Horst on suspension: Old School or New?

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Doug Taylor, May 5, 2003.

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  1. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    In the June issue of Mountain Bike, Horst Leitner (inventor of the Horst Link used on such f.s.
    bikes as Titus Racer X, Specialized FSR, and his own, now defunct, AMPs) is quoted as follows:

    WORST SUSPENSION INNOVATION? - "Bikes like the Santa Cruz Blur. They're too heavy because they
    don't use their suspension element as a structural member to keep weight down and to maximize
    rigidity. The VPP has too many pivots, which makes it too flexy. Our bikes from 10 years ago are
    probably more rigid."

    INNOVATION YOU ADMIRE MOST? " The mountain bike industry is going backwards, so I can't admire
    anything. Manufacturers are moving more and more toward freeride bikes. The result is a shrinking
    market. There's no way to make money there. They should be making bikes that are light, suspended
    and comfortable. Instead, they're making bikes with tons of travel, and they're getting stuck with
    them. As for DH bikes, they're good for a few sales, then it's over."

    STILL TO COME? "I don't know. Right now no one's headed in the right direction. If someone comes up
    with something better than an AMP-type suspension design, maybe. But so far, no one has."

    From this and other quotes, it's clear the guy is full of himself, though maybe with some
    justification. My gut is that he has a point, as I'm biased in favor of x-c and light bikes.

    So, is the guy just a cantankerous, out of touch reactionary or still a visionary?

    -dt
     
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  2. Mark B

    Mark B Guest

    He sounds hokie but I know one thing for sure. My 2003 Titus Racer-X kicks butt. I've put it through
    hell and back and it's always there for me and does what I ask. It may be 10 year old technology but
    I really love it. My Sugar was awful...broken parts, poor shifting, waggy rear end, etc., etc.

    I don't care if it's old technology...it works like a champ. The Blur did feel real good when I
    rode one. It felt nice climbing but it's too elevated in my opinion...A lot of these new bikes feel
    kind of motorcrossy if you know what I mean. I guess the new term is "trailbikes" not freeride and
    not racey XC. The Hammerhead and Blur both seem to fit this new "trailbike" designation. I wanted
    racey XC for the tight, twisty, technical Carolina trails. That's why I choose the Racer-X...it
    loves it out here.

    I like the new bikes but brains, VPP, +4" travel, etc., just weren't for me.

    It would be a tough choice if that's what you're after. I'm not sure what I'd choose in that
    catagory...probably an Enduro..but the Blur or Hammerhead would be nice too.

    As for racey XC I think the Racer-X still rules!...That Truth ain't so bad either.

    Mark
     
  3. Slacker

    Slacker Guest

    "Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In the June issue of Mountain Bike, Horst Leitner (inventor of the Horst Link used on such f.s.
    > bikes as Titus Racer X, Specialized FSR, and his own, now defunct, AMPs) is quoted as follows:
    >
    > WORST SUSPENSION INNOVATION? - "Bikes like the Santa Cruz Blur. They're too heavy because they
    > don't use their suspension element as a structural member to keep weight down and to maximize
    > rigidity. The VPP has too many pivots, which makes it too flexy. Our bikes from 10 years ago are
    > probably more rigid."
    >
    > INNOVATION YOU ADMIRE MOST? " The mountain bike industry is going backwards, so I can't admire
    > anything. Manufacturers are moving more and more toward freeride bikes. The result is a shrinking
    > market. There's no way to make money there. They should be making bikes that are light, suspended
    > and comfortable. Instead, they're making bikes with tons of travel, and they're getting stuck with
    > them. As for DH bikes, they're good for a few sales, then it's over."
    >
    > STILL TO COME? "I don't know. Right now no one's headed in the right direction. If someone comes
    > up with something better than an AMP-type suspension design, maybe. But so far, no one has."
    >
    > From this and other quotes, it's clear the guy is full of himself, though maybe with some
    > justification. My gut is that he has a point, as I'm biased in favor of x-c and light bikes.
    >
    > So, is the guy just a cantankerous, out of touch reactionary or still a visionary?
    >
    > -dt

