Epiphany on paceline etiquette and group rides

[Art Harris]

Kevan wrote:
> "Art Harris" wrote:
> > But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders? Sure, you
> > can ride a little faster for a given effort,


> Well, there are fast pacelines, with the goal sometimes being to train to a
> certain level of fitness


Fitness is attained by riding a lot and pushing yourself. You can do
that without a paceline.

> Then there
> are slower, more relaxed pacelines with the goal being to have fun and to
> talk. Really, your question boils down to "What is the point of riding with
> other cyclists?"

Groups don't _have_ to ride in pacelines. What's wrong with leaving a
bike length between riders so there is more time to react to the
unexpected.

My point is that maybe you gain 1-2 mph by riding in a paceline. That's
not such a big deal except for "serious cyclists" who record their
average speeds. But remember, the increased speed is due to cheating
the wind, not increased fitness.

There seems to be an attitude that those who don't ride in pacelines
are just casual riders. Some are, but many others like to ride long and
hard and still be able to enjoy the sights.

Then again, there are different kinds of pacelines. When 3 or 4 guys
ride together regularly in a paceline, it's probably fairly safe. At
the other extreme are large events where folks jump in and out of long
pacelines with people they don't even know. That's scary since it only
takes one screw up to cause a pileup. Most club rides are somewhere in
the middle, a core group of regular riders mixed in with people who
just show up.

It all come down to what you ride for: Fitness and enjoyment, or
thrills and competition.

Art Harris

 

[Doug Taylor]

On 8 Jun 2006 05:23:26 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It all come down to what you ride for: Fitness and enjoyment, or
>thrills and competition.

Not exactly.

If you are a triathlete or one who rides solo for fitness and
enjoyment, great. Ride by yourself and be tough. More power to you.

If, on the other hand, you want to ride with a group of other riders,
for the company, or to challenge yourself, or to race, or whatever,
then you have a RESPONSIBILITY to learn how to ride cooperatively, for
your own safety and for that of the entire group. Group dynamics are
complicated and nothing like riding solo. The bigger the pack and the
faster the speed, the more important it is to learn, understand and
apply the "etiquette" of pack riding. Yes, you have to ride
defensively, but you also have to be aware of everyone around you, the
road conditions, traffic, etc., AND be constantly aware that
everything YOU do affects everyone else.

This is just the beginning; there are all sorts of dynamics going on
in a group of experienced, fit, and strong riders, whether Pro/1/ 2's
in a race, or just club riders out for a fast 40 miler. Where I live,
you learn it by participating and sometimes the learning curve is
painful. Apparently, there are places, as John Forrest Tomlinson
points out, where experienced riders actually teach newbies how to
ride in packs and pacelines. God bless them.

The point is that "fitness and enjoyment / thrills and competition"
are NOT mutually exclusive.

Lennard Zinn, of Velo News and "Zinn and the Art of Road/Mountain Bike
Maintenance" fame, came up with this gem:

"Sketchier than riding behind a triathlete in a Cat 4 Crit."

There's a reason that this image is hysterically funny. If you get
it, you can ride with my club. If you don't, stay out of my paceline.

 

[Bill Baka]

Art Harris wrote:
> Kevan wrote:
>> "Art Harris" wrote:
>>> But what is the point of pacelines for recreational riders? Sure, you
>>> can ride a little faster for a given effort,
>
>
>> Well, there are fast pacelines, with the goal sometimes being to train to a
>> certain level of fitness
>
>
> Fitness is attained by riding a lot and pushing yourself. You can do
> that without a paceline.
>
>> Then there
>> are slower, more relaxed pacelines with the goal being to have fun and to
>> talk. Really, your question boils down to "What is the point of riding with
>> other cyclists?"
>
> Groups don't _have_ to ride in pacelines. What's wrong with leaving a
> bike length between riders so there is more time to react to the
> unexpected.

Amen. many casual groups have riders of various fitness levels, not all
being elite class, so a casual line would have to ride at the speed of
the slowest rider.
>
> My point is that maybe you gain 1-2 mph by riding in a paceline. That's
> not such a big deal except for "serious cyclists" who record their
> average speeds. But remember, the increased speed is due to cheating
> the wind, not increased fitness.

Yes, it is cheating if you pick up that 1-2 MPH by following a fitter
rider and never take the lead for him.
>
> There seems to be an attitude that those who don't ride in pacelines
> are just casual riders. Some are, but many others like to ride long and
> hard and still be able to enjoy the sights.

