Critique requested

Paul' from Bell Sympatico said:

Since there are many knowledgeable people hear I would like to pose a question to all the
"experts". Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb
and does competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

Please give your reason for making your choice.

A Seven, because they have the longest thread.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com My mind is making ashtrays in Dayton ...

Quoted message said:

Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb and does
competitive road racing.

Quoted message said:

Price is no object - high or low

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Please give your reason for making your choice.

A Spectrum, because they are made by Tom Kellogg and I grew up on their Corn Flakes.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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Well, the first question I would have is why did you narrow it down to "higher end" frames?

I have two Aluminum bikes (MTB and Road) which are $3000 and $4000. I wanted a Ti bike so that
really narrows it down. I don't know of many "cheap" Ti bikes in my area. I guess I could have
bought a cheap bike off the internet but I like the service I get from the LBS. I agree that there
are much more knowledgeable people here than there are at many bike shops but I trust the
"experts" at my bike shop much more than someone off the internet who I don't know. The guy I
bought this from has over 40 years experience in the business.

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To benefit from that, all you have to do is listen, pose questions and make statements that are
backed up by facts and observations. All you've said so far is that your bike is better because
it has a "higher end" reputation and because some bikeshop picked it out of a group of "higher
end" frames. >

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall saying that my bike is better because it has a "higher
end" reputation.

Well then what are you saying? You seem to take offense when people suggest you paid too much for
your bike, yet you haven't once told us what makes the bike so special. If you didn't think "higher
end" meant better, then why did you limit your search to "higher end" bikes? If all you want to
prove here is that you have money to burn and can do whatever you like with it, then I don't
disagree but I also don't see any reason why your opinions on bikes should matter to any of us.

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So how did you make your decision on your bike? Please tell us all so

we

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can be more educated in our next purchase

I got a bargain on a steel touring frame (Koga-Miyata) that fits me perfectly.

And how much did you pay for this "bargain" bike? I am sure you could have found a bike sitting at
the end of someone's driveway that would have fit just as good and it would have cost you $0. Why
did you feel the need to purchase this "higher end" steel touring frame?

ps "higher end" is a relative term

I paid $250 for the frame.

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Well then what are you saying? You seem to take offense when people suggest you paid too much
for your bike, yet you haven't once told us what makes the bike so special. If you didn't
think "higher end" meant better, then why did you limit your search to "higher end" bikes? If
all you want to prove here is that you have money to burn and can do whatever you like with
it, then I don't disagree but I also don't see any reason why your opinions on bikes should
matter to any of us.

I don't expect that my reasons for purchasing a Seven will change anyones opinion. I would hope that
anyone making a choice on a bike would not base their decision on what some anonymous person on a
newsgroup says, I also don't see why you feel your opinions on by bike purchase should matter to
anyone else on the newsgroup.

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I got a bargain on a steel touring frame (Koga-Miyata) that fits me perfectly.

And how much did you pay for this "bargain" bike? I am sure you could

have

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found a bike sitting at the end of someone's driveway that would have

fit

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just as good and it would have cost you $0. Why did you feel the need

to

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purchase this "higher end" steel touring frame?

ps "higher end" is a relative term

I paid $250 for the frame.

It sounds to me like you based your decision on price. Considering that I paid cost for my bike (it
pays to have friends who own bike stores) I guess I also got a bargain didn't I? If you really want
to know why I bought my Seven it was because I got a bargain and a perfect fit. Sounds like I based
my decision exactly the same as you did?

Paul said:

I would hope that anyone making a choice on a bike would not base their decision on what some
anonymous person on a newsgroup says,

If what they said is right, the fact that they are anonymous and posting is usenet is not
that relevant.

On your request for a recommendation of "the best" titianium bike, with cost as no object, I have to
say you asked the wrong question. Or really a question that points up the extent to which you've
bought into materialism.

Cycling is an activity. It's about doing things. With a lot of money you for sure should get an
expensive, very light, very well-designed bike that fits you just right. There are dozens of those.
Sevens, and some others can be custom-built, so if you have odd proportions, that could make the
bike even better. If you don't, it's no advantage, even though you might take pleasure in possessing
something built "just for you."

But frankly, when you get up high enough in the cycling equipment, it just doesn't matter. And in
fact the little details of why a Seven or a Litespeed or a Merckx or whatever are better than
something else are a distraction. Cycling is about doing.