    According to one of my riding buds who's worked with him, he's bit of all three. But most
    geniuses are.
    --
    Slacker - perfectly normal non-genius
     
  4. Critic

    Critic Guest

    "Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In the June issue of Mountain Bike, Horst Leitner (inventor of the Horst Link used on such f.s.
    > bikes as Titus Racer X, Specialized FSR, and his
    own,
    > now defunct, AMPs) is quoted as follows:
    >
    > WORST SUSPENSION INNOVATION? - "Bikes like the Santa Cruz Blur. They're
    too
    > heavy because they don't use their suspension element as a structural
    member
    > to keep weight down and to maximize rigidity. The VPP has too many pivots, which makes it too
    > flexy. Our bikes from 10 years ago are probably more rigid."
    >
    > INNOVATION YOU ADMIRE MOST? " The mountain bike industry is going
    backwards,
    > so I can't admire anything. Manufacturers are moving more and more toward freeride bikes. The
    > result is a shrinking market. There's no way to make money there. They should be making bikes that
    > are light, suspended and comfortable. Instead, they're making bikes with tons of travel, and
    they're
    > getting stuck with them. As for DH bikes, they're good for a few sales,
    then
    > it's over."
    >
    > STILL TO COME? "I don't know. Right now no one's headed in the right direction. If someone comes
    > up with something better than an AMP-type suspension design, maybe. But so far, no one has."
    >
    > From this and other quotes, it's clear the guy is full of himself, though maybe with some
    > justification. My gut is that he has a point, as I'm
    biased
    > in favor of x-c and light bikes.
    >
    > So, is the guy just a cantankerous, out of touch reactionary or still a visionary?
    >
    > -dt
    >
    I find it interesting that he should be criticizing the Blur as being too heavy, given the too
    delicate nature of his Amps.
     
  5. Doug Taylor wrote:
    > In the June issue of Mountain Bike, Horst Leitner (inventor of the Horst Link used on such f.s.
    > bikes as Titus Racer X, Specialized FSR, and his own, now defunct, AMPs) is quoted as follows:
    >
    > WORST SUSPENSION INNOVATION? - "Bikes like the Santa Cruz Blur. They're too heavy because they
    > don't use their suspension element as a structural member to keep weight down and to maximize
    > rigidity. The VPP has too many pivots, which makes it too flexy. Our bikes from 10 years ago are
    > probably more rigid."

    OK, I'll bit eon this one. I have owned an AMP B2, B4 and a B5. I currently ride a Blur. I think the
    b2 weighed around 25, the b4 was a bit heavier and the B5 weighed 24.5. They were decent enough
    bikes, but suffered from various shortcomings. I won't even speak of the companies utter inability
    to make a functioning rear shock. Oh wait, I just did. The Amps were flexy. They were not at all a
    good choice for anyone who weighed over 170 pounds. The bushings at every pivot point wore out
    quickly. My Blur weighs just under 26 pounds, this, mind you, with "heavy" items like tubeless tires
    and hydraulic disc brakes. Though it is quite new, it already feels like the least flexy dual
    suspension frame I have yet inhabited. Is my Blur the be all and end all? I very much doubt it. But
    is sure is a nice ride, and I think it represents a notch up in the evolution of suspension. (Note:
    as with the first round of VPP bikes, sometimes evolutionary steps are quickly commited to the
    fossil record. See also: Manitou's first full suspension bike, the Pulstar hub, the Stegosaurus, and
    suspension stems.)

    >
    > INNOVATION YOU ADMIRE MOST? " The mountain bike industry is going backwards, so I can't admire
    > anything. Manufacturers are moving more and more toward freeride bikes. The result is a shrinking
    > market. There's no way to make money there. They should be making bikes that are light, suspended
    > and comfortable. Instead, they're making bikes with tons of travel, and they're getting stuck with
    > them. As for DH bikes, they're good for a few sales, then it's over."

