Gallbladder surgery

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

Gallbladder cleanses are [censored]. The so-called stones are not stones at all and do not come out of
the gallbladder. The gallbladder holds ~50ml or 1/20 of a liter. The bile duct is about 2-3mm.
Proponents of the cleanses report liters of stones and some 5-8cm across.

As for alternatives, you need to tell us a bit more as to WHY it was suggested that you have your
gallbladder removed. What are your symptoms and what Dx's have been made?

In article <[email hidden]>,

(kevinf) said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

They don't work. Conventional medicine gave up on various approaches to try to "dissolve" or "flush"
gallstones many years ago, because they just don't work. In fact, "flushing" the stones out of the
gallbladder would likely not be a good thing in the absence of a means of removing them from the
biliary tree or somehow dissolving them completely. Serious sequelae of gallstones finding their way
out of the gallbladder and into the common bile duct include cholangitis, jaundice, or even
gallstone pancreatitis. (In fact, these are some of the potential complications of gallstone disease
that prevented by cholecystectomy.) Indeed, it's probably good that "alt meds" can't "flush" the
gallstones out, as it would certainly result in some serious complications and even some deaths.

Regarding alternatives to surgery, it rather depends on the symptoms. In general, if a patient has
no symptoms and just gallstones (and isn't a diabetic), then simply observing is a viable option and
intervening if the gallstones become symptomatic. (A significant percentage of them will never
become symptomatic.) On the other hand, if a patient has symptomatic cholelithiasis and is in decent
health, cholecystectomy is probably indicated. If a patient has ever had a bout of cholecystitis,
the gallbladder should almost certainly come out, unless that patient is a very poor surgical
candidate.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

(kevinf) said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

The "flush" is a hoax ... what is claimed as "stones" is really just the result of the oil and lemon
and other ingredients mixing as they pass thorugh the digestive system.

For starters, REAL gallstones do not float in a toilet bowl.

And, the so-called "stones" from the flush are much larger than the exit duct from the gall
bladder ... it is anatomically impossible to excrete stones larger than the exit without ripping
it wide open.

Go for the surgery. Don't waste your tiime on a useless quack treatment.

Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like politicians invoking morality
and children - grab your wallet and/or your kid and run for your life.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery
From: Tsu Dho Nimh [email hidden]
Date: 2/12/2004 5:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(kevinf) said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

The "flush" is a hoax ... what is claimed as "stones" is really just the result of the oil and
lemon and other ingredients mixing as they pass thorugh the digestive system.

For starters, REAL gallstones do not float in a toilet bowl.

And, the so-called "stones" from the flush are much larger than the exit duct from the gall
bladder ... it is anatomically impossible to excrete stones larger than the exit without ripping
it wide open.

Go for the surgery. Don't waste your tiime on a useless quack treatment.

Tsu Dho Nimh

Another sock puppet for organized medicine.

Best to talk with some who have had actual experience.

tinyurl.com2v443Open ↗

Jan

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

Like everything in life you have to make your own decisions . I just love it when the medical
fraternity come out and state absolutely that something they know screw all about doesn't work . I
know from personal experience just like thousands of others that it does work . I suggest very
strongly that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall bladder , like my
doctor told me before putting me on to the liver cleanse , " You don't throw away the fuel injection
system on your car and then pronounce to the world that you have cured the problem " .

1/Sister in law suffered badly from gallbladder attacks , serious pain and constantly feeling like
she wanted to vomit , feeling bloated etc ,,,,, x-rays , ultra sounds and all the usual money
making BS ,,,,, decision " we have to take your gall bladder out " . I tried to convince her to
see my MD who also practices alternative , no way . Result ? , gall bladder out , guess what else
? just like thousands of others she still has the same symptoms , exactly , no difference ,, been
back to be checked , inspected etc . Result ? , Doctors throw hands in air " we don't know , never
seen this before , sorry , next please "

2/A couple of years earlier I had been suffering from the same problems . My
MD/alternative doctor advised the liver cleanse , went on the Hulda Clarke liver cleanse ,
result - hundreds of gallstones , some as big as marbles , no more pain , no more bloating ,
no more nausea . I do a flush at least twice a year feel great , still have my gallbladder ,
I know it works .

