Freedom Of Speech

[mocka58]

Your views are good and well taken. I think your mention of history is also relevent. We, the western world or first world, have opened our minds or at least learned to accept or tolerate things that we don't agree with or find offensive.
If you grow up with Islam, in the Mid-east, there are hard and fast laws that have not change in centuries. Freedoms and civil liberties, that we in the west take for granted, do not exist in their culture. Now, bring some of these people to the west, where we have freedom of religion, speech, and the press. When cultures collide, there is a good chance of an explosion.
There are extremists in every religion and culture. But Islam seems to have more than their fair share.

I work with quite a few Arab and Pakistani men and and most of them are pretty good guys. Get them started on religion or politics though and they start to turn a different colour! Some of the narrow minded,bigoted,parochial, stuff they come out with is just plain scary! And these are the moderates! Much of the problem comes from what is being preached in the mosques in the western world. I am certainly not trying to demonise Islam.....I admire anyone who has a lot of faith but there are some serious issues facing the western world in the future in regards to how we integrate these people into our society.

 

[stevebaby]

Please cite an instance where christians have rioted, burned, and destroyed because a newspaper printed a cartoon of Jesus?

Let's start with the crusades,the forced conversion of moslems and jews in spain,the burnings of so-called heretics in europe for publishing a different version of the bible,the hunting of witches,the slaughter in "god's"name by the conquistadors in south america to "convert the heathen",the various war-crimes in the balkans,the constant invocation by every western democracy that "god" is on their side,the murder of palestinian refugees by maronites in lebanon,the killings in northern ireland,the murder of jews by orthodox christians in russia...the fact is,more people have died as a result of the christian policy of "love thy neighbour" than any other religion in history.
"christianity" isn't even a coherent religion anyway.Just a loose collection of loony sects who have proven throughout history that whatever moral code they profess to believe in is a farce and a joke.
christianity...it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
christianity...god wanted me to be president...
christianity...us tele-evangelist style...make a donation,"god" will make you rich...
Your unintelligent attempt to explain is valued for its comedic value.

 

[stevebaby]

I work with quite a few Arab and Pakistani men and and most of them are pretty good guys. Get them started on religion or politics though and they start to turn a different colour! Some of the narrow minded,bigoted,parochial, stuff they come out with is just plain scary! And these are the moderates! Much of the problem comes from what is being preached in the mosques in the western world. I am certainly not trying to demonise Islam.....I admire anyone who has a lot of faith but there are some serious issues facing the western world in the future in regards to how we integrate these people into our society.

Sure,I worked with several maronite lebanese who believed that moslem children should be slaughtered,"because they would only grow up".I grew up in the presbyterian church where they believe that catholics are the offspring of satan.
No religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

 

[stevebaby]

David Koresh was pretty nutty. I read all about that incident and there was child abuse going on in that ranch at Waco. This was a really bad character who justified his abuses on the Bible. Of course, I agree the authorities shouldn't have set fire to the building and killed all the cult members, especially the women and children who died.
I don't think you can argue that only one religion breeds extremists. Islam has had a better track record than Christianity for tolerance in historical terminology and it's only recently that Islam has somehow become more aggressive and political.
Even the Nation Of Islam was reasonably non-violent - especially when Malcolm X led the factions.

The local sheriff was informed of the allegations of child abuse against koresh.He was asked why he took no action about the allegation that david koresh was sexually abusing a 13 year old child.
His answer..."Hell,a girl can get married in texas at 14,so I didn't think it was a big deal."
He also wasn't worried about koresh having an arsenal of weapons.Gun ownership is regarded as a right in texas.

 

[stevebaby]

Your views are good and well taken. I think your mention of history is also relevent. We, the western world or first world, have opened our minds or at least learned to accept or tolerate things that we don't agree with or find offensive.
If you grow up with Islam, in the Mid-east, there are hard and fast laws that have not change in centuries. Freedoms and civil liberties, that we in the west take for granted, do not exist in their culture. Now, bring some of these people to the west, where we have freedom of religion, speech, and the press. When cultures collide, there is a good chance of an explosion.
There are extremists in every religion and culture. But Islam seems to have more than their fair share.

Very obviously,you have never lived in a moslem country,or indeed,any country other than your own.
Living on a us base doesn't count.

