[Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]



On 1 Jul, 12:58, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,Squashme
> [email protected] says...
>
> > Well, how about greatest good of the greatest number. Hopefully,
> > making an example of the driver will deter many others and the good
> > produced will outweigh any hurt done to the criminal.

>
> Isn't that called fascism?


Often, yes, but then I call lots of things fascist because I'm a lazy
arguer. But actually I believe that it is called Utilitarianism.
Anyway, on the roads fascism rules. As I said on another group
yesterday:- Why is the "real world" often so hideously right-wing?
 
On 1 Jul, 19:27, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1 Jul, 12:58, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,Squashme
> > [email protected] says...

>
> > > Well, how about greatest good of the greatest number. Hopefully,
> > > making an example of the driver will deter many others and the good
> > > produced will outweigh any hurt done to the criminal.

>
> > Isn't that called fascism?

>
> Often, yes, but then I call lots of things fascist because I'm a lazy
> arguer. But actually I believe that it is called Utilitarianism.
> Anyway, on the roads fascism rules. As I said on another group
> yesterday:- Why is the "real world" often so hideously right-wing?


So guardianists can have a moan. Since i suspect they don't live in
the real world, so they have left wing views, that's my theory anyway,
lol
 
On 1 Jul, 12:58, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Squashme
> [email protected] says...
>
> > Well, how about greatest good of the greatest number. Hopefully,
> > making an example of the driver will deter many others and the good
> > produced will outweigh any hurt done to the criminal.

>
> Isn't that called fascism?


No, its called Utilitarianism. Bentham and Mill were the chief
proponents I think. As a philosophy it has never been bettered, only
most people don't understand it.
 
On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote on 01/07/2007 00:43 +0100:
>
> > in message <[email protected]>, Tom Crispin
> > ('[email protected]') wrote:
> >> It is also justified as a deterrent to others.

>
> > My mother, who did a lot of research in this area, sid that deterrence is
> > largely a myth - criminals by and large do not believe they will be
> > caught, and so are not deterred.

>
> Depends who you are trying to deter. Yes, for many criminals its a
> calculated risk of doing business and for some crimes people are carried
> along by emotion and are not thinking. But as has been pointed out
> before if all cars caught speeding were confiscated and crushed or you
> had automatic imprisonment for running a red light, the vast majority
> would not speed or run red lights. There are some though that would or
> even see it as their challenge to authority.


I severe penalty can only deter if it is coupled with a belief in the
potential offender that they are likely to get caught, and even then I
imagine that how individuals make any evaluations in this area is
complex and highly variable. I imagine (like another debate we know)
that population level stats may help shed light on the outcomes if not
the reasons

best wishes
james
 
On 30 Jun, 20:42, Pyromancer <[email protected]>
wrote:

> >Exactly where is the punishment here? Other than not being able to
> >drive an MV (which isn't really a big deal anyway) the driver gets
> >away with it.

>
> Not driving would have a very major effect on a lot of people's lives.
> They'd probably have to move house, possibly to a less pleasant area, in
> order to be able to still get to work for starters.


For some maybe, but those banned people I have known have got by
pretty easily really. A small inconvenience for taking someones life
through negligence.


>
> Ok, the death penalty for drink driving might
> act as a deterrent (though TBH the jury's out on how much of a deterrent
> the DP actually is - and I'm saying that as a supporter of it), but
> you'd never get that passed in law.
>


I think the possibility of losing your house, your car and much of
your future earnings would be a considerable deterrent to bad
driving, not to mention the loss of minor but nevertheless useful body
parts if the villain continues to drive after the ban. I should say
this would be a much better detergent than the death penalty.

I also think that car deaths are taken too lightly in the localities
where they occur. How about, for example, closing all roads for a mile
around the site of a fatal incident say one month after it occurs,
together with vast coverage in the local media, special church
services etc etc on that day, like a mini Diana. If nothing else,
people would be so put off by the inconvenience and nauseating
pontificating of local community leaders that they might end up
sorting out their driving.

If people still get killed, then close the roads for two days over a
two mile radius, and carry on until either people don't really get
killed any more or MV cannot be relied upon as sole transport.
 
On 30 Jun, 20:42, Pyromancer wrote:
>And while personally I'm all in favour of execution,
> amputation, and other extreme penalties for various offences,


Would you burn their bones Pyromancer?
 
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:44:04 +0100, Simon Brooke wrote:

> in message <[email protected]>, Ace
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk
>>>
>>><http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm>

>>
>> Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
>> which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.
>>
>> What would you have wanted the court to do?

