Getting better at Climbing out of the saddle

[ridiculous]

I have a question concerning climbing out of the saddle. I have read in many books, etc. that natural climbers tend to excel at climbing out of the saddle...that they almost dance on the pedals. I see my favorite cyclists like Tom Danielson and other climbers getting out of the saddle a lot on climbs and stay out of the saddle for minutes at a time. I am a lightweight, small rider as well and I tend to do pretty well on the climbs...however, for some reason, I find myself climbing seated most of the time pushing a cadence of 75-80 rpms and with most of the physical strain coming from leg fatigue (not cardio)...is this the right way to go first of all? And as for climbing out of the saddle...I feel like I am not very good at it. My legs seem to start burning pretty bad after 10-15 seconds of it and I end up going back to being seated...sometimes, on steep climbs, my speed doesn't even change when I stand. How do I work on building up greater tolerance for climbing out of the saddle and what is proper technique anyways for climbing out of the saddle? I already do a ton of threshold work and I really do feel like I have developed a solid tolerance for latic acid in my legs...but climbing out of the saddle for me (while I would like to be good at it and be able to do it for long periods of time like pro climbers) toasts my legs quickly.

 

[ZimboNC]

I wish someone would answer this because it's pertinent to me as well.

--Steve

 

[Spunout]

I have a question concerning climbing out of the saddle. I have read in many books, etc. that natural climbers tend to excel at climbing out of the saddle...that they almost dance on the pedals. I see my favorite cyclists like Tom Danielson and other climbers getting out of the saddle a lot on climbs and stay out of the saddle for minutes at a time. I am a lightweight, small rider as well and I tend to do pretty well on the climbs...however, for some reason, I find myself climbing seated most of the time pushing a cadence of 75-80 rpms and with most of the physical strain coming from leg fatigue (not cardio)...is this the right way to go first of all? And as for climbing out of the saddle...I feel like I am not very good at it. My legs seem to start burning pretty bad after 10-15 seconds of it and I end up going back to being seated...sometimes, on steep climbs, my speed doesn't even change when I stand. How do I work on building up greater tolerance for climbing out of the saddle and what is proper technique anyways for climbing out of the saddle? I already do a ton of threshold work and I really do feel like I have developed a solid tolerance for latic acid in my legs...but climbing out of the saddle for me (while I would like to be good at it and be able to do it for long periods of time like pro climbers) toasts my legs quickly.

Cadence is too low on both accounts?

Other than that, practice climbing out of the saddle more. On an undulating climb, you could climb seated with a high cadence and then standing in a lower cadence on corners and steep ramps.

Try climbing 10 rpm seated and 10rpm standing. Stand to bring your RPM to 100 and then allow it to creep back down when sitting. Stand to bring it back up again. You may also shift 1-2 cogs harder when standing (cadence 80) and back down when sitting (cadence 100) all while maintaining the same speed and power.

You'll figure out what works best for you.

 

[kmavm]

I have a question concerning climbing out of the saddle. I have read in many books, etc. that natural climbers tend to excel at climbing out of the saddle...that they almost dance on the pedals. I see my favorite cyclists like Tom Danielson and other climbers getting out of the saddle a lot on climbs and stay out of the saddle for minutes at a time. I am a lightweight, small rider as well and I tend to do pretty well on the climbs...however, for some reason, I find myself climbing seated most of the time pushing a cadence of 75-80 rpms and with most of the physical strain coming from leg fatigue (not cardio)...

"Dancing on the pedals" is a result of a high cadence. High cadence is the result of either really little gears, or really high power. Your heros (Tom D., Lance, etc.) are probably capable of sustaining power outputs almost twice as high as yours. Don't worry about what they do; do what comes naturally to you, keep climbing, play around with seated and standing positions, and your mind and muscles will sort it out in time.

 

[RipVanCommittee]

sometimes, on steep climbs, my speed doesn't even change when I stand. How do I work on building up greater tolerance for climbing out of the saddle and what is proper technique anyways for climbing out of the saddle? I already do a ton of threshold work and I really do feel like I have developed a solid tolerance for latic acid in my legs...but climbing out of the saddle for me (while I would like to be good at it and be able to do it for long periods of time like pro climbers) toasts my legs quickly.

