Epiphany on paceline etiquette and group rides



[email protected] wrote:

> Someday, someone will explain to me why it's obviously dangerous and
> stupid for a bicyclist to cling to the side or back of a car with one
> hand at 30 mph down a public street, but sensible for a pack of
> bicyclists to cling just as closely to each other in a blind pack.
>
> Is there some magical quality about a horde of bicyclists unable to
> see anything but the butt of the rider a yard or so in front of their
> faces that is supposed to make the rest of the world (debris,
> potholes, stray dogs, squirrels, children on bicycles, side traffic,
> and so forth) simply vanish?
>
> Possibly the "unfortunate rider behind" should remember who's
> responsible for riding his bicycle?


It's the people in front's (take that, English teacher!) (<g>, c-f)
responsibility to make it safe for the people in back of them.

It's the people in the back's responsibility to not run into the people
in front of them, and to ride close enough to draft, but safely.

Clint Eastwood talked about knowing your limitations. I've taken that
one to heart, also Steve McQueen's brief summation: "It can happen to
you. It can happen again". Also, as one of my early teachers noted,
with agreement from the others present: "If the guy ahead of you makes
it through, if you're right on his wheel, you can make it through,
too". Much better than swerving into a pothole that the riders ahead
miss easily.

The people I've been riding with for 25 years and more enjoy teaching.
Some people enjoy learning, some can't handle the imagined insult to
their egos. Over the last few years, after a return to my adopted city,
it's been illustrative to see a "rolling reunion" of sorts, where folks
who rode elsewhere, or didn't ride, have attended a longstanding
weekend ride or two. The "old dogs" whose wheels you could trust in the
previous century are, guess what? still the wheels you can trust now.
And the others? Well, you give them some room. You cover for them, and
bark at them when they screw up. The difference is the attitude in the
people who accept criticism and try to improve.

It isn't all that difficult, the skill set. Not "magic", just knowing
something about what you're doing, and paying attention (incl. making
adjustments for conditions and situations). Contrasting the group(s) I
ride with and say, a fast, competitive Century "ride" (a Death to the
Weak road race by any other name?), which usually do feature some
number of nasty pileups, the difference in attitude and comportment is
apparent.

Standing up on a hill, while keeping the wheel from "coming back"? You
push harder *before* you stand up. Keep the speed the same, or
accelerate. If the wheel ahead of you slows, you try to miss it without
ruining the day for the next one back. Maybe a little overlap for a
moment on a good side, whatever. Pretty simple, takes just a little
practice if the interest is there. --D-y
 
<[email protected]> wrote: What would we hear on this newsgroup if we
saw a dozen SUV's trying to save gas by tailgating a foot or two apart at
20-35 mph on public streets and then complaining about the occasional
accident? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We would rightfully call them stupid, but that's not the best comparison.
The comparison should be between cyclists in a pace line and racing cars or
sports cars on a track. Even when they are not competing, they are engaging
in a dangerous activity for sport. Because there is a recognized risk,
there is also an expectation that the participants will observe certain
practices to protect themselves and others. Actually, I think one of the
reasons people do these things is so they can experience the excitement of
taking risks. They keep two sets of mental books:
1.) "Look at me--I'm doing something risky."
2.) "Look out, I don't want to get hurt."
 
"Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders? Sure, you
> can ride a little faster for a given effort, or expend a bit less
> effort for a given speed than you would without the paceline. Is that
> worth compromising safety? I don't think so (except possibly when
> riding into a strong headwind, when you're going slow anyway).


Well, there are fast pacelines, with the goal sometimes being to train to a
certain level of fitness or to have a little bit of a club race. Then there
are slower, more relaxed pacelines with the goal being to have fun and to
talk. Really, your question boils down to "What is the point of riding with
other cyclists?" I don't suppose you realy need a reason to want to
socialize. Anyway, if a paceline gets too hinky, I'm one of the first out.
I agree that it's not worth taking the chance on a dodgy paceline.
 
Mike Reed wrote:

> Back in 1992, Bob Cook Memorial Mt. Evans Hill Climb, some guy in
> cuttoff shorts and a tank top, riding an old 70's 10-speed won the
> citizens race with platform pedals and Vans. His time would have placed
> him in the top ten for the 1/2/pros (1:58:00 or so?). He was just some
> climbing mutant who lived in Aspen.


Just some climbing mutant who trained his ass off.

His name was Scott Elliott, if the results page is
correct.

Robert
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Reed wrote:
>
> > Back in 1992, Bob Cook Memorial Mt. Evans Hill Climb, some guy in
> > cuttoff shorts and a tank top, riding an old 70's 10-speed won the
> > citizens race with platform pedals and Vans. His time would have placed
> > him in the top ten for the 1/2/pros (1:58:00 or so?). He was just some
> > climbing mutant who lived in Aspen.