Where I worked a few years ago I rode at lunch and after work by myself
mostly doing mountain climbs. There were 3 other guys who did their own
thing with a 3 bike paceline and rode considerably faster than me but
only on the level roads. I could not do a full out lunch ride since
these 3 guys took over the company shower every day, but after work I
had about 3 hours until sundown for longer and faster rides, again solo,
so I knew what my own shape was. They knew more what the group fitness
was since they only rode together as 3 during the week.
>
> Then again, there are different kinds of pacelines. When 3 or 4 guys
> ride together regularly in a paceline, it's probably fairly safe.

Yup,
The guys at my work never had a problem with only 3 riders.

At
> the other extreme are large events where folks jump in and out of long
> pacelines with people they don't even know. That's scary since it only
> takes one screw up to cause a pileup.

Kind of like last years TdF where even the experienced riders got caught
in mass peloton pile ups.

Most club rides are somewhere in
> the middle, a core group of regular riders mixed in with people who
> just show up.
>
> It all come down to what you ride for: Fitness and enjoyment, or
> thrills and competition.

What you said.
>
> Art Harris
>
Bill Baka

 

[William O'Hara]

>>How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
>>like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
>>cross wind and such.
>
> It's not easy to do that when there are cars on the same road.

When we ride on roads without traffic and they're closed to any
through traffic, then isn't my question a good one?


--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR

 

[Bill Baka]

William O'Hara wrote:
>>> How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
>>> like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
>>> cross wind and such.
>> It's not easy to do that when there are cars on the same road.
>
> When we ride on roads without traffic and they're closed to any
> through traffic, then isn't my question a good one?
>
>
Just how many times do you have such an ideal setup? Are you lucky
enough to live where there is no development going on? I can't find any
roads without traffic, even way up in the mountains on dirt or gravel.
You must be in an alternate reality without cars.
Bill Baka

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:04:58 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:

> The burden falls to the following rider for sure because he's the one
> that's going to crash if wheels touch, but it's very frustrating to
> follow an uneven rider, and "sliding back" when standing is perhaps the
> most common (and easily corrected) flaw. It is the mark of a noob.

I know a few riders who have been doing it for years! The problem is, no
one likes to be corrected, so no one corrects them.

Matt O.

 

[[email protected]]

Ron Ruff wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Just some climbing mutant who trained his ass off.
> >
> > His name was Scott Elliott, if the results page is
> > correct.
>
> And is a seven-time winner of the Pikes Peak Ascent in Manitou Springs,
> Colorado. (running)

Whoa. Running up Pikes Peak more difficult than
riding up Mt. Evans in my opinion.

R

 

[Sorni]

Peter Cole wrote:

> The burden falls to the following rider for sure because he's the one
> that's going to crash if wheels touch, but it's very frustrating to
> follow an uneven rider, and "sliding back" when standing is perhaps
> the most common (and easily corrected) flaw. It is the mark of a noob.

Or an overly competitive jerk? After all, it /will/ get someone off the
wheel briefly, and make him or her expend some energy to get back on.

Bill "just drop me so I don't have to worry about this stuff" S.

 

[Peter Cole]

Sorni wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> The burden falls to the following rider for sure because he's the one
>> that's going to crash if wheels touch, but it's very frustrating to
>> follow an uneven rider, and "sliding back" when standing is perhaps
>> the most common (and easily corrected) flaw. It is the mark of a noob.
>
> Or an overly competitive jerk? After all, it /will/ get someone off the
> wheel briefly, and make him or her expend some energy to get back on.
>
> Bill "just drop me so I don't have to worry about this stuff" S.

I don't think "back sliders" do it deliberately. I think they're just
clueless. The "overly competitive" types are usually the ones who come
around and ride alongside as if you're going too slow, when you're
actually all riding wheel-to-wheel, or "filter forward" at every stop,
even though they know they'll get gapped off at the first climb (where
they never move aside so the group can pull through). The "overly
competitive" types are usually those who are riding just a bit over
their heads and have to be over-aggressive to hang with the pack. Their
behavior becomes even more dangerous because they're running in the red
zone all the time. The "I'll die before I'm dropped" group.

<Waxing philosophical> The point that gets lost is that cycling,
particularly pace line cycling, is pleasant in direct proportion to its
gracefulness. A small, smoothly rotating, pace line, maintaining a
steady pace, is a joy to be in. When it gets all lumpy and random it's
irritating and dangerous -- I'd much rather ride alone. The people who
**** it up seem to miss the whole point. Done right, it should be much
more like a team time trial than a road race.

