Deal with devil, get horns?

[Luke]

In article <[email protected]>,
Andrew F Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> One thing to note, is that the Mercier guy probably has no idea what
> the geometry is. They are Taiwan frames that they buy and slap their
> stickers on, so unless he goes to the box, opens it, and takes a
> measurement - he probably doesn't know. I'm pretty sure that where
> ever that guy is sitting, there's no assembled boxes close. More
> likely he's at home with a warehouse full of bikes somewhere that he
> ships out all over the country and to a handful of shops that have
> decided to carry their bikes.
>

Even so, that doesn't justify such a response. If direct access to the
bikes is not possible, do you really think that whoever sent those
emails lacks the resources to obtain the desired specs? As the rep
understands the concept of email he could easily have fired off a few
electrons to those in the know with less effort than that expended to
fashion his counter-productive reply.

Assuming your scenario applies, it would, at worst, require a brief
email to the client assuring him that the info is pending. No, I'd
attribute the refusal to be forthcoming to muddleheaded policy.

Luke

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:.
>
> Scott: It's not in their best interest to "put their best-foot forward."
> They make money (quite a bit of it) at the prices they sell the bikes for
> primarily because they *don't* offer support. Warranty? Lifetime! Just
> return it to any Mercier dealer. Fine, if live in metropolitan Texas,
> otherwise a very long road trip. Help in sizing the bike? The problem there
> is that, once you begin to help a customer, you're trapped. They're going to
> keep coming back with more questions, looking for more advice. That's the
> way it works. At the retail end, that's a good thing, keeps the customer
> coming back for more goodies etc.
>
> At Mercier's end, it's a distraction that keeps them from selling their
> *only* product. The time they spend with someone on the phone or email
> discussing various details is time they don't have to sell bikes to other
> people who don't ask such questions, but buy because the product is cheap.
> As long as they have a supply of the latter customers (wanting cheap
> product), they'll always short-change those who cost them more time,
> resulting in fewer sales to the more-profitable clientele. That's business
> at that end of the game.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>

Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
for?

 

[Luke]

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:


> Isn't it funny that when a bike shop/bike maker person actually tells
> someone the truth and tries to dissuade them of a foolish myth that
> they are thought of as bad. If the question asker had asked if the
> bike was stiff yet comfortable and Mercier had said that is BS and no
> way to buy a bike, would you think Mercier was bad? What if the
> question asker had asked if the bike was aerodynamic and would make
> them minutes faster and Mercier had said the bike is irrelevant for
> that, would you think they were bad? I take it you think all bike
> shop people should just go along with the customers BS and reinforce
> the preconceived BS the customer has with more BS. It is what most
> bike shops do.

But if the inquirer harbors no foolish myths, and poses a simple
question having relevance to him, why not just answer it?

Luke

 

[Callistus Valerius]

>
> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> for?

I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.

 

[[email protected]]

Callistus Valerius wrote:
> >
> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> > for?
>
> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.


The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?

 

[RonSonic]

On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> >
>> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
>> > for?
>>
>> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
>> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
>> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
>> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
>> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>
>
>The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
>stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
>but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
>$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
>difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?

They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can find who has
to answer for how the bike works for you. In this particular case, it comes with
a clear and perfect answer to the question "which size best fits me." It also
comes with tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.

For a lot of people that is worth every dime.

For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching anyway or will
put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok the experience and then unload
it on ebay, it might not be.

Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding all those
different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.

Ron

 

[[email protected]]

RonSonic wrote:
> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >Callistus Valerius wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> >> > for?
> >>
> >> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
> >> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
> >> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
> >> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
> >> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
> >
> >
> >The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
> >stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
> >but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
> >$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
> >difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?
>
> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can find who has
> to answer for how the bike works for you. In this particular case, it comes with
> a clear and perfect answer to the question "which size best fits me." It also
> comes with tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
>
> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>
> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching anyway or will
> put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok the experience and then unload
> it on ebay, it might not be.
>
> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding all those
> different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>
> Ron

Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can pay
$690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is the
"advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
and earn their business if they want to survive.