You've really answered your own question...the best technique for climbing out of the saddle if probably doing what you're doing--sitting and spinning at your self-selected cadence!

I've never been big on the much used "Lance does this"...but he's a pretty good example of a guy who became a better climber when he stopped standing so much!

A couple of points:

1)purely from a mechanical standpoint, sitting is more efficient.

2)from an aerodynamic standpoint, you'd be suprised just how much of a difference standing can hurt you on some pretty decents grades (6-8%). I've done the modelling on analyticcycling, and it's pretty suprising...on a 6% grade, I'm throwing away about 15-18 watts when standind, IIRC.

3)This is a comment that is sooo overused, but totally applicable here--don't put much stock into what your favorite pro does...and realize that you probably aren't aware of what he/she is really doing on a 30 minute climb. When attacking (and getting TV time), or when about to get dropped! (more TV time), standing up makes sense to put in a sudden, hard effort. It's not very efficient, though. Also, europros forever have been over-geared--10 years ago many non-climbing domestics where riding up Ventoux with a 12-23...and are forced to stand. Fortunately, that trend is going away.

If your goal is to climb as fast as possible, my advice: keep doing what you're doing! You should only be standing when attacking, or when you're trying to punch up a very short/steep section within a small climb, and just to give your sensetive bits a bit of a break.

If your goal is simply to get better at climbing while standing, well then, I'd do lots of climbing while standing!!

 

[RapDaddyo]

There is a technique to climbing out of the saddle at a high cadence and using as little energy as possible. The keys are rhythm and timing of the stroke, tilting the bike from side to side and positioning your weight directly over the crank on the downstroke. Most cyclists waste a lot of energy climbing out of the saddle, either because they climb at too low a cadence or because they use a lot of upper body thrashing the bike from side to side trying to emulate the pros. Try this drill at a cadence ~90-100rpm on the flat or a slight upgrade. It's harder to describe than to demonstrate, but bear with me. Start off with just 2 complete crank rotations (4 downstrokes). The timing is critical and resembles a dance step more than cycling. You position your full body weight over the pedal and tilt the bike (25 degrees is optimal, IIRC) on the downstroke. At the bottom of the downstroke, you pull the bike across to the other tilt angle and position your full body weight over the pedal for the other leg. Your upper body moves very little, because it is the bike that is getting repositioned for each stroke. The bottom of the downstroke is where everything happens in a hurry, because the entire motion takes place in about 1/10 second. The reason I suggest that you start with 2 crank rotations is because you can get all screwed up on your timing if you try to learn it as a continuous stroke right away. So, you do 2 rotations, pause and coast, 2 more, pause and coast, etc. Then, you do 3 rotations (6 downstrokes) at a time. Then, 4, then 5, etc. Eventually, you'll get the timing and rhythm down and you can do it continuously at 90-100rpm. Then, you can try it on a hill. When it all clicks in, it's fun and cool and fast. On long climbs, even though I generally prefer to climb in the saddle, I always climb out of the saddle every 15 mins or so to rest my back and use different muscles. Hope this helps.

 

[endurance222]

I had the same question, this article is in the article section of this forum under hills/climbing tips under the popular articles

STAY SEATED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
Although you develop more power while standing (taking advantage of your upper body weight), you also use 10 to 12% more energy as you work your arm and back muscles. So climbing while seated is more efficient. On short climbs, the length of a football field or less, it makes little difference. But on longer climbs, stay in the saddle and spin at 80 - 85 RPM. This is particularly so if you are heavier as standing puts just that much more weight on your leg muscles, while sitting uses the seat to help take the extra upper body weight off your legs. Staying in the saddle will:
burn less energy - heart rate is approximately 8% lower for any set speed
use your bigger gluteal (butt) and hip muscles to your advantage
So whenever possible, stay seated on that hill.

SIT BACK ON THE SADDLE
When you slide back on your seat, you gain a leverage advantage on the pedals. The only time you would want to slide forward is for a short sprint on a small rise.