There are always those who love to tell you all the bad [censored] , like you might get a gallstone stuck
in your main duct , seems like they are a bit confused - they say it doesn't work , but if it
doesn't work and remove the gallstones then why are they saying they might get caught ? , never
could figure that one out , seems like a dollar each way to me .

I got a friend who has just cured himself of prostate cancer using B17 ( apricot kernels ) ,
antioxidants and a regime of vitamins , his doctors can't believe it , did they want to know exactly
what he did so they could

oncologists would never have chemo , but they don't mind sending you or me off to get it done ,
screw em , check stuff out yourself , make your own decisions and avoid mainstream medicine as much
as possible.

Here is a good place to start checking out your liver cleanse >
curezone.comliverOpen ↗

Good Luck .

---

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Release Date: 30/01/2004

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery From: Tsu Dho Nimh [email hidden] Date: 2/12/2004
5:31 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(kevinf) said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives.
I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and
what were the results?

The "flush" is a hoax ... what is claimed as "stones" is really just the result of the oil and
lemon and other ingredients mixing as they pass thorugh the digestive system.

For starters, REAL gallstones do not float in a toilet bowl.

And, the so-called "stones" from the flush are much larger than the exit duct from the gall
bladder ... it is anatomically impossible to excrete stones larger than the exit without ripping
it wide open.

Go for the surgery. Don't waste your tiime on a useless quack treatment.

Tsu Dho Nimh

Another sock puppet for organized medicine.

Best to talk with some who have had actual experience.

Of what? Gallstones, or the material that the flushes produce? From the "actual experience"
frequently described by those who have done the flushes, that material is obviously not gallstones,
for the many reasons that those with "actual experience" of real gallstones have mentioned herein.

I don't now about the others here, but I have extracted stones from hundreds of gallbladders and
(mostly) given them to the patient. Hospitals are less happy about doing this these days, so that
fewer lay people may have the opportunity to see what real gallstones are like.

Peter Moran

Hey, I can relate to that also. My wife about 8 years ago had problems and her Doc referred her to
the specialist. I was there when he said that it is best to have the gall bladder out but we decided
not too and there has not been a problem since.

There is a lot of rot going on about gall bladder removals which is part of the surgery MLM in
today's society. Do hope "Quackwatch" is aware of this unnecessary procedure.

Cheers, Rod "BO" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives.
I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and
what were the results?

Like everything in life you have to make your own decisions . I just love

it

Quoted message said:

when the medical fraternity come out and state absolutely that something they know screw all about
doesn't work . I know from personal experience just like thousands of others that it does work . I
suggest very strongly that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall
bladder , like my doctor told me before putting me on to the liver cleanse

,

Quoted message said:

" You don't throw away the fuel injection system on your car and then pronounce to the world that
you have cured the problem " .

1/Sister in law suffered badly from gallbladder attacks , serious pain and constantly feeling like
she wanted to vomit , feeling bloated etc ,,,,, x-rays , ultra sounds and all the usual money
making BS ,,,,, decision "

we

Quoted message said:

have to take your gall bladder out " . I tried to convince her to see my

MD

Quoted message said:

who also practices alternative , no way . Result ? , gall bladder out , guess what else ? just
like thousands of others she still has the same symptoms , exactly , no difference ,, been back to
be checked , inspected etc . Result ? , Doctors throw hands in air " we don't know , never seen
this before , sorry , next please "

2/A couple of years earlier I had been suffering from the same problems . My
MD/alternative doctor advised the liver cleanse , went on the Hulda

Clarke

Quoted message said:

liver cleanse , result - hundreds of gallstones , some as big as marbles , no more pain , no more
bloating , no more nausea . I do a flush at least twice a year feel great , still have my
gallbladder , I know it works .

There are always those who love to tell you all the bad [censored] , like you might get a gallstone
stuck in your main duct , seems like they are a bit confused - they say it doesn't work , but if
it doesn't work and remove

the

Quoted message said:

gallstones then why are they saying they might get caught ? , never could figure that one out ,
seems like a dollar each way to me .

I got a friend who has just cured himself of prostate cancer using B17 ( apricot kernels ) ,
antioxidants and a regime of vitamins , his doctors can't believe it , did they want to know
exactly what he did so they could

Quoted message said:

oncologists would never have chemo , but they don't mind sending you or me off to get it done ,
screw em , check stuff out yourself , make your own decisions and avoid mainstream medicine as
much as possible.