If you really have unlimited funds, the question should be "how can I be a better
cyclist/racer/tourist/whatever the case may be." Sure buying a good bike is part of it. But $3K for
a Litespeed versus $4.5K for a custom Seven pales in comparison to a lot of other things you could
spend money on that would make you a better cyclist. Like good coaching. Good underwear. A spare
bike with fenders for riding in the cold rain. Massage. More reading. Trips to training camps. Or
even some cheap things like just planning your traning more and writing your goals down.

Maybe you do some or all of these things. Great. I hope so. But the attitude of too many people of
"I've got the money, I want to ride the best" is lame. The ideal should be "I've got money, I want
to be the best I can. I want to change myself." Not by possessing but by doing.

JT

Quoted message said:

Maybe you do some or all of these things. Great. I hope so. But the attitude of too many people of
"I've got the money, I want to ride the best" is lame. The ideal should be "I've got money, I want
to be the best I can. I want to change myself." Not by possessing but by doing.

JT

Very well said

From: "Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]>

Hey, this "mouse-potato" thing is catching on!

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It's kind of an odd time for this thread, too, what with the onset of

winter and

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yucky riding conditions. If I got a bike as expensive as a Seven now, I'd

be

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afraid to ride it until the weather cleared out in the spring. That would

suck,

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staring at a bike all winter.

That reminds me of bicyclists I really can't understand. I can't understand cyclists who own
something like a Seven (or Merlin, etc.) and don't own another bike. Therefore, they tend not to
ride unless the weather is dry in the summer.

This is, I think, relatively rare -- but I bet many of us know at least one person like this.

reply address: MikeKr at AOL dot COM

In rec.bicycles.tech Mike Kruger <[email hidden]> wrote:
: That reminds me of bicyclists I really can't understand. I can't understand cyclists who own
: something like a Seven (or Merlin, etc.) and don't own another bike. Therefore, they tend not to
: ride unless the weather is dry in the summer.

owning a nice bike and babying it (well, too much) is ..

L - A - M - E

it may be "art" but it's still a bike. it's supposed to be functional.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Paul said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe you do some or all of these things. Great. I hope so. But the attitude of too many people
of "I've got the money, I want to ride the best" is lame. The ideal should be "I've got money, I
want to be the best I can. I want to change myself." Not by possessing but by doing.

Very well said

Jeez, what are you guys- communists or something? Sheesh! This sort of thinking will be the
ruination of Truth, Justice and the American Way! It MUST be stamped out! You WILL buy, buy, buy!

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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You show me a

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person who doesn't care what the other people thinks and I will show you a person with a Seven
Axiom

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As far as your descriptions go, though, you could be describing me. All

my

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bikes are steel, some of them might even have some rust. I wear plain black cycling shorts, a
plain (usually wool) jersey most of the time and I don't shave my legs. Never did, even when I
raced. I live in a 100 year old 1200 square foot house- close enough to a shack- and drive a
1990 Volvo 240- close enough to a [censored]. I haven't bought a *new* bike since 1996. I don't
give a rat's ass if other people look at my bikes and glaze over with envy. In fact, I'd rather
they didn't and then they won't be tempted to steal it.

Fair enough. I guess I now have to show you a person with a Seven. If

you

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look very closely the owner is standing behind the tree.

sevencycles.comgalleryCloseUp.htmlOpen ↗

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rtucci.jpg&Michael%20V.%20from%20Ny%20shows%20off%20his%20Seven%20Axiom.

ps that's not my bike

Just out of interest, this was a bit odd:

(from the seven photo site)

tinyurl.comr91vOpen ↗

I've never heard of S & S couplings before, and cutting a $10000 bike in half seems kinda
sacreligious...

Tim

In rec.bicycles.misc Tim Jones <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Just out of interest, this was a bit odd: (from the seven photo site) tinyurl.comr91vOpen ↗ I've
: never heard of S & S couplings before, and cutting a $10000 bike in half seems kinda
: sacreligious...

just for kicks here's my $23,000 seven touring bike in its s&s soft case

visi.comsandscase.jpgOpen ↗

fresh off the amtrak and sans front wheel. i made a photo step-by-step guide to assembly. useful to
me (it's pretty particuliar) and put a copy in the case should some airport security guy actually be
helpful enuf to use it.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well then what are you saying? You seem to take offense when people suggest you paid too much
for your bike, yet you haven't once told us what makes the bike so special. If you didn't think
"higher end" meant better, then why did you limit your search to "higher end" bikes? If all you
want to prove here is that you have money to burn and can do whatever you like with it, then I
don't disagree but I also don't see any reason why your opinions on bikes should matter to any
of us.