UPPER BODY STILL AND CHEST OPEN
Keep your upper body quiet - the bike should rock under you (try pulling up on the handlebar opposite of the leg on a down stroke). Too much movement wastes energy. And your shoulders should be back and "open". If not, you are constricting your chest and cannot breathe efficiently.

WHEN YOU MUST STAND
If you must stand, remember to power into BOTH the down and up strokes - 12 to 5 o'clock on the down stroke and 7 to 10 o'clock on the upstroke. This will help to maintain a smooth stroke and your momentum. Don't lean too far forward. If the nose of your saddle is brushing the back of your thighs, you are just right. Farther forward and you will lose power. Let the bike move fluidly under you. Don’t force it. And remember to shift up a gear or two just before you stand to take advantage of the extra power you gain from standing (but which you can’t maintain for any length of time).

FIND YOUR SPEED AND RHYTHM
Climbing should always be done in your comfort zone. Ride at your own pace - Know your limits and listen to your body. If you become anaerobic, you won't recover, so let faster riders go. It's a common mistake: Trying to keep up with better climbers on the lower slopes, then reaching your limits and losing big hunks of time. Take it a bit easier and you have a much better chance of catching them later. You don’t want to over exert and go anaerobic.
Gear down before the hill. The goal is to avoid producing large quantities of lactic acid and then pedaling through the pain. You want a sustainable rhythm. Try to keep your cadence above 70 -- any slower puts excess stress on your knees. The optimum spin rates for efficient pedaling are somewhere between 70 and 80. One rider reported that he actually went faster as he increased his cadence in a lower gear. For example, he would maintain 6.5 mph at 50 rpm in one gear and then, as he geared down, he found he maintained 8 mph at 70 rpm without a perceived increase in effort.

Try to find the cadence that would let you "climb all day". You are pushing too hard if you:

• Can't keep a smooth pedal stroke
• Are panting or breathing irregularly

Ride your own pace. The energy you save may help you catch someone who started too fast near the summit.

BREATHING
If you start to breathe irregularly, take a deep breath and hold it for a few pedal strokes. Try synchronizing your breathing with your pedal stroke - start by taking a breath every time one foot (your right one for example) reaches the bottom of a stroke. Then try 1 1/2, and finally every two strokes. You will actually deliver more oxygen to your system with a controlled rate than an irregular panting or gasping one.

HAND POSITION
Comfort overrides these comments, but for seated climbing, most riders prefer to keep their hands on top of the bars, perhaps 2 or 3 inches from the center stem. And remember to drop your elbows and relax your upper body.
For out of the saddle climbing or aggressive climbs (where you are accelerating or attacking on the saddle) put your thumbs on the hoods and rest one or two fingers on the levers or wrapped around underneath. And when you get to that descent, most riders will go to the drops (keeping your wrists straight) for the aerodynamic advantages although others prefer the hoods for the feeling of control. But not the top of the bars as your hands will be too far from the brakes.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Climbing should always be done in your comfort zone. Ride at your own pace - Know your limits and listen to your body. If you become anaerobic, you won't recover, so let faster riders go. It's a common mistake: Trying to keep up with better climbers on the lower slopes, then reaching your limits and losing big hunks of time. Take it a bit easier and you have a much better chance of catching them later. You don’t want to over exert and go anaerobic.

I don't agree with this part of the article. Uphill and upwind are exactly where you want to ride at a power level greater than you can sustain for the whole ride. Depending on the length of the climb and the length of the descent (if there is a descent following the cimb), you might even want to fully exhaust your anaerobic work capacity. In mass start races, you usually don't have a choice because someone is probably going to attack on a hill, especially if their advantage is their w/kg. The advice in the article ignores the interplay between the physics and the physiology involved.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Here's another article, pretty well done http://www.imt.net/~yvcc/jeff_hill/roadclimbing.standing.htm.

 

[ridiculous]

ok...what about pedal cadence? What is typical pedal cadence when standing for 1. just standing to utilizae different muscle groups 2. attacking/accelerating.