Here is a good place to start checking out your liver cleanse >
curezone.comliverOpen ↗

Good Luck .

---

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- Release Date: 30/01/2004

Hi Rod , From what I have seen of quackwatch it does seem to be kinda slanted toward the main stream
. It's a real shame that people who have genuine stories to tell are always made to seem as they are
all lying . There really are some fantastic things happening in the world of alternative medicine
which never reach the main public arena , doctors and their all powerful groups are to blame for
that , they simply refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes , they would rather believe
the drug companies who send them on holidays and take them to so called seminars in exotic places
.There is a UK organisation called credence who have some great books such as "Cancer Why We Are
Still Dying To Know The Truth " and many others . I have no financial interest in credence
whatsoever , their web site is at > credence.orgcredence.orgOpen ↗ , take a look , we can never have too
much information . Cheers

"Rod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3Q3Xb.54530$Wa.7372@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

Hey, I can relate to that also. My wife about 8 years ago had problems and her Doc referred her to
the specialist. I was there when he said that it is best to have the gall bladder out but we
decided not too and there has not been a problem since.

There is a lot of rot going on about gall bladder removals which is part

of

Quoted message said:

the surgery MLM in today's society. Do hope "Quackwatch" is aware of this unnecessary procedure.

Cheers, Rod "BO" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore
alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this
procedure and what were the results?

Like everything in life you have to make your own decisions . I just

love

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

when the medical fraternity come out and state absolutely that something they know screw all
about doesn't work . I know from personal experience just like thousands of others that it does
work . I suggest very

strongly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall bladder , like my doctor
told me before putting me on to the liver

cleanse

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

" You don't throw away the fuel injection system on your car and then pronounce to the world
that you have cured the problem " .

1/Sister in law suffered badly from gallbladder attacks , serious pain and constantly feeling
like she wanted to vomit , feeling bloated etc ,,,,, x-rays , ultra sounds and all the usual
money making BS ,,,,, decision "

we

Quoted message said:

have to take your gall bladder out " . I tried to convince her to see my

MD

Quoted message said:

who also practices alternative , no way . Result ? , gall bladder out , guess what else ? just
like thousands of others she still has the same symptoms , exactly , no difference ,, been back
to be checked ,

inspected

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

etc . Result ? , Doctors throw hands in air " we don't know , never seen this before , sorry ,
next please "

2/A couple of years earlier I had been suffering from the same problems .

My

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MD/alternative doctor advised the liver cleanse , went on the Hulda

Clarke

Quoted message said:

liver cleanse , result - hundreds of gallstones , some as big as marbles

,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no more pain , no more bloating , no more nausea . I do a flush at least twice a year feel great
, still have my gallbladder , I know it works .

There are always those who love to tell you all the bad [censored] , like you might get a gallstone
stuck in your main duct , seems like they are a

bit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

confused - they say it doesn't work , but if it doesn't work and remove

the

Quoted message said:

gallstones then why are they saying they might get caught ? , never

could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

figure that one out , seems like a dollar each way to me .

I got a friend who has just cured himself of prostate cancer using B17 ( apricot kernels ) ,
antioxidants and a regime of vitamins , his doctors can't believe it , did they want to know
exactly what he did so they

could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

oncologists would never have chemo , but they don't mind sending you or

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

off to get it done , screw em , check stuff out yourself , make your

own

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

decisions and avoid mainstream medicine as much as possible.

Here is a good place to start checking out your liver cleanse >
curezone.comliverOpen ↗

Good Luck .

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database:
365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 -
Release Date: 31/01/2004

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery
From: "BO" qw@nonamewhatsover
Date: 2/13/2004 6:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives.
I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and
what were the results?

Like everything in life you have to make your own decisions . I just love it when the medical
fraternity come out and state absolutely that something they know screw all about doesn't work . I
know from personal experience just like thousands of others that it does work . I suggest very
strongly that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall bladder , like my
doctor told me before putting me on to the liver cleanse , " You don't throw away the fuel
injection system on your car and then pronounce to the world that you have cured the problem " .

