CTL building strategies

[daveryanwyoming]

Some recent discussions here and on the Google wattage lists got me thinking about approaches to building training base during winter build cycles. A year ago I was still using a preplanned work/rest cycle ala Friel with 3 training weeks followed by an easier rest week. I abandoned that approach mid winter because I felt I was always playing catchup after that rest week both in terms of regaining training base and having to loosen up my blocked up legs before I could resume decent training. The introduction of the WKO+ Performance Manager and discussions here including some urging by Tom Anhalt(thanks Tom) changed the way I manage training load and how I look at work vs. rest.

I'm in my 12th week of winter training, almost entirely indoors on the trainer again supplemented by some XC ski skating and I decided to compare progress this year vs. a year ago. The attached files are screenshots of my PMC for the first 12 weeks of last season using a preplanned work/rest approach vs. the last 12 weeks using a combination of listening to my body and watching the PMC curves.

All in all I've brought my CTL higher with less effort and haven't had to regain so much lost ground after rest weeks. My CTL ramp is steady and I no longer dig deep holes followed by rest weeks. I'm halfway through indoor winter training(assuming a normal spring, not a given around here) and I'm still psyched to train.

Sure, I still get tired or have off days. But I look at workouts as falling into three general categories:

• If the TSS of a workout is substantially above my current CTL it's definitely training and will increase my overall fatigue
• If the TSS of a workout is near my current CTL it's maintaining and will usually bring about a bit of a TSB rebound
• If the TSS of a workout is substantially below my current CTL it's a "soft" workout and will bring about a bigger TSB rebound and lead to freshness.

IOW, I don't always take days completely off if I'm getting a bit worked. A couple of "soft" days with TSS roughly half of my current CTL even if they're Tempo or low SST rides can lead to freshness and get me ready for more training. These soft days might be half an hour of Tempo riding with a short warmup and cooldown and they generally leave me feeling pretty good. At most a couple of days of these get me ready for more serious training without the blocked up legs of a traditional rest week. Sure I still take days completely off, but not very often and usually when work or family obligations get in the way of training. After all, CTL represents a very long term average training load, roughly what your body has adapted to after 3 or more months of training. It shouldn't be too hard to do a steady base building workout at half that level.

I'm not suggesting this as a year round protocol and expect I'll go back to more conventional rest days when I get outside in the spring and move to higher end workouts. But for base building, especially for those of us stuck indoors on trainers it's an alternative approach to managing training load.

Food for thought,
-Dave

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

I think this is very interesting, as are all your posts. I've been doing something similar but not for as long!

I have couple of questions as I'm a bit concerned as CTL isn't everything, it's surely just a number?

1. You have a higher CTL now than you did 12 months ago, does this definitely mean you are fitter/stronger, is your FTP higher now than at the same time last year?
2. Do you feel you "miss out" at all in terms if fitness using this method as you are not doing the much higher TSS score workouts, are these hard workouts therefore not "in your legs" as they were before?

It just worries me whether a higher CTL necessarily means better performances but I'm all for the method if it gets me fitter and faster with less work!

I just don't want to get drawn into a "CTL score is all" way of thinking and then find 90 miles into an event next year that I've short changed myself when I hit a big climb!

Thanks.

PB

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...You have a higher CTL now than you did 12 months ago, does this definitely mean you are fitter/stronger, is your FTP higher now than at the same time last year?...

Yes, roughly 30 watts higher from 3 minutes to 30 minutes than this time last year.

...Do you feel you "miss out" at all in terms if fitness using this method as you are not doing the much higher TSS score workouts, are these hard workouts therefore not "in your legs" as they were before?

I'm not worried about that, but I think I see your point. I guess it's debatable whether say a 4 hour ride followed by a rest day is better than back to back 2 hour rides. I switched to a steadier approach mid winter last year and certainly didn't suffer from endurance issues so I'm not too concerned about "missing" the big TSS rides prior to resting.

...It just worries me whether a higher CTL necessarily means better performances but I'm all for the method if it gets me fitter and faster with less work!...

I'm not actually saying it's less work. Looking at my total weekly TSS, it's actually more work. It's just that the work is steadier without such big peaks followed by low valleys.