 

[stevebaby]

Your views are good and well taken. I think your mention of history is also relevent. We, the western world or first world, have opened our minds or at least learned to accept or tolerate things that we don't agree with or find offensive.
If you grow up with Islam, in the Mid-east, there are hard and fast laws that have not change in centuries. Freedoms and civil liberties, that we in the west take for granted, do not exist in their culture. Now, bring some of these people to the west, where we have freedom of religion, speech, and the press. When cultures collide, there is a good chance of an explosion.
There are extremists in every religion and culture. But Islam seems to have more than their fair share.

Pat robertson,who wants to have the president of venezuala assasinated,and who claims to represent the majority of "middle americans",and who is extensively courted by the bush regime because he represents so many americans...this is not an "extremist"?

 

[mocka58]

Pat robertson,who wants to have the president of venezuala assasinated,and who claims to represent the majority of "middle americans",and who is extensively courted by the bush regime because he represents so many americans...this is not an "extremist"?

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make. If you are trying to put down Christianity because of a perceived slight against Islam then say so.
I don't practice any religion exactly because of the loonies who preach this sort of rubbish. As for the Crusades, well it happened a thousand years ago and you know the moslems invaded Europe before that. You can go *** for tat on any subject like that. There are plenty of things for every religion to be ashamed of.
I don't know why you guys get so upset when someone makes a critical observation of Islam. People with these views are living and working amongst us, we have a right to discuss it. I work with a guy who has stated that he would blow himself up at the local shopping centre if he was asked to. How do you think I like hearing that. He has been interviewed by ASIO. No Christians I know are about to go and blow themselves up in a pizza parlour and no one in the MODERN western world gets so upset about religious slights that they go and burn down foreign embassies. They certainly have a right to protest but they should leave it that. Anything more is just violent extremism.
And please, I'm not trying to put you down. Just wish you would have a more balnced view.

 

[Carrera]

Sure, I wouldn't argue with that. But surely the two instances are identical? Roman/Greek society eventually became undermined by Christianity so all the old freedoms disappeared. Pagans were persecuted by Christians in later Roman times. Moslems, on the other hand, have a history of tolerance. However, all that has changed now. The new radical Islam is a different kettle of fish to the Moors in Spain. Those folks in London had banners saying, "Behead those who insult Islam!" and certainly weren't calling for a custodial sentence or fixed fine.
They wanted the death penalty for the cartoonists, just as the Jews wanted to stone that woman in the Bible who committed adultery.
For my part, I oppose theocratic ideals - period. Extremists in London demand governments censor papers that make fun of religion yet here, on this site, China has been criticized for censorship? My view is Blair will buckle and make it illegal to criticize or poke fun at religion. Then that will begin a slippery slope to censorship on other issues, what you say, what you believe, what you think.
History proves this is true. People have been killed for choosing not to believe in God but let me state quite plainly I don't believe in either Christianity, Islam or Judaism. That's my choice and if other folks don't like it that's their problem.

Let's start with the crusades,the forced conversion of moslems and jews in spain,the burnings of so-called heretics in europe for publishing a different version of the bible,the hunting of witches,the slaughter in "god's"name by the conquistadors in south america to "convert the heathen",the various war-crimes in the balkans,the constant invocation by every western democracy that "god" is on their side,the murder of palestinian refugees by maronites in lebanon,the killings in northern ireland,the murder of jews by orthodox christians in russia...the fact is,more people have died as a result of the christian policy of "love thy neighbour" than any other religion in history.
"christianity" isn't even a coherent religion anyway.Just a loose collection of loony sects who have proven throughout history that whatever moral code they profess to believe in is a farce and a joke.
christianity...it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
christianity...god wanted me to be president...
christianity...us tele-evangelist style...make a donation,"god" will make you rich...
Your unintelligent attempt to explain is valued for its comedic value.

 

[Carrera]

I have no doubt in my mind there is a bias towards Islam in this country. I have no idea why. That is, if groups of Christians and Jews had marched through London with banners calling for beheadings, I'm positive the police would have made arrests. And I also pointed out in an article for the paper I've been doing that the police set on the Country Alliance anti-hunt-ban protesters with batons.
Yet in this case we're discussing they (the police) stood and watched. Not only that but they arrested people who tried to take the banners away and many of those banners celebrated the London bombings (yet no U.K. publication published the cartoons).
For some reason, liberals over here somehow see moslems as anti-establishment and representing values we should emulate. What they simply don't grasp is moslems are conservative and are not at all liberal. They don't agree with gender equality, many believe in the death penalty even for lesser crimes and many don't believe in freedom of expression e.t.c.
Those simply aren't my values. Somebody once said a moslem has more in common with George W Bush than with me, for example, as at least Bush believes in God, morality and after-life while I simply don't.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make. If you are trying to put down Christianity because of a perceived slight against Islam then say so.
I don't practice any religion exactly because of the loonies who preach this sort of rubbish. As for the Crusades, well it happened a thousand years ago and you know the moslems invaded Europe before that. You can go *** for tat on any subject like that. There are plenty of things for every religion to be ashamed of.
I don't know why you guys get so upset when someone makes a critical observation of Islam. People with these views are living and working amongst us, we have a right to discuss it. I work with a guy who has stated that he would blow himself up at the local shopping centre if he was asked to. How do you think I like hearing that. He has been interviewed by ASIO. No Christians I know are about to go and blow themselves up in a pizza parlour and no one in the MODERN western world gets so upset about religious slights that they go and burn down foreign embassies. They certainly have a right to protest but they should leave it that. Anything more is just violent extremism.
And please, I'm not trying to put you down. Just wish you would have a more balnced view.