1/Sister in law suffered badly from gallbladder attacks , serious pain and constantly feeling like
she wanted to vomit , feeling bloated etc ,,,,, x-rays , ultra sounds and all the usual money
making BS ,,,,, decision " we have to take your gall bladder out " . I tried to convince her to
see my MD who also practices alternative , no way . Result ? , gall bladder out , guess what else
? just like thousands of others she still has the same symptoms , exactly , no difference ,, been
back to be checked , inspected etc . Result ? , Doctors throw hands in air " we don't know ,
never seen this before , sorry , next please "

2/A couple of years earlier I had been suffering from the same problems . My
MD/alternative doctor advised the liver cleanse , went on the Hulda Clarke liver cleanse , result -
hundreds of gallstones , some as big as marbles , no more pain , no more bloating , no more
nausea . I do a flush at least twice a year feel great , still have my gallbladder , I know it
works .

There are always those who love to tell you all the bad [censored] , like you might get a gallstone stuck
in your main duct , seems like they are a bit confused - they say it doesn't work , but if it
doesn't work and remove the gallstones then why are they saying they might get caught ? , never
could figure that one out , seems like a dollar each way to me .

I got a friend who has just cured himself of prostate cancer using B17 ( apricot kernels ) ,
antioxidants and a regime of vitamins , his doctors can't believe it , did they want to know
exactly what he did so they could

Quoted message said:

oncologists would never have chemo , but they don't mind sending you or me off to get it done ,
screw em , check stuff out yourself , make your own decisions and avoid mainstream medicine as much
as possible.

Here is a good place to start checking out your liver cleanse >
curezone.comliverOpen ↗

Good Luck

Thanks for sharing.

Evil organized medicine will not accept the real thing and what works.

Jan

"Rod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey, I can relate to that also. My wife about 8 years ago had problems and her Doc referred her to
the specialist. I was there when he said that it is best to have the gall bladder out but we
decided not too and there has not been a problem since.

There is a lot of rot going on about gall bladder removals which is part

of

Quoted message said:

the surgery MLM in today's society. Do hope "Quackwatch" is aware of this unnecessary procedure.

Cheers, Rod "BO" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore
alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this
procedure and what were the results?

Like everything in life you have to make your own decisions . I just

love

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

when the medical fraternity come out and state absolutely that something they know screw all
about doesn't work . I know from personal experience just like thousands of others that it does
work . I suggest very

strongly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall bladder , like my doctor
told me before putting me on to the liver

cleanse

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

" You don't throw away the fuel injection system on your car and then pronounce to the world
that you have cured the problem " .

1/Sister in law suffered badly from gallbladder attacks , serious pain and constantly feeling
like she wanted to vomit , feeling bloated etc ,,,,, x-rays , ultra sounds and all the usual
money making BS ,,,,, decision "

we

Quoted message said:

have to take your gall bladder out " . I tried to convince her to see my

MD

Quoted message said:

who also practices alternative , no way . Result ? , gall bladder out , guess what else ? just
like thousands of others she still has the same symptoms , exactly , no difference ,, been back
to be checked ,

inspected

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

etc . Result ? , Doctors throw hands in air " we don't know , never seen this before , sorry ,
next please "

A percentage of patients do behave like this, if muscle cramps in the bile ducts are contributing to
symptoms. It is a well-known problem and occurs in up to five per cent of patients: the "post-
cholecystectomy syndrome" (regardless of your doctors pleading ignorance), and cannot be predicted.
It sounds as though she had more than enough symptoms to remove her gallstones, and this will at
least prevent her getting other complications from them.

Your doctors are culpable if they did not warn your sister-in-law of this possibility, especially if
her symptoms were not typical of gallstones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2/A couple of years earlier I had been suffering from the same problems .

My

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MD/alternative doctor advised the liver cleanse , went on the Hulda

Clarke

Quoted message said:

liver cleanse , result - hundreds of gallstones , some as big as marbles

,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no more pain , no more bloating , no more nausea .

The gallbladder duct is usually only a few mm in diameter, and the sphincter that joins the bile
duct to the duodenum is little larger. You cannot pass gallstones the size of a marble unless they
erode through into the bowel directly.

Quoted message said:

I do a flush at least

Quoted message said:

twice a year feel great , still have my gallbladder , I know it works .

Your symptoms are not diagnostic of gallstones. They are common functional symptoms, and if present
in gallstone patients, they are not usually cured by cholecystectomy This is also well known.