 

[Vee]

[email protected] wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
> > On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> > >> > for?
> > >>
> > >> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
> > >> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
> > >> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
> > >> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
> > >> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
> > >
> > >
> > >The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
> > >stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
> > >but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
> > >$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
> > >difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?
> >
> > They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can find who has
> > to answer for how the bike works for you. In this particular case, it comes with
> > a clear and perfect answer to the question "which size best fits me." It also
> > comes with tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
> >
> > For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
> >
> > For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching anyway or will
> > put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok the experience and then unload
> > it on ebay, it might not be.
> >
> > Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding all those
> > different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
> >
> > Ron
>
> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can pay
> $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
> using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is the
> "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
> ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
> are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
> the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
> and earn their business if they want to survive.

Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
that they are not?

I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
technology, etc. by shopping online? My limited experience with
novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary mistakes.

-Vee

 

[[email protected]]

Vee wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > RonSonic wrote:
> > > On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Callistus Valerius wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> > > >> > for?
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a little
> > > >> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora levers,
> > > >> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta wheels
> > > >> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike, and
> > > >> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
> > > >stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
> > > >but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
> > > >$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
> > > >difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?
> > >
> > > They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can find who has
> > > to answer for how the bike works for you. In this particular case, it comes with
> > > a clear and perfect answer to the question "which size best fits me." It also
> > > comes with tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
> > >
> > > For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
> > >
> > > For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching anyway or will
> > > put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok the experience and then unload
> > > it on ebay, it might not be.
> > >
> > > Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding all those
> > > different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
> > >
> > > Ron
> >
> > Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can pay
> > $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> > comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> > commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
> > using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is the
> > "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> > percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
> > ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
> > are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
> > the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
> > and earn their business if they want to survive.
>
> Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
> that they are not?
>

Having a trained staff and giving useful advice, for a start. Here's an
example: a few years ago, I went to a bike shop in search of some
replacement spokes. While I waited for a free staff person, I watched
the conversation between a customer and the guy who, it turned out,
owned the shop. The customer was looking at a Cannondale road bike. The
question came to sizing; the shop owner told the guy to stand over the
bike and lift up on the bars. He eyed the space from the floor to the
tire. "Yeah, that's the right size." How much is that kind of "advice"
worth? The guy would do just as well with the info (standover height,
etc.) he could get on the web from Bikes Direct, etc. And, he'd save a
bunch of money, or get a potentially better bike for the same outlay of
cash.


> I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
> comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
> they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
> technology, etc. by shopping online? My limited experience with
> novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary mistakes.
>
The LBSs will still be willing and eagar to tell 'em all about pedals,
clothing and so on. Clubs and rides, too.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> for?

By "cheap" I meant that people feel they can get something cheaper at
BikesDirect etc than their local shop. I wasn't talking about the product
per se. Sorry if people got the wrong impression (which causes them to
totally miss my point).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:.
>>
>> Scott: It's not in their best interest to "put their best-foot forward."
>> They make money (quite a bit of it) at the prices they sell the bikes for
>> primarily because they *don't* offer support. Warranty? Lifetime! Just
>> return it to any Mercier dealer. Fine, if live in metropolitan Texas,
>> otherwise a very long road trip. Help in sizing the bike? The problem
>> there
>> is that, once you begin to help a customer, you're trapped. They're going
>> to
>> keep coming back with more questions, looking for more advice. That's the
>> way it works. At the retail end, that's a good thing, keeps the customer
>> coming back for more goodies etc.
>>
>> At Mercier's end, it's a distraction that keeps them from selling their
>> *only* product. The time they spend with someone on the phone or email
>> discussing various details is time they don't have to sell bikes to other
>> people who don't ask such questions, but buy because the product is
>> cheap.
>> As long as they have a supply of the latter customers (wanting cheap
>> product), they'll always short-change those who cost them more time,
>> resulting in fewer sales to the more-profitable clientele. That's
>> business
>> at that end of the game.
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>
>
> Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek 1000/1200/1500
> for?
>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable.

No, they are not.

> In this case, you can pay
> $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
> using very similar components.

Categorically untrue, at least in Trek's case. There are substantial
differences in the quality of frame produced by the same manufacturer, for
different customers. If price is your most important criteria, they'll build
you the cheapest thing they can. I can only speak for Trek in this case,
although it may be true for some others as well... Trek has a full-time
person, sometimes more than one, basically living in the factory that builds
the bikes. This isn't an option if you want the product built to a
particular spec... it's a requirement. This was first learned (by Trek) a
number of years ago, when they switched overseas suppliers to a "famous
name-brand label" and quality went to ZERO. Why? Because they (the offshore
bike producer) built to the absolute-minimum description of the merchandise.
Basically, they produced a BSO, affectionately known in shops as a "Bike
Shaped Object."