>
> Just some climbing mutant who trained his ass off.
>
> His name was Scott Elliott, if the results page is
> correct.


I used to ride and do "shop races" (you know, shop sponsored training
rides that are really just races) with the guy who won the race, Mike
Engleman. Even when he was a Cat 3 (which lasted for about three
races), he was a super mutant -- beating times on local climbs set by
some pretty good pros, including Jock Boyer. He had an incredible
genetic gift, and he trained hard, too. Only served to remind me that
I was not cut out to be a climbing god. -- Jay Beattie.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Reed wrote:
>
>> Back in 1992, Bob Cook Memorial Mt. Evans Hill Climb, some guy in
>> cuttoff shorts and a tank top, riding an old 70's 10-speed won the
>> citizens race with platform pedals and Vans. His time would have placed
>> him in the top ten for the 1/2/pros (1:58:00 or so?). He was just some
>> climbing mutant who lived in Aspen.

>
> Just some climbing mutant who trained his ass off.
>
> His name was Scott Elliott, if the results page is
> correct.
>
> Robert
>

Yeah, trained and lived at about 6,000 feet or so and had his body
conditioned for high altitude.
Does that mean he would be cheating if he raced at sea level?
If you live at high altitude you have a very definite O2 intake advantage.
Bill Baka
 
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 14:40:25 -0400, Doug Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:


>There are two kinds of bicycle riders:
>
>Those who ride in packs and *****-nilly learn the "etiquette;" and
>those who don't.


What about the cyclists who participate in group rides which have
explicit coaching as part of the rides goals. That's how I learned to
ride a paceline well. Where I live there are at least two clubs that
teach these skills.

JT

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On 7 Jun 2006 12:49:55 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders?


Joy, or the sense of accomplishment from doing a sporting activity
well.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 7 Jun 2006 12:49:55 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders?

>
> Joy, or the sense of accomplishment from doing a sporting activity
> well.
>
> JT
>
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************


Pacelines and recreational don't work for me. That means having to be
somewhere at a designated time to do something and not getting paid for
it. Too much like work. I like to just grab the bike and go. Competition
is good but I would have to load the bike in my car and drive to
participate, which kind of defeats the 'green' aspect of a bicycle.
I ride in exactly 1 event every year, our local "Bike around the Buttes"
here in Northern California. It is a charity ride and not a race with
people starting out from 7:00 A.M. (me) to about 11:00. I am almost
always the first person past the 10 mile refreshment stop, before they
are even set up, then get passed at the 15 mile point by the racer
roadies. They run a paceline but nobody else does. Some of the more fit
non racers catch up to me at about the 20 mile point since I do stop and
take pictures, and by 25 miles I am in a crowd of very chatty adults,
and I stay in that pack until the finish. Not a paceline but about a
hundred people pedaling and socializing at maybe 12 MPH. That seems to
me to be a good definition of recreational, no racing, just riding and
enjoying the day.
Bill Baka
 
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:10:44 -0700, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:


>Pacelines and recreational don't work for me. That means having to be
>somewhere at a designated time to do something and not getting paid for
>it. Too much like work. I like to just grab the bike and go. Competition
>is good but I would have to load the bike in my car and drive to
>participate, which kind of defeats the 'green' aspect of a bicycle.
>I ride in exactly 1 event every year, our local "Bike around the Buttes"
>here in Northern California. It is a charity ride and not a race with
>people starting out from 7:00 A.M. (me) to about 11:00. I am almost
>always the first person past the 10 mile refreshment stop, before they
>are even set up, then get passed at the 15 mile point by the racer
>roadies. They run a paceline but nobody else does. Some of the more fit
>non racers catch up to me at about the 20 mile point since I do stop and
>take pictures, and by 25 miles I am in a crowd of very chatty adults,
>and I stay in that pack until the finish. Not a paceline but about a
>hundred people pedaling and socializing at maybe 12 MPH. That seems to
>me to be a good definition of recreational, no racing, just riding and
>enjoying the day.


Congratulations.

JT

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"Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On 7 Jun 2006 12:49:55 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders?