Did you even have gallstones?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are always those who love to tell you all the bad [censored] , like you might get a gallstone
stuck in your main duct , seems like they are a

bit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

confused - they say it doesn't work , but if it doesn't work and remove

the

Quoted message said:

gallstones then why are they saying they might get caught ?

Smaller gallstones can pass into the bile duct spontaneously and get caught, causing jaundice or
acute pancreatitis. Your doctors are saying that IF the flush worked there is a risk of such
happening. Actually I think the risk would be low, as such events are not common when gallstone
fragments pass during gallstone dissolution or after extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy.

It is even known that gallbladders can rarely empty themselves of stones spontaneously.

, never could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

figure that one out , seems like a dollar each way to me .

I got a friend who has just cured himself of prostate cancer using B17 ( apricot kernels ) ,
antioxidants and a regime of vitamins , his doctors can't believe it , did they want to know
exactly what he did so they

could

They will be aware of all the studies that failed to show any effect of either Laetrile or vitamins
on human cancers. However, if it was a clear cut case of "cure", and not just someting like a
marginally raised PSA returning to normal, and the patient was not taking any other treatment, then
the doctors should be taking notice of such cases.

Quoted message said:

Like 80% of

Quoted message said:

oncologists would never have chemo

That is a myth. I would like to establish where this arose. Do you have a source for it?

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

, but they don't mind sending you or me

Quoted message said:

off to get it done , screw em , check stuff out yourself , make your

own

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

decisions and avoid mainstream medicine as much as possible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is a good place to start checking out your liver cleanse >
curezone.comliverOpen ↗

Good Luck .

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database:
365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004

BO' qw@nonamewhatsover said:

I suggest very strongly that you check out alternatives before you let them cut out your gall
bladder , like my doctor told me before putting me on to the liver cleanse ,

I very strongly suggest that you have a cholecystectomy before serious, and possibly fatal, sequela
develops due to lack of appropriate aaaand timely treatment.

Quoted message said:

" You don't throw away the fuel injection system on your car and then pronounce to the world that
you have cured the problem " .

We ain't talking about petroleum fueled engines.

I suspect that you have no clue about the anatomy of the bile ducts, not to mention abnormal and
pathologic changes in the system.

Do tell us, "oh great one", what is the physiologic function of the mamallian gall bladder ?

WB

--

"I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
-Yoshimo

My wife was diagnosed with gallstones and needed a gallbladder removal. We did the flushes as
prescribed by the Clark site and with great perceived success got many hundreds of stones out!

Let me tell you this as I was told by many doctors. Those are not stones from your gallbladder!
They are balls of fat possibly from your liver and from the congealed oils that you drink during
the flush.

Almost a year later (last December...yup two months ago) my wife started having gallbladder attacks.
She had only had one a year before. To the hospital and the only thing that stopped the pain was
Demerol injections. It happened again a few nights later and again a few nights after that. Now if
you want to here about pain. She passed out from the pain a collapsed on the bed where I accessed
and began AR because she was not breathing. We booked the operation.

The surgeon did the operation laproscopically but was five seconds from splitting her wide open
because her gallbladder was so hard and packed with stones he couldn't get it out via the largest
hole he cut. Thinking it was cancerous he sent it off to pathology. It turned out to just be severe
scar tissue and we breathed a sigh of relief.

The surgeon offered us $500 if we could flush even one gallstone out. He told us it cannot be done
and I now believe him for most cases. I didn't while we did the flushes. We aggravated the situation
to the point of making 6 hospital emergency visits in December. Now it is over as my wife is back in
her Pilates Classes and other exercises and almost up to full endurance again at 50 YOA.

My advise to you is that if you can get a doctor to co-operate, and do the Ultrasound pictures at
various stages then try the flushes. If they are working....fantastic! If they are not get the
operation done laproscopically as soon as possible before complications can set in and while it
still can be done with a few one inch cuts(no muscle cuts) If a stone gets caught in the bile duct
tube, your liver, gall bladder (just pain) and your pancreas are in trouble and so are you. You will
be split from side to side through all your abdominals and be unable to use them for half a year.

Best of luck! My heart goes out to you.

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives. I
have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what
were the results?

(Jan) said:

Another sock puppet for organized medicine.

Best to talk with some who have had actual experience.