So your more-reputable companies will most likely have someone at the
factory monitoring things, and spec to a higher level of quality (not parts,
but actual frame quality)... for which they're charged more. This isn't
rocket science. It's amazing that people have this idea that a bike frame is
a bike frame, all equally-long-lasting, all equal in ride quality, between
brands. This is not the case.

> Now, the question is this: is the
> "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
> ever.

If my staff & shop doesn't earn the price that's on the bike, then customers
*should* go elsewhere. Here's some of what we do, and I'll bet there are
others who do as well, maybe even better-

- A bike is appropriate for their needs
- Fits correctly (which is a heck of a lot more than having someone stand
over the top tube, or generalizations that a 6' person takes a 60cm frame)
- Makes further fit adjustments down the road if someone isn't comfortable
(because all the measurements and expertise in the world still can't spot
how someone might be after four hours on a bike)
- Properly assemble the bike, a 1.5-3.5 hour job in itself (if done
correctly)
- Introduce them to the cycling opportunities in their area
- Make sure they feel comfortable bringing the bike back in if there's
anything that's keeping them from enjoying it, because we can't stand the
idea of a bike spending it's life in the garage, unridden
- Take care of any warranty issues with as little hassle to the customer as
possible (which might include loaning my own bike or wheels out to someone
if need be)

> Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
> are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
> the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
> and earn their business if they want to survive.

Some shops are dying off; many others are thriving. It all comes down to
taking care of the customer, recognizing their needs, and supplying
solutions. It also means spending less time on "educating" the public in
forums like this because, realistically, people who believe that all bikes
are the same and that BikesDirect.com is offering such a great bargain that
the local shop is ripping you off... those people aren't going to change
their minds. But I'm a sucker for punishment, and also a very fast typist,
so it's not a huge sacrifice. Besides, it helps me to better understand how
people work, which allows me to better optimize my business practices.

And, by the way, we're not perfect. Not even close. We screw up from time to
time, more often than I'd wish. I lose sleep over the things that go wrong.
But I also go out of my way to fix such things, and take personal
responsibility.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> RonSonic wrote:
>> On 10 Dec 2005 14:23:09 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheap product? I wonder, what does your shop sell a Trek
>> >> > 1000/1200/1500
>> >> > for?
>> >>
>> >> I have a Trek 1000 that I commute on, it ain't cheap, just a
>> >> little
>> >> heavy. It's a '99 model, and I have 20,000 miles on it. The Sora
>> >> levers,
>> >> and rear der wore out at about the 15,000 mile mark, and those Vuelta
>> >> wheels
>> >> didn't make it over 4000 miles. But it's been upgraded to a 105 bike,
>> >> and
>> >> the wheels were replaced with some old Rolf comps.
>> >
>> >
>> >The point is that anyone selling Trek 1000s shouldn't be calling the
>> >stuff from Bikes Direct cheap product. They are directly comparable,
>> >but roughly 25-30% cheaper at Bikes Direct; a bike comparable to the
>> >$690 MSRP Trek 1000 is $500 or less at Bikes Direct. That's a big
>> >difference. How much is the "advice" from the LBS worth, really?
>>
>> They aren't directly comparable. The Trek comes with a guy you can find
>> who has
>> to answer for how the bike works for you. In this particular case, it
>> comes with
>> a clear and perfect answer to the question "which size best fits me." It
>> also
>> comes with tune ups and a warranty that actually means something.
>>
>> For a lot of people that is worth every dime.
>>
>> For a buncha bike geeks like us who'd rather do our own wrenching anyway
>> or will
>> put up with a difficult bike long enough to grok the experience and then
>> unload
>> it on ebay, it might not be.
>>
>> Beautiful thing about the free market, all those people finding all those
>> different ways to get us stuff that makes us happy.
>>
>> Ron
>
> Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can pay
> $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
> using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is the
> "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
> ever. Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
> are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
> the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
> and earn their business if they want to survive.
>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
> aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
> steerer. The email from CyclesMercier where they state: "In addition,
> the multitude of possibilities of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and
> along with the headset stack height renders head tube length data
> irrelavant to sizing." is all there needs to be said about head tube
> length.