 

[Chance3290]

Very obviously,you have never lived in a moslem country,or indeed,any country other than your own.
Living on a us base doesn't count.

Baby, what's wrong? You sound crabby. That always happens when your second teeth come in.
Anyway, you never answered the question about your vast police expericence. Where were you a police officer, as you said?
As far as countries go, which have you lived in? Length of stay?
These are personal questions that do not take days or weeks to answer. So.....

And I'll repeat my other question. Please inform us of the last time burning and rioting occurred because a newspaper printed a cartoon of Jesus.

And PLEASE, get some adult supervision to show you how to use the computer.

 

[FredC]

I have no doubt in my mind there is a bias towards Islam in this country. I have no idea why. That is, if groups of Christians and Jews had marched through London with banners calling for beheadings, I'm positive the police would have made arrests. And I also pointed out in an article for the paper I've been doing that the police set on the Country Alliance anti-hunt-ban protesters with batons.
Yet in this case we're discussing they (the police) stood and watched. Not only that but they arrested people who tried to take the banners away and many of those banners celebrated the London bombings (yet no U.K. publication published the cartoons).
For some reason, liberals over here somehow see moslems as anti-establishment and representing values we should emulate. What they simply don't grasp is moslems are conservative and are not at all liberal. They don't agree with gender equality, many believe in the death penalty even for lesser crimes and many don't believe in freedom of expression e.t.c.
Those simply aren't my values. Somebody once said a moslem has more in common with George W Bush than with me, for example, as at least Bush believes in God, morality and after-life while I simply don't.

As usual you have failed to note that I previously forecast this scenario, and you have have failed to read The Public Order Act1986. You are just a braindead reactionary. No arrests were made because the Police EGT were operating, they are at this moment sifting through 60 hours of tapes, for two reasons.
PS. I thought that you claimed yourself as being a liberal.

 

[jhuskey]

Let's start with the crusades,the forced conversion of moslems and jews in spain,the burnings of so-called heretics in europe for publishing a different version of the bible,the hunting of witches,the slaughter in "god's"name by the conquistadors in south america to "convert the heathen",the various war-crimes in the balkans,the constant invocation by every western democracy that "god" is on their side,the murder of palestinian refugees by maronites in lebanon,the killings in northern ireland,the murder of jews by orthodox christians in russia...the fact is,more people have died as a result of the christian policy of "love thy neighbour" than any other religion in history.
"christianity" isn't even a coherent religion anyway.Just a loose collection of loony sects who have proven throughout history that whatever moral code they profess to believe in is a farce and a joke.
christianity...it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
christianity...god wanted me to be president...
christianity...us tele-evangelist style...make a donation,"god" will make you rich...
Your unintelligent attempt to explain is valued for its comedic value.

Your point is well based in fact,however please note those that go silently through life with a dedicate moral belief based in their faith.
Those that give of themselves without bias or regard that give up,their wealth and time,those that give organs to strangers,the ones that lay down their lives for others because of unselfish morals.
These individuals never make the news because it is not sensationalism.
Every time I think the human race should be damned to the dark recesses I encounter examples of this process. Where would the world,as in humans, be without them.
An axe can be used as a tool or a weapon,yet does this make the axe a good thing or a bad thing?
Is it this thing "religion" that fails or those that misuse it?

SB: I am just an ingonorant hillbilly, but a stubborn one, and yet to be convinced that a moral belief system is wrong.
Maybe it is the Catfish clouding my mind.

 

[ptlwp]

People need to wake up. The Muslims are what they are. They are angry and they despise the countries and the cultures they move to. Europe has it's hands full and America has had it's problems.
.

Sounds pretty sensible to me.