Another irritation: "intermittent pedalers. You know, the stomp, stomp,
stomp -- coast -- stomp, stomp, stomp... types. Every time they coast,
you get ready to brake, so it makes it impossible to relax & get into a
rhythm. It's a dance, and they have two left feet.

 

[Doug Taylor]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:19:46 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email protected]> wrote:


><Waxing philosophical> The point that gets lost is that cycling,
>particularly pace line cycling, is pleasant in direct proportion to its
>gracefulness. A small, smoothly rotating, pace line, maintaining a
>steady pace, is a joy to be in. When it gets all lumpy and random it's
>irritating and dangerous -- I'd much rather ride alone. The people who
>**** it up seem to miss the whole point. Done right, it should be much
>more like a team time trial than a road race.

Ah, yes. I'm looking forward to doing the annual Rideau Lakes Tour
this weekend, where 1500 cyclists ride 200k +/- from Ottawa to
Kingston, Ontario on Saturday, spend the night at Queens University,
then back to Ottawa the next day.

There are abilities from duffers to Cat 2 (and some pros here and
there), on everything from all carbon UCI minimum mega buck bikes to
circa 1985 mountain bikes with knobbies. Along the route, you will
encounter single pacelines, double pacelines, pelotons with 8 or so
workers at the front and 20 people sitting in on the back at 45 kph
barely pedaling Some are organized, some are sketchy, but you can
always find a group to ride with, and since the vast majority of the
people are Canadians, they are friendly and civilized even if you're a
Yank (like me).

The route is flat to rolling, and to give you an idea of how some of
the more efficient pacelines work, the last two years, at least on day
2, I have clocked the 100 mile mark at 4 hours 45 minutes. Not a pro
race pace, to be sure, but not too shabby for club master fattie
And, indeed, a joy to be a part of: a bunch of fit men and women
working as a group, everybody going hard, everybody experienced,
nobody squirrely - and you have never met most of them in your life
before! Way cool.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:08:22 -0700, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:

>William O'Hara wrote:
>>>> How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
>>>> like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
>>>> cross wind and such.
>>> It's not easy to do that when there are cars on the same road.
>>
>> When we ride on roads without traffic and they're closed to any
>> through traffic, then isn't my question a good one?
>>
>>
>Just how many times do you have such an ideal setup? Are you lucky
>enough to live where there is no development going on? I can't find any
>roads without traffic, even way up in the mountains on dirt or gravel.

Plus there has to be wind, and not many other road users (even none
cars). Were I live there are some roads closed to cars at some times,
but in most of them there is relatively little crosswinds. But yes,
sometimes we'll have staggered pacelines. But more comomonly, the
front of the group will be in a slight stagger and the rest will be on
the edge of the lane on the lee side.

There is another place we race, which is an airfield, and there are
echelons or staggered pacelines there almost every single race. It is
windy and the road is wide and there is minimal traffic.

JT

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[William O'Hara]

Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> William O'Hara wrote:
>>>> How many times do you see non straight pacelines? It seems
>>>> like most amateurs never attempt any of the pro moves to handle
>>>> cross wind and such.
>>> It's not easy to do that when there are cars on the same road.
>>
>> When we ride on roads without traffic and they're closed to any
>> through traffic, then isn't my question a good one?
>>
>>
> Just how many times do you have such an ideal setup? Are you lucky
> enough to live where there is no development going on? I can't find any
> roads without traffic, even way up in the mountains on dirt or gravel.
> You must be in an alternate reality without cars.
> Bill Baka
>

We do have some parts through the park and we also have a one way
section by the beach.

--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR

 

[Chris Neary]

>My point is that maybe you gain 1-2 mph by riding in a paceline. That's
>not such a big deal except for "serious cyclists" who record their
>average speeds. But remember, the increased speed is due to cheating
>the wind, not increased fitness.

Not always,

There is a gradual hill near where I used to live. Alone, I would typically
ride up it @ 16 MPH or so.

With the Saturday group (a combination of racers, ex-racers, and strong club
cyclists) it is common for our group to ride up it at 18 - 20 MPH, and on
one occasion I was astonished to see the group at 24 MPH on this hill.

The increased speed is due to everyone sharing the work and getting a good
interval workout - something that is possible when riding solo, but
difficult unless you are very smart about your training.