Janniie-poo ... I do have actual experience with gallstones, having handled a lot of them in the lab
after surgrey. They were far too large and hard to be "flushed" out of the gallbladder. The exit
duct was smaller than the stones.

Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like politicians invoking morality
and children - grab your wallet and/or your kid and run for your life.

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true, to highlight the important points The 'flushes' do
nothing; except perhaps postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

Gymmy Bob said:

My wife was diagnosed with gallstones and needed a gallbladder removal. We did the flushes as
prescribed by the Clark site and with great perceived success got many hundreds of stones out!

Let me tell you this as I was told by many doctors. Those are not stones from your gallbladder!
They are balls of fat possibly from your liver and from the congealed oils that you drink during
the flush.

Right

Quoted message said:

Almost a year later (last December...yup two months ago) my wife started having gallbladder
attacks. She had only had one a year before. To the hospital and the only thing that stopped the
pain was Demerol injections. It happened again a few nights later and again a few nights after
that. Now if you want to here about pain. She passed out from the pain a collapsed on the bed where
I accessed and began AR because she was not breathing. We booked the operation.

The surgeon did the operation laproscopically but was five seconds from splitting her wide open
because her gallbladder was so hard and packed with stones he couldn't get it out via the largest
hole he cut. Thinking it was cancerous he sent it off to pathology. It turned out to just be severe
scar tissue and we breathed a sigh of relief.

Good.

Quoted message said:

The surgeon offered us $500 if we could flush even one gallstone out. He told us it cannot be done
and I now believe him for most cases.

Right. Read the following statements closely.

Quoted message said:

I didn't while we did the flushes. We aggravated the situation to the point of making 6 hospital
emergency visits in December. Now it is over as my wife is back in her Pilates Classes and other
exercises and almost up to full endurance again at 50 YOA.

Expensive delay. Not just monetary, healthwise.

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is that if you can get a doctor to co-operate, and do the Ultrasound pictures at
various stages then try the flushes. If they are working....fantastic! If they are not get the
operation done laproscopically as soon as possible before complications can set in and while it
still can be done with a few one inch cuts(no muscle cuts)

Now here is the most important statement: Reiterate, this is the most important statement:

Quoted message said:

If a stone gets caught in the bile duct tube, your liver, gall bladder (just pain) and your
pancreas are in trouble and so are you.

Sequela follows,

Quoted message said:

You will be split from side to side through all your abdominals and be unable to use them for
half a year.

moral of the story: wait and you will suffer more.

Quoted message said:

Best of luck! My heart goes out to you.

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am keen to explore alternatives.
I have seen methods for "flushing" the stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and
what were the results?

Just for the record, this is the only time that I have ever agreed with GymmyB

WB

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

(Jan) said:

Another sock puppet for organized medicine.

Best to talk with some who have had actual experience.

Janniie-poo ... I do have actual experience with gallstones, having handled a lot of them in the
lab after surgrey. They were far too large and hard to be "flushed" out of the gallbladder. The
exit duct was smaller than the stones.

And, on the occasions when they occasionally do somehow manage to find their way out of the
gallbladder and into the common bile duct, they have a propensity to cause serious complications,
such as biliary obstruction resulting in cholangitis or gallstone pancreatitis.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

WB said:

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true, to highlight the important points The 'flushes' do
nothing; except perhaps postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

There's no evidence that flushes even manage to delay the need for surgery. Rather, it is the
patient's misplaced faith in the flushes that results in delay of surgery to a point when the
disease process has progressed and the surgery is more difficult. (Usually they don't acknowledge
that the flushings aren't working until they continue to get repeated bouts of severe biliary cholic
or even acute cholecystitis while doing the flushes. By that time, they may have delayed needed
surgery for months or even years.) Hopefully, it doesn't result in a delay in surgery to the point
where the potentially life-threatening complications of gallstones set in, such as acute
cholecystitis, ascending cholangitis, or gallstone pancreatitis. Oh, and as a side note, if you get
gallstone pancreatitis, your pancreas can end up being screwed up for life, making you prone to
repeated bouts of pancreatitis, even after the gallbladder is out. If you've ever seen a patient
with a nasty case of chronic pancreatitis, you know how miserable that patient is and how often he
or she has to be hospitalized for acute flareups, etc.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true, to highlight the important points The 'flushes' do
nothing; except perhaps postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