...I just don't want to get drawn into a "CTL score is all" way of thinking ...

CTL is definitely not all and I sure wouldn't want to ignore power building and specific weekly and season long training mix. But when combined with a good training blend working the systems appropriate to your needs and goals I think CTL is an incredibly good metric for tracking training load.

-Dave

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi Dave

Thanks again, I'm on board, gonna stick with it, my problem with the peaks and troughs approach is getting off the couch after the trough! If you have any spare CTL going cheap let me know

PB

 

[frenchyge]

The introduction of the WKO+ Performance Manager and discussions here including some urging by Tom Anhalt(thanks Tom) changed the way I manage training load and how I look at work vs. rest.

Hi Dave,
Same thing for me last year. I never adopted the build/rest approach because life always seems to impose rest weeks into my schedule via work or family commitments. However, last year I did use the PMC to modify my approach to more of a ramping effort like the one you seem to have also arrived at. I really liked the difference it made last year and am using it again this year.

Sure, I still get tired or have off days. But I look at workouts as falling into three general categories:

• If the TSS of a workout is substantially above my current CTL it's definitely training and will increase my overall fatigue
• If the TSS of a workout is near my current CTL it's maintaining and will usually bring about a bit of a TSB rebound
• If the TSS of a workout is substantially below my current CTL it's a "soft" workout and will bring about a bigger TSB rebound and lead to freshness.

I have to say that I haven't gone quite this far with it, and here's why: in my mind there's training and there's recovery. With TSS and CTL it's possible to use math to blend the two (extreme example: a 4hr L1 ride for 200 TSS), but I think that can muddy the PMC picture if it occurs very often, and so I try to avoid it. A borderline case might be the 30-min Tempo 'soft' ride that you mentioned. While that does bolster CTL better than a big goose-egg for the day, I try to consider the intensity-duration relationship and make sure each workout stands on its own for specific training benefit before I will incorporate it into my routine. If I can't do a quality workout, then I take the zero.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you here, just showing the slightly different approach I use. As you say, my workout routine has also changed to include more frequent 1-2 hr rides per week (during the winter, at least), and fewer 3-4 hr rides with rest days, which I think just makes more sense and is more conducive to stationary trainers. Longer rides come back when the weather improves, but by then my CTL ramp will be to the point that I'm looking for bigger TSS rides in the week and can tolerate it without reducing the number of rides per week.

Food for thought,

Good thoughts.

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi Dave

Thanks again, I'm on board, gonna stick with it, my problem with the peaks and troughs approach is getting off the couch after the trough! If you have any spare CTL going cheap let me know

PB

 

[acoggan]

Yes, roughly 30 watts higher from 3 minutes to 30 minutes than this time last year.

That's the bottom line, now isn't it? Congratulations on the improvement!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... With TSS and CTL it's possible to use math to blend the two (extreme example: a 4hr L1 ride for 200 TSS), ...I try to consider the intensity-duration relationship and make sure each workout stands on its own for specific training benefit before I will incorporate it into my routine. If I can't do a quality workout, then I take the zero....

No argument there. Those training/rest guidelines are entirely in the context of early season base and specifically using SST to build that base. No question you could do a low TSS L6 workout that wouldn't be restful or a marathon L1 workout that wouldn't offer a lot of training benefit regardless of the its TSS.

Your point about specific training benefit trumping TSS is really good. CTL alone won't do much, heck that's what I got back in the LSD days even if I didn't know how to quantify it.

-Dave

 

[Piotr]

Dave,
Thanks for starting this thread. Regarding our Wattage discussion, here's what this season looks like for me. I might have presented my situation as more dire than it really is, although I definitely can't compete with what you've accomplished. All that - TSB on your chart makes it look very unusual. As you can see I'm doing more of what you did last year. The sharpest drop in my CTL was actually due to having taken a 5 day trip (no bike), which I neglected to mention. I'm actually on a pretty good upswing, meaning that I feel good, and I'm afraid if I complain too much about my CTL I'll jinx it.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... here's what this season looks like for me. .... I'm actually on a pretty good upswing, meaning that I feel good, ...