Russell: By that I assume you mean you agree with them? Some here are taking
it to mean that you work for them, or own the place, or whatever.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Scott Gordo wrote:
>> So I was poking around the ol' interweb one day and found myself
>> presented with a very nicely priced ultegra 10 bike by the new
>> incarnation of the Mercier brand. I've got an apt full of steel framed
>> rigs but, like most, for the right price I'll consider expanding my
>> horizons.
>> I was looking over their sizing charts and they have a few sizes in my
>> range, a 58, 60, and 62. I happen to have frames in all three sizes,
>> and like/dislike qualities of each for different reasons. (I also have
>> mtbs and cruisers in different sizes.) And, you know, the seat tube's
>> c-c isn't an end-all, especially these days with integrated headsets
>> and all that jive.
>> I've also got 4 bulging and/or herniated discs in my lower back, so I'm
>> pretty particular about my fit.
>> As I was looking over their sizing charts, I noticed that there was no
>> measurement for the head tube. I figured, just for giggles, that I'd
>> drop them an email and see what I could find out. The following is my
>> exchange:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: scogo
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:08 PM
>> Subject: head tube lengths?
>>
>> Hello, I'm looking for information on the head tube length for a
>> Mercier Draco Al Road in sizes 60 and 62 and any additional info you
>> could send me that's not on
>> http://www.cyclesmercier.com/geometry_al.html.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CyclesMercier [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:29 PM
>> To: scogo
>> Subject: Re: head tube lengths?
>>
>> We do not publish head tube lengths as they do not pertain to our
>> traditional geometry bicycles
>>
>> CyclesMercier
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: scogo
>> To: CyclesMercier
>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 2:12 PM
>> Subject: RE: head tube lengths?
>>
>> What does that mean? You can't give me the length of the head tube?
>> For a 60 or 62?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CyclesMercier [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 10:12 AM
>> To: scogo
>> Subject: Re: head tube lengths?
>>
>> Dear Sir,
>>
>> Our head tube lengths are proprietary and do not factor into sizing of
>> our bicycles so we do not make them available to prevent consumers from
>> making an error in sizing. In addition, the multitude of possibilities
>> of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and along with the headset stack
>> height renders head tube length data irrelavant to sizing.
>>
>> Head tube length has importance only in sizing sloping top tube compact
>> frames. CyclesMercier does not use compact frame geometry.
>>
>> Our bicycles are traditional geometry. The seat tube length is given
>> from center to top. The top tube extends perpendicular to the ground
>> plane directly from the seat tube to the head tube.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> CyclesMercier
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: scogo
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:08 PM
>> Subject: head tube lengths?
>>
>> This is just one potential customer's opinion.
>> A company who sells bicycles exclusively online, unridden, and unseen
>> except though photos, you should provide as much information as
>> possible. This isn't my first bike, and I'm not buying it because I
>> like the color. I'm trying to compare the dimensions to my current
>> bikes to best figure out the best fit. You may not find that important,
>> but I do.
>> With all the variables that go into framebuilding and sizing, I'd
>> think the least you could do is provide answers to simple questions.
>> One last thing: "proprietary"? What does proprietary mean in this
>> context? That no one else uses a head tube length of the same size?
>> That you've developed some sort of special size for length of the
>> head tube? Perhaps it's your measurement system? Is it based on the
>> mile?
>
> I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
> aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
> steerer. The email from CyclesMercier where they state: "In addition,
> the multitude of possibilities of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and
> along with the headset stack height renders head tube length data
> irrelavant to sizing." is all there needs to be said about head tube
> length.
>
> Why do you think your bad back would care if the bars are at X height
> and Y reach due to 3cm of spacers and +10 degrees stem with 12cm reach
> or 6cm of spacers and 0 degrees stem with 11cm reach? The end result
> of X height and Y reach is identical.
>
> And with a traditional horizontal top tube frame, all you are really
> asking, when you ask for head tube length, is whether the frame builder
> put an extra 0.5 or 1 or 2 cm of head tube above the top tube. You
> know the head tube is at least as tall as the top tube. And whether
> the additional space above the top tube is taken up by extra head tube
> or spacers on the fork steerer, does not matter.
>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> Isn't it funny that when a bike shop/bike maker person actually tells
>> someone the truth and tries to dissuade them of a foolish myth that
>> they are thought of as bad. If the question asker had asked if the
>> bike was stiff yet comfortable and Mercier had said that is BS and no
>> way to buy a bike, would you think Mercier was bad? What if the
>> question asker had asked if the bike was aerodynamic and would make
>> them minutes faster and Mercier had said the bike is irrelevant for
>> that, would you think they were bad? I take it you think all bike
>> shop people should just go along with the customers BS and reinforce
>> the preconceived BS the customer has with more BS. It is what most
>> bike shops do.
>
> But if the inquirer harbors no foolish myths, and poses a simple
> question having relevance to him, why not just answer it?
>
> Luke

Because, in certain business models, it doesn't make sense to. That's not a
crime, it's just the way it is. The company makes money because they provide
a product with no extra "frills" (hand-holding or whatever you may wish to
call it). That's a valid business model. There are other Internet business
models where customer service is extraordinary (but, in most such cases, the
pricing is higher).