> >
> > Joy, or the sense of accomplishment from doing a sporting activity
> > well.
> >
> > JT
> >
> > ****************************
> > Remove "remove" to reply
> > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> > ****************************

>
> Pacelines and recreational don't work for me. That means having to be
> somewhere at a designated time to do something and not getting paid for
> it. Too much like work. I like to just grab the bike and go. Competition
> is good but I would have to load the bike in my car and drive to
> participate, which kind of defeats the 'green' aspect of a bicycle.
> I ride in exactly 1 event every year, our local "Bike around the Buttes"
> here in Northern California. It is a charity ride and not a race with
> people starting out from 7:00 A.M. (me) to about 11:00. I am almost
> always the first person past the 10 mile refreshment stop, before they
> are even set up, then get passed at the 15 mile point by the racer
> roadies. They run a paceline but nobody else does. Some of the more fit
> non racers catch up to me at about the 20 mile point since I do stop and
> take pictures, and by 25 miles I am in a crowd of very chatty adults,
> and I stay in that pack until the finish. Not a paceline but about a
> hundred people pedaling and socializing at maybe 12 MPH. That seems to
> me to be a good definition of recreational, no racing, just riding and
> enjoying the day.
> Bill Baka


No offense, but riding that slowly, on a dead flat century, would bore me to
death (whether or not I was in a paceline). Of course, YMMV.

FWIW, it's not that hard to socialize in a civilized paceline...the secret
is finding one you're comfortable with. On most century rides I like to
start out early. Soon enough, a paceline will come along, and I'll jump on.
If the pace isn't killer, and the folks seem friendly and competent, I'll
hang in. If not, I drop out and wait for the next paceline to come along.
I've found this is a good way to meet riders from other clubs and areas, and
a whole lot more fun than going 12 mph!

~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists
 
[email protected] wrote:

> What would we hear on this newsgroup if we saw a dozen SUV's trying to
> save gas by tailgating a foot or two apart at 20-35 mph on public
> streets and then complaining about the occasional accident?


Every time I drive on a highway with more than a moderate
amount of traffic, I see cars behind each other with much
less following distance than they teach in the driver's manual.
If you tried to leave the official following distance in a car,
someone would cut in front of you.

> Someday, someone will explain to me why it's obviously dangerous and
> stupid for a bicyclist to cling to the side or back of a car with one
> hand at 30 mph down a public street, but sensible for a pack of
> bicyclists to cling just as closely to each other in a blind pack.


It's not a blind pack. If you aren't comfortable with it or
haven't developed the skills to ride close to other people,
it isn't safe. If you have, it is pretty safe. It is less safe than
doing nothing and staying home, but probably more safe
than a host of other everyday activities, including driving
in fast heavy traffic.

> Is there some magical quality about a horde of bicyclists unable to
> see anything but the butt of the rider a yard or so in front of their
> faces that is supposed to make the rest of the world (debris,
> potholes, stray dogs, squirrels, children on bicycles, side traffic,
> and so forth) simply vanish?
>
> Possibly the "unfortunate rider behind" should remember who's
> responsible for riding his bicycle?


You can see more than the next rider's butt. There is an etiquette,
though, about not doing stuff like leading the line through
glass or potholes, that exists for a reason and that I get the
sense you are not accustomed to. Nobody was born knowing
this stuff. There is only one way to learn it.
 
> I've given up on pacelines for a couple of reasons. I feel much more
> relaxed not having to focus intensely on the tight pack. And I can more
> fully enjoy the other sights and sounds around me.
>
> Anyone who thinks they're not compromising safety when riding in a
> paceline is kidding themselves.


I don't think that I compromise safety. I think that I am only
killing myself and making my ankle problems worse by trying to maintain
the pace.

How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
cross wind and such.


--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
> I won't argue the statistics on this but my experience is that
> recreational pace lines do not result in many crashes. Must less so
> than club rides with a large pack- at least that is my experience. Much
> fewer options to move around in a pack than in a pace line and seeing
> obstacles in front is if anything more difficult.



I was very upset two years ago. It my first year of big time riding.
I was learning to ride a paceline and build my mileage. I was horrified
by this one rider. People have thought that I am nuts with high cadence,
but this guy constantly was trying to race and he would end up parrallel
to someone else. The claims vary. However, I think that he swerved right
to avoid a small pothole and hit the person on his right. I've heard
it the other way.

I've also seen one woman recently get knocked to the ground when the
bike in front of her came to a complete stop after slowing down for
a traffic light.

I will have to admit that I don't keep my head down. I am always
watching the road. I've seen people that don't work the neck and never
really look forward. Anyways, I've ridden behind this same person
many times through the same spot. I've never had the problem as I'm
always paying attention to his rate of speed, the cars ahead, and the
traffic light. The person never realized that he was slowing down.

bill

--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
"William O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > I've given up on pacelines for a couple of reasons. I feel much more
> > relaxed not having to focus intensely on the tight pack. And I can more
> > fully enjoy the other sights and sounds around me.
> >
> > Anyone who thinks they're not compromising safety when riding in a
> > paceline is kidding themselves.

>
> I don't think that I compromise safety. I think that I am only
> killing myself and making my ankle problems worse by trying to maintain
> the pace.
>
> How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
> like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
> cross wind and such.