The 5 day trip comes into that category of "life interruptions" not much you can do about those they happen to all of us. As for the fatigue breaks, your TSB never gets real low and your ATL doesn't really get all that high. The only thing that jumps out is that your CTL ramp rate during those build weeks is ~ 5 TSS/day/week which isn't extreme but might be a bit higher than you can comfortably sustain. You also have your ATL peaks just before you take time off. Not a bad idea if you're planning a 3 week and rest pattern, but since you've said those are unplanned rests driven by fatigue I wonder if you're pushing a bit too hard in those cycles. Backing off a bit in terms of either weekly TSS or maybe backing down on intensity a bit will lower your ramp rate and might allow you to avoid big CTL drops every few weeks. It doesn't mean you can't take rest weeks, but maybe not quite so restful with a bit of moderate maintenance work before resuming your builds.

Just some thoughts from looking at your graphs. I've moved away from a preplanned rest week strategy, but others use it with great results. The bigger concern would be that you haven't planned those rests but are driven to them based on undue fatigue. Even if that works physically I'd be worried about the mental impact of exhausting myself every few weeks, might make it hard to sustain training for the long haul.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Piotr]

As for the fatigue breaks, your TSB never gets real low and your ATL doesn't really get all that high.

That's why it was so frustrating for me. Seeing the same thing I had decided to do some breakthrough workouts and those are what I think really hurt me.

The only thing that jumps out is that your CTL ramp rate during those build weeks is ~ 5 TSS/day/week which isn't extreme but might be a bit higher than you can comfortably sustain.

I'm not sure where you're seeing that. The biggest 3 week difference is of about 9 CTL points. That's only 3/week. Another point of frustration and reason why I did those breakthrough workouts which hurt me.

I decided to back off of trying to do 3 x 20, 3 x 30 min. I'm much more happy now doing 1.5 - 2 hrs of Sweet Spot or Tempo, or 4 x 10 min at 100% FTP.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...I'm not sure where you're seeing that. The biggest 3 week difference is of about 9 CTL points. That's only 3/week. ....

I just eyeballed the chart, guess I didn't do a great job

Yeah, I can understand your frustration. Not sure what to say, but I'd start by looking carefully at the workouts in the final week leading up to those fatigue breaks. Might be a clue there in terms of intensity, frequency, duration, work stresses, sleep patterns, nutrition, etc.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

As you can see I'm doing more of what you did last year. The sharpest drop in my CTL was actually due to having taken a 5 day trip (no bike), which I neglected to mention. I'm actually on a pretty good upswing, meaning that I feel good, and I'm afraid if I complain too much about my CTL I'll jinx it.

That PMC looks strange to me, although I can't quite put my finger on why. Are you carrying ride data forward from last year, or using seed values to start the portion of the chart you posted? Also, what kind of weekly IFs are you seeing? Default time constants?

Would you mind reposting that with the daily TSS values shown? You can turn TSB into a line and then add TSS as a bar series in another color. Choose, say, 200 best values so that it shows them all.

In the interest of sharing, here's what I have so far this year. As you can see, I'm building from a *much* lower value than either you or Dave, so it's not really worth hitting it hard off the bat. As the CTL comes up I will continue to add ride days in regular fashion to get my weekly TSS goals. Lowest TSB is -46, and that's from a weekend that was too nice to stay indoors -- I ended up on a pair of long team rides. The big TSS days are outdoor rides in decent weather, and my indoor rides tend to range between 90-140 TSS.

 

[Piotr]

That PMC looks strange to me, although I can't quite put my finger on why. Are you carrying ride data forward from last year, or using seed values to start the portion of the chart you posted? Also, what kind of weekly IFs are you seeing? Default time constants?

Would you mind reposting that with the daily TSS values shown? You can turn TSB into a line and then add TSS as a bar series in another color. Choose, say, 200 best values so that it shows them all.

I'm currently at work (working intermittently ), so I don't have my numbers in front of me. I'll post my chart as you requested tomorrow. My new chart reads values from "This Season" and I used seed values based on the previous day. I actually have another PMC that shows all dates since I started riding with PM ("Custom Date through Today") and the part of the graph for this season looks identical.