If someone is running a no-frills operation, getting bogged down in what may
become a seemingly-endless stream of questions from a buyer may, no, not
may, but will cause you to neglect other opportunities that will be a more
productive use of your time. I'm not trying to make that sound bad!! It's
not. We purchase from suppliers at both ends of the spectrum as well, and
expect very different levels of expertise/hand-holding/whatever.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Bottom line - there's really no reason for a bike company NOT to share
> the information on the length of their head tube. The premise that
> not sharing the info with potential customers is going to keep the
> information "secret" is ludicrous at best, laughable at worst. What?
> None of us other bike company guys have access to a tape measure?
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark: The guy's been in business for a while (under a few different labels),
and he may very well do things the way he does because he knows what sort of
path the conversation takes after discussion of head tube length. It's just
not what he wants to get into. He's not you, he's not me. We've both
probably been successful because we actually favor in-depth discussions with
the customer, learning best how to take care of their needs. We survive
because we add value to the product. If someone doesn't believe that we add
value, or at least not enough for what we charge, they go elsewhere. And if
someone was under the misconception that there would be more hand-holding at
BikesDirect.com, then they may reassess what they're willing to pay, and
recognize that the best "value" isn't always the cheapest buy.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Bill Sornson]

Having read this entire thread, I think we can conclude one thing:

Blubberpuss is a trouble-maker.

/ <eg>

 

[Luke]

In article <[email protected]>, Vee
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > Sorry, but the bikes are directly comparable. In this case, you can pay
> > $690 + state and local taxes for a Trek 1000 or about $495 for a
> > comparable bike from Bikes Direct delivered to your door. Both are
> > commodity aluminum frames welded up, painted and assembled in Taiwan
> > using very similar components. Now, the question is this: is the
> > "advice" and "guidance" you get at your LBS worth that kind of
> > percentage of the purchase price? Not at any LBS I can recall being in,
> > ever.

Well, the operative term is 'I'. The notion of what constitutes value
for another is not predicated upon your sensibilities. The same fellow
who is incredulous at you for parting with a $1000 for a bicycle will
pay a premium of $100 for the privilege of sporting a corporate logo on
a pair of running shoes. I'm overstating the case to be sure, but I
hope you take my point: the determination of value is subjective.

> > Even if you you spend $50 for final assembly and adjustment, you
> > are still way ahead. I hope ideas like Bikes Direct do catch on with
> > the cycling public; that will force the LBSs to get their act together
> > and earn their business if they want to survive.
>
> Get their act together? What do you think bike shops should be doing
> that they are not?
>
> I would expect that the typical consumer who goes for a Trek 1000 or
> comparable road bike is just getting started in the sport. How are
> they going to learn about fit, pedals, clothes, rides, clubs,
> technology, etc. by shopping online?

Not by shopping, but by researching, enquiring, participating in
forums, etc - just as we are now.

Do you not consider that the regular contributions here of several
operators of prominent LBS's spread across the continent (globe?)
underscore the reality that the expertise residing in these shops is
not bound by bricks and mortar? And that your physical LBS need not be
your definitive or primary source of cycling knowledge?

A truly good LBS is a tremendous resource, and worth patronizing for
many reasons beyond effecting a simple transaction (as you note); but
the simple *fact* is that a forum such as this, on any given day,
benefits by several centuries worth of cycling experience of a degree
and scope beyond that which a LBS can match.


> My limited experience with
> novices who buy online is that they make a lot of unnecessary mistakes.
>

My experience is that many LBSes are as adept at dispensing information
as they are misinformation; while others are ignorant (this is not
meant pejoratively). And that uninformed - and misinformed! - buyers
make the most mistakes of all.