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Chris Neary]

>No argument about the 12 MPH being boring but it is a social/charity
>ride and usually the first 2 or 3 mini pelotons that pass me are
>seriously racing each other at about 25 MPH or more.

And you would know this how?


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Chris Neary]

>Actually, I think one of the
>reasons people do these things is so they can experience the excitement of
>taking risks. They keep two sets of mental books:
>1.) "Look at me--I'm doing something risky."
>2.) "Look out, I don't want to get hurt."

Actually, in a paceline composed of experienced, smart riders, what they are
thinking is "There is risk involved with what we are doing, but we will look
out for one another to minimize this risk".

The bond of trust between riders in a well-run paceline is a special thing.


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Bill Baka]

Chris Neary wrote:
>> No argument about the 12 MPH being boring but it is a social/charity
>> ride and usually the first 2 or 3 mini pelotons that pass me are
>> seriously racing each other at about 25 MPH or more.
>
> And you would know this how?
>
>
> Chris Neary
> [email protected]

If I am indicating 17 MPH and get passed like I was standing still then
it is rather obvious the guys who passed me are doing well over 20, and
probably over 25 MPH. Maybe they just passed me extra fast just to
impress me since I was the lead rider for the first 15 miles due to an
earlier start.
I don't carry a radar gun to clock other riders.
Like I said I ride about 5 miles at about 17 MPH then stop to take
pictures and eat or drink, so my average is about 12, not my actual
riding speed. That way the bigger, slower, and chattier groups catch up
to me. It's a SOCIAL ride so I socialize. The upside is that I meet
potential business oriented people in the slower groups.
Bill Baka

 

[Chris Neary]

Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chris Neary wrote:
>>> No argument about the 12 MPH being boring but it is a social/charity
>>> ride and usually the first 2 or 3 mini pelotons that pass me are
>>> seriously racing each other at about 25 MPH or more.
>>
>> And you would know this how?
>
>If I am indicating 17 MPH and get passed like I was standing still then
>it is rather obvious the guys who passed me are doing well over 20, and
>probably over 25 MPH. Maybe they just passed me extra fast just to
>impress me since I was the lead rider for the first 15 miles due to an
>earlier start.
>I don't carry a radar gun to clock other riders.
>Like I said I ride about 5 miles at about 17 MPH then stop to take
>pictures and eat or drink, so my average is about 12, not my actual
>riding speed. That way the bigger, slower, and chattier groups catch up
>to me. It's a SOCIAL ride so I socialize. The upside is that I meet
>potential business oriented people in the slower groups.

You missed the point - how do you know they are *racing*?



Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Leo Lichtman]

"Chris Neary" wrote: Actually, in a paceline composed of experienced, smart
riders, what they are thinking is "There is risk involved with what we are
doing, but we will look out for one another to minimize this risk".
>
> The bond of trust between riders in a well-run paceline is a special
> thing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Chris, we are really thinking the same thing. This is a line which you
clipped from my post: "Because there is a recognized risk, there is also
an expectation that the participants will observe certain practices to
protect themselves and others."

 

[Bill Baka]

Chris Neary wrote:
> Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Chris Neary wrote:
>>>> No argument about the 12 MPH being boring but it is a social/charity
>>>> ride and usually the first 2 or 3 mini pelotons that pass me are
>>>> seriously racing each other at about 25 MPH or more.
>>> And you would know this how?
>> If I am indicating 17 MPH and get passed like I was standing still then
>> it is rather obvious the guys who passed me are doing well over 20, and
>> probably over 25 MPH. Maybe they just passed me extra fast just to
>> impress me since I was the lead rider for the first 15 miles due to an
>> earlier start.
>> I don't carry a radar gun to clock other riders.
>> Like I said I ride about 5 miles at about 17 MPH then stop to take
>> pictures and eat or drink, so my average is about 12, not my actual
>> riding speed. That way the bigger, slower, and chattier groups catch up
>> to me. It's a SOCIAL ride so I socialize. The upside is that I meet
>> potential business oriented people in the slower groups.
>
> You missed the point - how do you know they are *racing*?
>
>
>
> Chris Neary
> [email protected]

OK,
On that point I don't know they are racing, just a really fast pace
line. Some of the passes I have had lead me to wonder if they can
maintain it since some of these guys blow past the rest stops and free
goodies like they are going to do a Century just on what they are
carrying. Not likely.
Just an observation.
Bill Baka