I am wondering one other thing about the pedal stroke when standing...how can you pull through the bottom of the stroke and kick over the top? It's kind of hard with your weight pretty much going straight down...I find it that when your pedal cadence gets really high, it's really hard to pull smoothly through the bottom of the stroke because the pedals are turning so fast, the motion is more like pistons pumping straight up and down really fast...what gives?

 

[RapDaddyo]

ok...what about pedal cadence? What is typical pedal cadence when standing for 1. just standing to utilizae different muscle groups 2. attacking/accelerating.

Personally, I think this varies by individual. I prefer a high cadence, but I favor a high cadence on the saddle as well, including climbing.

I am wondering one other thing about the pedal stroke when standing...how can you pull through the bottom of the stroke and kick over the top? It's kind of hard with your weight pretty much going straight down...I find it that when your pedal cadence gets really high, it's really hard to pull smoothly through the bottom of the stroke because the pedals are turning so fast, the motion is more like pistons pumping straight up and down really fast...what gives?

At least for me, I don't pull through the bottom. The momentum from the downstroke brings the other pedal over the top and positions it for the body-weight downstroke. If my cadence is too low then, yes, I feel as though I am forcing the pedal over the top. But, that means I am in the wrong gear. I think you just have to play with it to find your rhythm.

 

[vchu7105]

Make it a goal to ride to ride out of the saddle 5 min at a time, until you can ride for half an hour straight to an hour if you want.

I have a question concerning climbing out of the saddle. I have read in many books, etc. that natural climbers tend to excel at climbing out of the saddle...that they almost dance on the pedals. I see my favorite cyclists like Tom Danielson and other climbers getting out of the saddle a lot on climbs and stay out of the saddle for minutes at a time. I am a lightweight, small rider as well and I tend to do pretty well on the climbs...however, for some reason, I find myself climbing seated most of the time pushing a cadence of 75-80 rpms and with most of the physical strain coming from leg fatigue (not cardio)...is this the right way to go first of all? And as for climbing out of the saddle...I feel like I am not very good at it. My legs seem to start burning pretty bad after 10-15 seconds of it and I end up going back to being seated...sometimes, on steep climbs, my speed doesn't even change when I stand. How do I work on building up greater tolerance for climbing out of the saddle and what is proper technique anyways for climbing out of the saddle? I already do a ton of threshold work and I really do feel like I have developed a solid tolerance for latic acid in my legs...but climbing out of the saddle for me (while I would like to be good at it and be able to do it for long periods of time like pro climbers) toasts my legs quickly.

 

[azdroptop]

On your next climbing day try this:

30 secs stand, 30 sit, 60 stand, 60 sit, 90 stand 90 sit. Sit and recover for 10 minutes then repeat. Start with 2 of these per climbing day then increase the times to 60/60, 120/120, 180/180.

 

[n crowley]

"Dancing on the pedals" is a result of a high cadence.

I believe it is a more powerful style of pedalling when out of the saddle. It's done by instant unweighting of power pedal at the end of the stroke and allows you to take full advantage of your total bodyweight from start to finish of each power application to the pedal.

 

[dm69]

I had the same question, this article is in the article section of this forum under hills/climbing tips under the popular articles

STAY SEATED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
Although you develop more power while standing (taking advantage of your upper body weight), you also use 10 to 12% more energy as you work your arm and back muscles. So climbing while seated is more efficient. On short climbs, the length of a football field or less, it makes little difference. But on longer climbs, stay in the saddle and spin at 80 - 85 RPM. This is particularly so if you are heavier as standing puts just that much more weight on your leg muscles, while sitting uses the seat to help take the extra upper body weight off your legs. Staying in the saddle will:
burn less energy - heart rate is approximately 8% lower for any set speed
use your bigger gluteal (butt) and hip muscles to your advantage
So whenever possible, stay seated on that hill.

SIT BACK ON THE SADDLE
When you slide back on your seat, you gain a leverage advantage on the pedals. The only time you would want to slide forward is for a short sprint on a small rise.