>
> More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
> like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
> and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
> convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
> jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
> out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
> to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
> for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
> they wouldn't get their driving licence back.
>
> Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
> justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
> the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
> out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
> mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.
>
> They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
> exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
> have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
> would say.


Very sensible.

You should send this to both your MP and the Times.
 
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:20:52 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Nick
> [email protected] says...
>> raise the wrote:
>>> On 30 Jun, 14:44, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> in message <[email protected]>, Ace
>>>>
>>>> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk
>>>>>> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm>
>>>>> Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
>>>>> which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.
>>>>> What would you have wanted the court to do?
>>>> More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
>>>> like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
>>>> and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
>>>> convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
>>>> jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
>>>> out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
>>>> to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
>>>> for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
>>>> they wouldn't get their driving licence back.
>>>>
>>>> Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
>>>> justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
>>>> the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
>>>> out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
>>>> mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.
>>>>
>>>> They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
>>>> exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
>>>> have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
>>>> would say.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [email protected] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>>>> ;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
>>>> ;; then Perl is executable line noise
>>>> -- seen on Slashdot.
>>>
>>> Exactly where is the punishment here? Other than not being able to
>>> drive an MV (which isn't really a big deal anyway) the driver gets
>>> away with it.
>>>

>>
>> Punishment?
>>
>> What we are really interested in is preventing the behaviour/crime, both
>> in the offender and in others. Like Simon I suspect prison has as a
>> punishment is of very little deterrent value in cases like this.
>>
>> The logic goes that because people don't expect an accident they don't
>> consider the penalties and hence even severe penalties have very little
>> deterrent effect.
>>
>> It is far more likely that drink drivers do consider the probability of
>> being caught for drink driving, but without any accident involved and it
>> is this penalty that they will consider and be deterred by.
>>
>> The good thing about prolonged driving bans are that they help prevent
>> recidivism and that they don't cost the tax payer.
>>

> Except that banned drivers often continue to drive, repeatedly catching
> them and putting them through the courts costs money, supervising their
> community service costs money ...


For such cases, immediate destruction of the car would be effective.
 
_ wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:20:52 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, Nick
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> The good thing about prolonged driving bans are that they help prevent
>>> recidivism and that they don't cost the tax payer.
>>>

>> Except that banned drivers often continue to drive, repeatedly catching
>> them and putting them through the courts costs money, supervising their
>> community service costs money ...

>
> For such cases, immediate destruction of the car would be effective.


LOL. Would you advocate using a similar measure against shoplifters -
immediate destruction of the shop that were caught breaking the law in?

--
Matt B
 
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:26:13 +0100, Matt B
<"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote:

>_ wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:20:52 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Nick
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> The good thing about prolonged driving bans are that they help prevent
>>>> recidivism and that they don't cost the tax payer.
>>>>
>>> Except that banned drivers often continue to drive, repeatedly catching
>>> them and putting them through the courts costs money, supervising their
>>> community service costs money ...

>>
>> For such cases, immediate destruction of the car would be effective.

>
>LOL. Would you advocate using a similar measure against shoplifters -
>immediate destruction of the shop that were caught breaking the law in?


Immediate destruction of shops that had really lousy customer service
and extortionate prices would be a good start!

LOL
 
In article <[email protected]>, _
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:20:52 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:


> For such cases, immediate destruction of the car would be effective.
>

That would just stop them driving one car, there's nothing to stop them
getting another old banger for £30 (or whatever scrap value is these
days).
 
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as raisethe
<[email protected]> gently breathed:
>On 30 Jun, 20:42, Pyromancer wrote:


>>And while personally I'm all in favour of execution,
>> amputation, and other extreme penalties for various offences,


>Would you burn their bones Pyromancer?


That's an odd question - what would bone-burning achieve?

The object of the death penalty is to permanently prevent re-offending,
and provide the ultimate punishment.

If someone commits one murder or one rape, there's a chance they can be
rehabilitated. But if they're a serial rapist who's been caught and
locked up once and then come out and re-offended, esp if they've done it
say 3 times - then it's clear there's nothing more we can do, so we
either lock them up forever or execute them. It can even be argued that
execution is more humane than 60+ years in jail.

The one thing the DP isn't is a deterrent, as most criminals believe
they'll never be caught.

Back on topic, in terms of dealing with driving offences, what Simon's
suggested is just about perfect. And given that the suspended sentencee
has already been caught, they're more likely to actually be deterred by
the risk of prison.

--
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