I don't expect that my reasons for purchasing a Seven will change anyones opinion. I would hope
that anyone making a choice on a bike would not base their decision on what some anonymous person
on a newsgroup says, I also don't see why you feel your opinions on by bike purchase should matter
to anyone else on the newsgroup.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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> I got a bargain on a steel touring frame (Koga-Miyata) that fits me perfectly.
And how much did you pay for this "bargain" bike? I am sure you could

have

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found a bike sitting at the end of someone's driveway that would have

fit

Quoted message said:

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just as good and it would have cost you $0. Why did you feel the need

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

purchase this "higher end" steel touring frame?

ps "higher end" is a relative term

I paid $250 for the frame.

It sounds to me like you based your decision on price. Considering that I paid cost for my bike
(it pays to have friends who own bike stores) I guess I also got a bargain didn't I? If you really
want to know why I bought my Seven it was because I got a bargain and a perfect fit. Sounds like I
based my decision exactly the same as you did?

Around and around we go, where we stop nobody knows....

Paying cost for an overpriced bike is not necessarily a bargain. To the extent that your blather has
any determinate content it all, you seem to be suggesting that your bike was worth the money, but
you haven't ever articulated any reason why that I can see, except fit, and now you seem to concede
that you don't need to pay a lot of money to get fit. I give up.

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>FYI: I have a well-paid job with a large computer company; I do not own a motor car or have
>children. Don't give me that [censored] about my own funding limitations when I'm rude about
>overpriced bikes.

What's that got to do with it? For that matter, you're engaged in a mutual [censored]-kissing exercise
with some guy you don't even know;

No,

Yes. You don't know him, you're engaged in a mutual [censored]-kissing exercise.

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bike. I think it's great that bike manufacturers are making such high-tech bikes,

Slapping a $4000 price tag on something does not make it more high-tech.

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As far as your ethical ideas on how much is too much go, they are bizzare and totally wrong-headed.

I wonder if you would care to tell me where I asserted an ethical aspect to this?

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Depends. Does that extra $500, or $800, effect any meaningful change in functionality?

Well that's a question you should have asked at the beginning--if the technical side was really
what you cared about. But it would be pointless for anyone to try to prove that for you, the 1-2lbs
drop in weight was "meaningful."

Of course it would, because if you're not a professional racer, that .5-1% change in the overall
weight is not meaningful.

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Maybe for you it's not. For other riders it is. Perhaps a custom fit isn't something you
care about.

Perhaps it is; but, of course, I can get a custom machine for very much less than $4,000.

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I don't see those with expensive bikes sneering at you about what you deem to be "meaningful". You
just have an envy problem.

Ah, yes, I am envious of people who have something I could buy if I wanted
it. That makes perfect sense.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Gary Young said:

As I've said earlier in this thread, IF Seven consistently gets the fit right, then it may be worth
it for some people to cough up the extra dough.

And IF no cheaper competent framebuilders exist.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Paul said:

Since there are many knowledgeable people hear I would like to pose a question to all the
"experts". Which is the very best Titanium bike on the market for a 150lb person who likes to climb
and does competitive road racing. Price is no object - high or low

A Habanero. If you break it, you can mock the builder.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

David Reuteler said:

owning a nice bike and babying it (well, too much) is .. L - A - M - E

In particular, if it's too precious to ride all year round, it's demonstrably less functional than a
cheaper machine.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KYfjb.139301$%h1.138198@sccrnsc02...

Quoted message said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>FYI: I have a well-paid job with a large computer company; I do

not own

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a

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>motor car or have children. Don't give me that [censored] about my own

funding

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>limitations when I'm rude about overpriced bikes.
Oh, so you'd prefer to be given a hard time about your arrogance in presuming to know whether
this or that bike costs too much to be

worth it

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to

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some guy on the internet you don't even know?

What's that got to do with it? For that matter, you're engaged in a

mutual

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[censored]-kissing exercise with some guy you don't even know;

No, I just find it incredible how often people in these cycling forums change the subject from
bike quality to the ethics of buying an

"expensive"

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bike. I think it's great that bike manufacturers are making such

high-tech

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bikes, and it's great that so many people can afford them, and I hope

this

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"conspicuous" consumption keeps increasing since it drives up the

quality

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and affordability of all bicycles. If anything is ethical, it's in

working

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hard enough to be able to purchase one of these dream machines, and in

being

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able to create one.