Luke

 

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 05:58:08 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Some shops are dying off; many others are thriving. It all comes down to
>taking care of the customer, recognizing their needs, and supplying
>solutions. It also means spending less time on "educating" the public in
>forums like this because, realistically, people who believe that all bikes
>are the same and that BikesDirect.com is offering such a great bargain that
>the local shop is ripping you off... those people aren't going to change
>their minds. But I'm a sucker for punishment, and also a very fast typist,
>so it's not a huge sacrifice. Besides, it helps me to better understand how
>people work, which allows me to better optimize my business practices.
>
>And, by the way, we're not perfect. Not even close. We screw up from time to
>time, more often than I'd wish. I lose sleep over the things that go wrong.
>But I also go out of my way to fix such things, and take personal
>responsibility.

Mike, if a lot more people could correctly count the change from
cashing a reality check the way you do, we would *all* be better off.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 05:58:08 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>the bikes. This isn't an option if you want the product built to a
>particular spec... it's a requirement. This was first learned (by Trek) a
>number of years ago, when they switched overseas suppliers to a "famous
>name-brand label" and quality went to ZERO. Why? Because they (the offshore
>bike producer) built to the absolute-minimum description of the merchandise.
>Basically, they produced a BSO, affectionately known in shops as a "Bike
>Shaped Object."

This anecdote is only really remarkable to me in that before Trek switched
from one overseas supplier to the other, they *were* getting good stuff
without checking up.

>Some shops are dying off; many others are thriving. It all comes down to
>taking care of the customer, recognizing their needs, and supplying
>solutions. It also means spending less time on "educating" the public in
>forums like this because, realistically, people who believe that all bikes

Is what you're doing here really a business chore, rather than your own
personal leisure activity?

Jasper

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>>the bikes. This isn't an option if you want the product built to a
>>particular spec... it's a requirement. This was first learned (by Trek) a
>>number of years ago, when they switched overseas suppliers to a "famous
>>name-brand label" and quality went to ZERO. Why? Because they (the
>>offshore
>>bike producer) built to the absolute-minimum description of the
>>merchandise.
>>Basically, they produced a BSO, affectionately known in shops as a "Bike
>>Shaped Object."
>
> This anecdote is only really remarkable to me in that before Trek switched
> from one overseas supplier to the other, they *were* getting good stuff
> without checking up.

As they say, that was then, this is now. In the rush to the bottom
(commodity-pricing), I doubt there are many manufacturers left who are
unwilling to sacrifice quality in order to sell at lower cost. Trek's former
supplier is not an exception to this. The quality coming out of *any*
manufacturer is up to the company that buys from them.

>>Some shops are dying off; many others are thriving. It all comes down to
>>taking care of the customer, recognizing their needs, and supplying
>>solutions. It also means spending less time on "educating" the public in
>>forums like this because, realistically, people who believe that all bikes
>
> Is what you're doing here really a business chore, rather than your own
> personal leisure activity?

Both, which is fortunate. I'm able to make a living doing something I enjoy.
It's not yet a crime.

> Jasper

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Luke]

In article <[email protected]>, Mike
Jacoubowsky <[email protected]> wrote:

> > But if the inquirer harbors no foolish myths, and poses a simple
> > question having relevance to him, why not just answer it?
> >
> > Luke
>
> Because, in certain business models, it doesn't make sense to. That's not a
> crime, it's just the way it is. The company makes money because they provide
> a product with no extra "frills" (hand-holding or whatever you may wish to
> call it). That's a valid business model. There are other Internet business
> models where customer service is extraordinary (but, in most such cases, the
> pricing is higher).
>
> If someone is running a no-frills operation, getting bogged down in what may
> become a seemingly-endless stream of questions from a buyer may, no, not
> may, but will cause you to neglect other opportunities that will be a more
> productive use of your time. I'm not trying to make that sound bad!! It's
> not. We purchase from suppliers at both ends of the spectrum as well, and
> expect very different levels of expertise/hand-holding/whatever.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>

Your point is well made. You get what you pay for; service and
consultation sometimes aren't part of the deal.

Then I'd conclude in the case of CyclesMercier that the company suffers
from a poor implementation of the no-frills business model. Here's the
outcome of CM's ethos: it squandered more time in evading a simple
query than was required to address it; a potential client was
alienated; and, lastly, a measure of unfavourable PR was incurred
(archived for posterity in cyberspace). Solution: post the headtube
length on the company website with a footnote outlining its
(ir-)relevance to sizing.

Regardless of the significance the headtube length plays in sizing,
CyclesMercier would do better to subordinate it to that which the
customer plays in its existence.

Luke