The pros are riding on roads closed to traffic, so an echelon that takes up
the whole road is no big deal.

That said, when I teach newbies about pacelining, I tell them explicitly
that the best draft is not always directly behind the wheel of the rider
ahead. In a cross-wind you can usually hear and feel the difference when
you're in the sweet spot...it isn't rocket science.

GG

>
>
> --
> ---
> William O'Hara
> www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
> www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
> ICRR
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Just some climbing mutant who trained his ass off.
>
> His name was Scott Elliott, if the results page is
> correct.


And is a seven-time winner of the Pikes Peak Ascent in Manitou Springs,
Colorado. (running)
 
GaryG wrote:
> "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On 7 Jun 2006 12:49:55 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders?
>>> Joy, or the sense of accomplishment from doing a sporting activity
>>> well.
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>> ****************************
>>> Remove "remove" to reply
>>> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
>>> ****************************

>> Pacelines and recreational don't work for me. That means having to be
>> somewhere at a designated time to do something and not getting paid for
>> it. Too much like work. I like to just grab the bike and go. Competition
>> is good but I would have to load the bike in my car and drive to
>> participate, which kind of defeats the 'green' aspect of a bicycle.
>> I ride in exactly 1 event every year, our local "Bike around the Buttes"
>> here in Northern California. It is a charity ride and not a race with
>> people starting out from 7:00 A.M. (me) to about 11:00. I am almost
>> always the first person past the 10 mile refreshment stop, before they
>> are even set up, then get passed at the 15 mile point by the racer
>> roadies. They run a paceline but nobody else does. Some of the more fit
>> non racers catch up to me at about the 20 mile point since I do stop and
>> take pictures, and by 25 miles I am in a crowd of very chatty adults,
>> and I stay in that pack until the finish. Not a paceline but about a
>> hundred people pedaling and socializing at maybe 12 MPH. That seems to
>> me to be a good definition of recreational, no racing, just riding and
>> enjoying the day.
>> Bill Baka

>
> No offense, but riding that slowly, on a dead flat century, would bore me to
> death (whether or not I was in a paceline). Of course, YMMV.
>
> FWIW, it's not that hard to socialize in a civilized paceline...the secret
> is finding one you're comfortable with. On most century rides I like to
> start out early. Soon enough, a paceline will come along, and I'll jump on.
> If the pace isn't killer, and the folks seem friendly and competent, I'll
> hang in. If not, I drop out and wait for the next paceline to come along.
> I've found this is a good way to meet riders from other clubs and areas, and
> a whole lot more fun than going 12 mph!
>
> ~_-*
> ....G/ \G
> http://www.CycliStats.com
> CycliStats - Software for Cyclists
>
>

No argument about the 12 MPH being boring but it is a social/charity
ride and usually the first 2 or 3 mini pelotons that pass me are
seriously racing each other at about 25 MPH or more. I might try to pick
up on about the 4th or 5th at around 20 MPH, then I could keep up and
have some breath left over for talking. 12 is slow, but that is where
90% of the riders are on this event, and I am out to meet more people
who ride, even the slower ones.
It's ALL good.
Bill Baka
 
Doug Taylor wrote:
> I've read a few posts lately about the failure of riders riding in
> groups and pacelines to point out obstacles, resulting in bike damage


Can people not learn early braking and constant braking force? It drive me
nuts when people brake lightly, then increase the force as everyone piles up
to the light. I brake early, hold the brake lever with no changes in grip,
until at a complete stop. No surprises.

--
Phil
 
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:18:49 -0500, "William O'Hara"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
>like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
>cross wind and such.


It's not easy to do that when there are cars on the same road.

JT

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[email protected] wrote:
> dvt wrote:


>> The only way to avoid this is to crank harder, accelerating during the
>> transition from sitting to standing. I suppose you can achieve this with
>> some practice, but I don't think most riders will do so. I agree with
>> Sorni... it's generally the following rider's responsibility to avoid
>> contact.
>>

>
> I just slowly raise my butt a few inches off the seat shortly before I
> stand, trying to be smooth. I figure the butt-raise is adequate warning
> to back off for those who might be too close. Usually I am the last one
> to stand so it isn't an issue. This isn't to be confused with last man
> standing, I'm usually down the hill with Bill anyway.


I think it's a pretty easy thing to do -- maintain a constant gap while
transitioning from seated to standing. With practice you learn to do it
with peripheral vision.

The burden falls to the following rider for sure because he's the one
that's going to crash if wheels touch, but it's very frustrating to
follow an uneven rider, and "sliding back" when standing is perhaps the
most common (and easily corrected) flaw. It is the mark of a noob.