There's no evidence that flushes even manage to delay the need for surgery. Rather, it is the
patient's misplaced faith in the flushes that results in delay of surgery to a point when the
disease process has progressed and the surgery is more difficult. (Usually they don't acknowledge
that the flushings aren't working until they continue to get repeated bouts of severe biliary
cholic or even acute cholecystitis while doing the flushes. By that time, they may have delayed
needed surgery for months or even years.) Hopefully, it doesn't result in a delay in surgery to
the point where the potentially life-threatening complications of gallstones set in, such as acute
cholecystitis, ascending cholangitis, or gallstone pancreatitis. Oh, and as a side note, if you
get gallstone pancreatitis, your pancreas can end up being screwed up for life, making you prone
to repeated bouts of pancreatitis, even after the gallbladder is out. If you've ever seen a
patient with a nasty case of chronic pancreatitis, you know how miserable that patient is and how
often he or she has to be hospitalized for acute flareups, etc.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."

I am sure Orac will agree that the problem with gallstones is that their behaviour is quite
unpredictable, so that quack treatments can sometimes look good. . A person can have one or two
attacks of pain, and then go for years without another one. Some who don't have their gallbladder
out will end up carrying their gallstones to the grave without further trouble.

Others will be less lucky. A patient of mine died of severe gallstone pancreatitis despite our best
efforts, and was found to have been in another hospital just a few months before with gallbladder
colic. She had not undergone surgery because she was very obese, and was trying to lose weight
before the operation.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article
<[email hidden]
.au>,

Peter Moran said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true, to highlight the important points The 'flushes'
do nothing; except perhaps postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

There's no evidence that flushes even manage to delay the need for surgery. Rather, it is the
patient's misplaced faith in the flushes that results in delay of surgery to a point when the
disease process has progressed and the surgery is more difficult. (Usually they don't
acknowledge that the flushings aren't working until they continue to get repeated bouts of
severe biliary cholic or even acute cholecystitis while doing the flushes. By that time, they
may have delayed needed surgery for months or even years.) Hopefully, it doesn't result in a
delay in surgery to the point where the potentially life-threatening complications of gallstones
set in, such as acute cholecystitis, ascending cholangitis, or gallstone pancreatitis. Oh, and
as a side note, if you get gallstone pancreatitis, your pancreas can end up being screwed up for
life, making you prone to repeated bouts of pancreatitis, even after the gallbladder is out. If
you've ever seen a patient with a nasty case of chronic pancreatitis, you know how miserable
that patient is and how often he or she has to be hospitalized for acute flareups, etc.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."

I am sure Orac will agree that the problem with gallstones is that their behaviour is quite
unpredictable, so that quack treatments can sometimes look good.

True enough. It's also true for many diseases. Clinical variability in disease course is one reason
why anecdotal evidence is of so little value. Alties never seem to understand this very basic fact,
no matter how many times we try to explain it.

Quoted message said:

A person can have one or two attacks of pain, and then go for years without another one. Some who
don't have their gallbladder out will end up carrying their gallstones to the grave without
further trouble.

I would want to add to this that it is usually not the symptomatic patients who will go to the grave
without further trouble from their gallstones (although certainly there are a few who will). If a
person has an attack of biliary colic, it is at least 2/3 likely that that person will have another
serious attack within 2 years. On the other hand, it is true that there are many people with
asymptomatic gallstones out there. Less than 1/3 of patients with gallstones ever develop serious
symptoms. That's why cholecystectomy is usually reserved for symptomatic patients, although
exceptions are sometimes made for patients with sickle cell anemia (for whom progression is more
rapid) or for people at a higher risk for gallbladder cancer, such as patients with gallbladder
polyps, "porcelain gallbladder," or very large gallstones.

Quoted message said:

Others will be less lucky. A patient of mine died of severe gallstone pancreatitis despite our
best efforts, and was found to have been in another hospital just a few months before with
gallbladder colic. She had not undergone surgery because she was very obese, and was trying to
lose weight before the operation.

A tough call, whether to have her try to lose weight first or just to do the surgery.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Best to talk with some who have had actual experience.

Janniie-poo ..

PLONK!

The sound of jds typographical excrement impacting the 'net ?

We report, you decide.

WB