As far as your ethical ideas on how much is too much go, they are

bizzare

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and totally wrong-headed.

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So tell us Mr. God of the Cycling Economy, how much exactly should

we all

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be

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paying for our bikes? Is $700 overpriced? How about $1200? $2000?

Depends. Does that extra $500, or $800, effect any meaningful change

in

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functionality?

Well that's a question you should have asked at the beginning--if the technical side was really
what you cared about. But it would be

pointless

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for anyone to try to prove that for you, the 1-2lbs drop in weight was "meaningful." Maybe for you
it's not. For other riders it is. Perhaps

a

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custom fit isn't something you care about. Others like knowing that

their

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bike's fit is optimal. Some people are happy on a Huffy. I find my old Peugot frustrating to ride
now that I've been riding my new LeMond.

Other

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people would be quite happy with that old bike.

That's why they sell a wide range of bikes--everyone is different.

I don't see those with expensive bikes sneering at you about what you

deem

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to be "meaningful". You just have an envy problem.

Be patient. You are dealing with many people in this news group who were born before 1970 and
remember a time when people were offended by pretentiousness and conspicuous consumption. These old
people are considerably out of step with the modern world and should be ignored. By the way, I have
an Eight bicycle, which is far superior to a Seven. I also have a Campagnolo Superissimo Croce
D'Aune Record Extravagana dust cloth to keep it clean. Many people are jealous of my bicycle and
dust cloth, but I have learned to ignore them. -- Jay Beattie.

"Paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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Maybe you do some or all of these things. Great. I hope so. But

the

Quoted message said:

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attitude of too many people of "I've got the money, I want to ride

the

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best" is lame. The ideal should be "I've got money, I want to be

the

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Quoted message said:

best I can. I want to change myself." Not by possessing but by doing.

JT

Very well said

What? Is this the same Paul that said:

"That's not what I said at all so don't put words in my mouth. It means I have enough money to buy
what I want. That's also the reason I buy ASSOS clothing instead of Sugoi. that's the reason I buy
Tag Heuer instead of Casio. That's why I have a purebred dog instead of a mutt. If you are happy
with your junker bike, Sugoi clothing, Casio watch and mutt then all the more power to you but
please don't be jealous of someone who buys what they want."

Damn. I would embarrassed to put something like that in writing, even if I believed it. --
Jay Beattie.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As far as your ethical ideas on how much is too much go, they are bizzare and totally
wrong-headed.

I wonder if you would care to tell me where I asserted an ethical aspect to this?

I doubt you'd be able to comprehend the connection between "That bike is too much" and "To much,
for what?"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends. Does that extra $500, or $800, effect any meaningful change in functionality?

Well that's a question you should have asked at the beginning--if the technical side was really
what you cared about. But it would be pointless for anyone to try to prove that for you, the
1-2lbs drop in weight was "meaningful."

Of course it would, because if you're not a professional racer, that .5-1% change in the overall
weight is not meaningful.

Oh, well thank you God for telling me what my goals in life require.

I don't have one those expensive bikes you deem to be wicked, but supposing I was a very fit rich
guy who wanted a personal best on a particular hill climb, I'm sure I'd not think twice about
shooting for something as light as possible--regardless of whether I was racing.

Quoted message said:

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I don't see those with expensive bikes sneering at you about what you

deem

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to be "meaningful". You just have an envy problem.

Ah, yes, I am envious of people who have something I could buy if I wanted
it. That makes perfect sense.

You're right, it's worse than envy. At least with envy the person recognizes the difference between
good and better. What you have is a case of being mostly unconscious.

Shayne Wissler

In rec.bicycles.tech Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Be patient. You are dealing with many people in this news group who were born before 1970
[snip]
: These old people are considerably out of step with the modern world and should be ignored.

oh, god. it's official: i'm old. i was born in 1969. i've just become used to being 30 .. i'm really
ok with it. 40, i'll deal i guess.

: By the way, I have an Eight bicycle, which is far superior to a Seven. I also have a Campagnolo
: Superissimo Croce D'Aune Record Extravagana dust cloth to keep it clean. Many people are jealous
: of my bicycle and dust cloth, but I have learned to ignore them. -- Jay Beattie.

i was riding my seven in minneapolis, minnesota a few months ago and two local high school
girls pulled up next to me (i was making a left in the left turn lane), rolled down their
window and said ..

"five, maybe six. but not seven."

they were, i'm afraid, refering to me.

man.

no fru-fru frame makes up for that.

personally i think i'm holding up just fine.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]