UPPER BODY STILL AND CHEST OPEN
Keep your upper body quiet - the bike should rock under you (try pulling up on the handlebar opposite of the leg on a down stroke). Too much movement wastes energy. And your shoulders should be back and "open". If not, you are constricting your chest and cannot breathe efficiently.

WHEN YOU MUST STAND
If you must stand, remember to power into BOTH the down and up strokes - 12 to 5 o'clock on the down stroke and 7 to 10 o'clock on the upstroke. This will help to maintain a smooth stroke and your momentum. Don't lean too far forward. If the nose of your saddle is brushing the back of your thighs, you are just right. Farther forward and you will lose power. Let the bike move fluidly under you. Don’t force it. And remember to shift up a gear or two just before you stand to take advantage of the extra power you gain from standing (but which you can’t maintain for any length of time).

FIND YOUR SPEED AND RHYTHM
Climbing should always be done in your comfort zone. Ride at your own pace - Know your limits and listen to your body. If you become anaerobic, you won't recover, so let faster riders go. It's a common mistake: Trying to keep up with better climbers on the lower slopes, then reaching your limits and losing big hunks of time. Take it a bit easier and you have a much better chance of catching them later. You don’t want to over exert and go anaerobic.
Gear down before the hill. The goal is to avoid producing large quantities of lactic acid and then pedaling through the pain. You want a sustainable rhythm. Try to keep your cadence above 70 -- any slower puts excess stress on your knees. The optimum spin rates for efficient pedaling are somewhere between 70 and 80. One rider reported that he actually went faster as he increased his cadence in a lower gear. For example, he would maintain 6.5 mph at 50 rpm in one gear and then, as he geared down, he found he maintained 8 mph at 70 rpm without a perceived increase in effort.

Try to find the cadence that would let you "climb all day". You are pushing too hard if you:

• Can't keep a smooth pedal stroke
• Are panting or breathing irregularly

Ride your own pace. The energy you save may help you catch someone who started too fast near the summit.

BREATHING
If you start to breathe irregularly, take a deep breath and hold it for a few pedal strokes. Try synchronizing your breathing with your pedal stroke - start by taking a breath every time one foot (your right one for example) reaches the bottom of a stroke. Then try 1 1/2, and finally every two strokes. You will actually deliver more oxygen to your system with a controlled rate than an irregular panting or gasping one.

HAND POSITION
Comfort overrides these comments, but for seated climbing, most riders prefer to keep their hands on top of the bars, perhaps 2 or 3 inches from the center stem. And remember to drop your elbows and relax your upper body.
For out of the saddle climbing or aggressive climbs (where you are accelerating or attacking on the saddle) put your thumbs on the hoods and rest one or two fingers on the levers or wrapped around underneath. And when you get to that descent, most riders will go to the drops (keeping your wrists straight) for the aerodynamic advantages although others prefer the hoods for the feeling of control. But not the top of the bars as your hands will be too far from the brakes.

This whole thread is nonsense! WAY to much analysis! Standing on the pedals is a good way to nail those short steep climbs and also a good way to relieve the muscles you use while sitting. There are no secrets to climbing well, except for power to weight incase you haven't noticed already

just do what feels natural to you, look at the styles of virenque vs ullrich!

PS:climbing aint pretty so dont even bother trying to overanylyse your technique!

 

[n crowley]

There are no secrets to climbing well, except for power to weight incase you haven't noticed already.

So if you can make better use of your weight to increase power by unweighting or dancing on the pedals, it is worthwhile perfecting the technique especially if you are a lightweight rider. The dead spot area has a negative effect on overall power application when climbing, the correct unweighting technique will also reduce this effect by giving an earlier start to a more powerful downstroke.

 

[netscriber]

So if you can make better use of your weight to increase power by unweighting or dancing on the pedals, it is worthwhile perfecting the technique especially if you are a lightweight rider. The dead spot area has a negative effect on overall power application when climbing, the correct unweighting technique will also reduce this effect by giving an earlier start to a more powerful downstroke.

True. I am 47lbs and when I first started feeling something weird about my out of the saddle riding I realized that there was a huge delay between me switching between strokes. IOW the switch has to be really well timed, otherwise I looked like I was being bounced by the bike!