The strongest and smartest will survive and the weakest and least intelligent will fall and go the way of all flesh. Some things never change.

What are the odds on this one?

 

[Carrera]

I'm a centre liberal. I don't believe in the death penalty, I believe in freedom of speech, gender equality, a secular democratic state as the best means of attaining a free society and also have certain socialist leanings.
Probably what it is is this is a very liberal forum so I appear far more Right-Wing than I am. Just because I read the Mail doesn't mean I share the Mail support for a death penalty (hanging) or support of prison as opposed to rehabilitation e.t.c.
I suppose when Zapper was here he made me look liberal as he was so more right-wing than me.

As usual you have failed to note that I previously forecast this scenario, and you have have failed to read The Public Order Act1986. You are just a braindead reactionary. No arrests were made because the Police EGT were operating, they are at this moment sifting through 60 hours of tapes, for two reasons.
PS. I thought that you claimed yourself as being a liberal.

 

[stevebaby]

Baby, what's wrong? You sound crabby. That always happens when your second teeth come in.
Anyway, you never answered the question about your vast police expericence. Where were you a police officer, as you said?
As far as countries go, which have you lived in? Length of stay?
These are personal questions that do not take days or weeks to answer. So.....

And I'll repeat my other question. Please inform us of the last time burning and rioting occurred because a newspaper printed a cartoon of Jesus.

And PLEASE, get some adult supervision to show you how to use the computer.

Please get someone to show you the search facility at the top of your screen before you post vague and unsubstantiated criticism of my computer skills.

 

[stevebaby]

Your point is well based in fact,however please note those that go silently through life with a dedicate moral belief based in their faith.
Those that give of themselves without bias or regard that give up,their wealth and time,those that give organs to strangers,the ones that lay down their lives for others because of unselfish morals.
These individuals never make the news because it is not sensationalism.
Every time I think the human race should be damned to the dark recesses I encounter examples of this process. Where would the world,as in humans, be without them.
An axe can be used as a tool or a weapon,yet does this make the axe a good thing or a bad thing?
Is it this thing "religion" that fails or those that misuse it?

SB: I am just an ingonorant hillbilly, but a stubborn one, and yet to be convinced that a moral belief system is wrong.
Maybe it is the Catfish clouding my mind.

I agree.(cherish the moment.)
Most people,whatever their religious belief,would like the chance to live out their lives in peace,raise their families,have a decent job and enjoy good health.When I criticise christianity on this forum,it's to point out that islam or any other religion doesn't have a monopoly on looniness or violence.
Fortunately there are more good people than bad in the world.Perhaps it's better to think of the glass as being half-full...that there are more people who are prepared to help and share than not.
In the us,this is called "communism" or "liberalism".
As the us is generally described as a "liberal democracy" (and there can be no kind of democracy other than a liberal one) the denigration of "liberals" by the reperblicans on this forum makes me wonder at their motivation.I wonder,do they also disagree with Adam Smith (a self-described liberal)?


P.S. If you insist on eating a fish that even other fish won't eat,you should try to counter the effects by regularly flushing the system with plenty of water.The addition of malt,hops and yeast will make this more palatable.

 

[Chance3290]

Please get someone to show you the search facility at the top of your screen before you post vague and unsubstantiated criticism of my computer skills.

Answer the questions baby.

 

[stevebaby]

Answer the questions baby.

Or what?

Still can't do a search then?

 

[stevebaby]

Answer the questions baby.

You empty headed animal food trough wiper!I fart in your general direction!Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
So go away or I shall taunt you a second time...

 

[jhuskey]

I agree.(cherish the moment.)
Most people,whatever their religious belief,would like the chance to live out their lives in peace,raise their families,have a decent job and enjoy good health.When I criticise christianity on this forum,it's to point out that islam or any other religion doesn't have a monopoly on looniness or violence.
Fortunately there are more good people than bad in the world.Perhaps it's better to think of the glass as being half-full...that there are more people who are prepared to help and share than not.
In the us,this is called "communism" or "liberalism".
As the us is generally described as a "liberal democracy" (and there can be no kind of democracy other than a liberal one) the denigration of "liberals" by the reperblicans on this forum makes me wonder at their motivation.I wonder,do they also disagree with Adam Smith (a self-described liberal)?


P.S. If you insist on eating a fish that even other fish won't eat,you should try to counter the effects by regularly flushing the system with plenty of water.The addition of malt,hops and yeast will make this more palatable.

In addition I prefer the glass to be completely full......of beer,that is, and delivered to me by a healthy busted "Beer Winch".