/

If you can afford it, it doesn't make any difference to you if you take money and burn it. That
doesn't mean that someone else who describes that as a waste of money is not correct.

Quoted message said:

If you had your heart set on a $1000 Bianchi and beside it was a comparable $990 DeVinci what would
you choose. You would choose the Bianchi wouldn't you?

I think (irrespective of price) I'd try and decide why my heart was set where it was - particularly
if I could find no better reason than "the bike shop (whose profit is a percentage of the price tag)
told me the most expensive one was best."

Quoted message said:

I know I won't change your mind but when you either get more money

I've already knocked this one on the head.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and does
competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

Well, now, to answer the question: I think you could do no better than a Habanero.

Seriously, I'd be inclined to agree. Having the builder read r.b.tech is a far more concrete
advantage that a couple of grams here and there.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Paul said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

In particular, if it's too precious to ride all year round, it's demonstrably less functional than
a cheaper machine.

It has nothing to do with being less functional.

Except inasmuch as it does not fulfil the function of providing transport in the rain.

Quoted message said:

How it any different than when a person keeps his sports car in the garage when it rains or
during winter?

Not at all. That sports car is then less functional than a car that may be driven all year round,
especially when the second car is effectively identical and costs half as much.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Do you or Mark honestly think that the quality of the Habanero is as good as a Seven Axiom?

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Chalo) said:

Paul said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and
does competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

Well, now, to answer the question: I think you could do no better than a Habanero. It ain't
expensive, but you did say "price is no object- high or low." I'll bet that Mark would sell you
one for $2000 if that makes you feel better about it.

David Damerell said:

Jay Beattie said:

Be patient. You are dealing with many people in this news group who were born before 1970

November 1975, FYI.

Damn! So much younger than me, and such a grouch already. I'll quit now.

James

(Tom Paterson) said:

From: "Paul":

(JFT wrote):

Quoted message said:

But the

Quoted message said:

attitude of too many people of "I've got the money, I want to ride

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

best" is lame. The ideal should be "I've got money, I want to be

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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best I can. I want to change myself." Not by possessing but by doing.

(Paul replied):

Quoted message said:

Very well said

Agreed well said, but if athleticism is not one's first priority,

My description could work well for other forms of cycling -- touring, commuting, etc. They're also
about doing, not owning.

Quoted message said:

then what is wrong with buying a high-end bike and hanging it on the wall?

Not much as long as you're honest enough to say so. To say it's jewelry. Not to claim it's a
better bike.

Quoted message said:

Speaking as a (former) qualified production mig/tig welder, the few

Sevens and

Quoted message said:

Serottas I've looked at closely were very nicely put together, a

level above

Quoted message said:

other Ti bikes I've seen.

If another Ti bike's joints doen't break, and the frame is straight, what does this mean? What value
it there to this?

JT

(Tom Paterson) said:

Frankly, carping about fancy bikes and fair weather riders shows a

tinge of

Quoted message said:

jealousy. "I can ride faster so I deserve that hot bike more than

that old

Quoted message said:

guy"-- how does that sentiment look in the light of day?

I don't have that sentiment. I have no desire to own a Seven (remarkable as it may be to the
materialists to understand).

I am, sometimes, comptemptuous because excess materialism and commercialism are destructive forces
(Sevens are just a tiny part of
it). That have a real impact on society and our collective well-being. In the big scheme of things,
excessively fancy bikes are not a big deal. But they still reflect a big problem in our society.

JT

Tim McNamara said:

(Chalo) said:

Paul said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and
does competitive road racing.

Price

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is no object - high or low

Well, now, to answer the question: I think you could do no better

than

Quoted message said:

a Habanero.

A butted ti tube is probably a tiny bit better. Whether it's worth the money is debateable, but
a reasonable argument could be made that if someone has a lot of money, it's reasonable to spend
it on that.

JT