Thanks for taking interest.

Edit: FYI, I didn't really take any time off in the fall. My CTL has been falling steadily since May and, when I attempted one last build in September I got sick for a week. I felt really fresh in October and excited about the new season, so no real break.

 

[Alex Simmons]

I'm currently at work (working intermittently ), so I don't have my numbers in front of me. I'll post my chart as you requested tomorrow. My new chart reads values from "This Season" and I used seed values based on the previous day. I actually have another PMC that shows all dates since I started riding with PM ("Custom Date through Today") and the part of the graph for this season looks identical.

Thanks for taking interest.

Edit: FYI, I didn't really take any time off in the fall. My CTL has been falling steadily since May and, when I attempted one last build in September I got sick for a week. I felt really fresh in October and excited about the new season, so no real break.

There is no need to seed anything other than the chart that starts at your first power meter file (unless there is only a few weeks of data up to that point, in which case you may as well include those dates into this season).

 

[Alex Simmons]

I'm not suggesting this as a year round protocol and expect I'll go back to more conventional rest days when I get outside in the spring and move to higher end workouts. But for base building, especially for those of us stuck indoors on trainers it's an alternative approach to managing training load.

Food for thought,
-Dave

Yeah - nice post.

 

[Terry Ferguson]

There is no need to seed anything other than the chart that starts at your first power meter file (unless there is only a few weeks of data up to that point, in which case you may as well include those dates into this season).

Very interesting - thank you. I did not realize that the PCM chart used the pevious data to determine where to start. I thought that it would start at zero just like if there was no previous data. BTW - Entering the starting values of the day that you start does give the exact same numbers and graph as entering zeros. - TF

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

I've attached my PMC for the last few months and would value any advice or input at all.

My current CTL is 62.4 which I've been steadily building at a rate of about 3 per week on a mixed diet of 2x20 minute SST and 60 minute L3 rides during the week, a longer L3 ride on a Saturday and a long L2 ride on a Sunday. I've adopted the no "formal" rest weeks strategy for the last 4 weeks or so and have ended up I feel with a more structured approach. I'm hoping that in the Spring I will end up better than I was last Spring, that's the plan!

Anyway, I had a bit of a setback last night and your thoughts would be appreciated. On 06.11.2007 I did my first FTP test using the exact recipe from the bible, I averaged 308W for the 20 minutes making my FTP at the time 292W. 2 months having passed I planned another FTP last night and during the 5 minute full on effort I did Ok but was struggling to hold the power I had managed 2 months ago but did raise it by 10W to 352W. When it came to the 20 minute TT I held my previous FTP initially thinking I'd be there or thereabouts and I was planning to increase the power if I could but I just crashed out and couldn't continue, I was unable to come close to my test of 2 months ago, it just didn't have what was needed in my legs, or anywhere else for that matter.

So, this was dispiriting, am I now less fit that I was in spite of 2 months of solid work or have I just lost my top end from the end of last year?

All advice greatly appreciated.

PBUK

 

[frenchyge]

So, this was dispiriting, am I now less fit that I was in spite of 2 months of solid work or have I just lost my top end from the end of last year?

I think asking for better fitness in January than you had in June is a pretty tall order. I'd suggest that your tests should measure where you are rather than trying to beat a previous target and failing to complete the test at all. If your tested FTP is lower now, then so be it, but that's less discouraging than not even being able to complete the test and having to give up. Keep working.

Make sure you're rested when you attempt the test next.

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

I think asking for better fitness in January than you had in June is a pretty tall order. I'd suggest that your tests should measure where you are rather than trying to beat a previous target and failing to complete the test at all. If your tested FTP is lower now, then so be it, but that's less discouraging than not even being able to complete the test and having to give up. Keep working. Make sure you're rested when you attempt the test next.

I'm sure you are right, unrealistic expectations based on ignorance. Sorry to have misled you with the date though, I'm in the UK and my last test was on 6th November 2007 not June, I forgot to switch the day and month.

Regards.

PBUK