    Methinks he's thinking of the racer's market as the pinnacle, Around here, more people are bagging
    on racing and going for longer, more technical rides. NO BRA has upped it's fees, ad they are losing
    venues and sponsorship left and right. Plus the courses all seem like groomers relative to some of
    the trails that people actually spend time on riding. Here in central Texas, there is a series of
    very successful grass roots events like time trails, 12 hour endurance rides and even a night time
    trial or two. 4x4 bikes are pretty common at these events, along with free beer.

    Ten years ago a bike with 63mm of travel up front and 80mm in the back was viewed by and large as
    "burly" and overkill for most trails. I think back then there just wasn't a pigeonhole word like
    "freeride" to describe the phenomenon. If you can't figure out how to make money by selling 4,000
    buck bikes to kids who jump off of cliffs and houses on them, it might be best to stay out of the
    front office and stick to the lab.
    >
    > STILL TO COME? "I don't know. Right now no one's headed in the right direction. If someone comes
    > up with something better than an AMP-type suspension design, maybe. But so far, no one has."

    Well of course he would say that no one is headed in the right direction if he thinks that the AMP
    type suspension is the only right direction.

    I think there are better supsension options available to a wider cross sewction of consumers than
    there were ten years ago.

    >
    > From this and other quotes, it's clear the guy is full of himself, though maybe with some
    > justification. My gut is that he has a point, as I'm biased in favor of x-c and light bikes.
    >
    > So, is the guy just a cantankerous, out of touch reactionary or still a visionary?
    >
    > -dt
    >
    >

    --
    My hands are full of thorns but I can't quit groping for the rose.
     
  6. Jd

    Jd Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > "Technician" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > | I have narrowed it down to the Mule, BlowFish, or Hawg (MSRP of $80, $90, and $100,
    > | respectfully).
    > |
    > | current storage plane are simply a small tool kit to do away with the saddle bag ('cause it says
    > | Next on it). future plans are to buy a video camera (digital or analog, not sure. must have an
    > | a/v input) so it will need room for that, plus some padding. and i would like some space for a
    > | few small'ish extras.
    > |
    > | Now, pictures, IMO, are worthless unless you can see them on somebody... oh wait, scroll down on
    > | the camelbak.com site...
    > |
    > | Ok, i can see the mule looks rather small, the blowfish may be about right, and the hawg is big,
    > | but has compression straps to fix the unused space problem.
    > |
    > | My federal check was $219 (i had to double check the return forms as i thought it was supposed
    > | to be $119), so cost is not really a problem.
    > |
    > | now, assuming the top cost selection above, and that my LBS sells it for that cost, plus the 5%
    > | tax, that leaves me with $114. so my next question, is there a mapping GPS unit (with download
    > | to PC mapping software) availible for that price (taking shipping/tax into account)?
    > |
    >
    > Before plonking down some major coin on the name-brand stuff, check out Target and Wal-mart for
    > their off-brand hydration packs. They'll cost far less and work just as well (though with many of
    > them you'd do well to drop by the LBS and replace the bladder with the Camel product.
    >
    > For basic rides, I use a 2001 model "Rocket." I like the baffled bladder (lies flatter when the
    > water gets low) and it has just the right amount of storage for me (not a lot, but will hold
    > everything I need.) If I want to carry more, I converted a $10 day-pack I found at Old Navy,
    > sewing in a sleeve from one of those off-brand packs. Total cost, about $40 plus some sewing time,
    > compared to over $100 for a HAWG.
    >

    But cost isn't really a problem.

    I kind of like the sound of the baffled reservoir, though that can be purchased separately.

    ~Travis
    --
    travis57 at megalink dot net

    http://www.megalink.net/~farmers/mtty.mp3
     
  7. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    [email protected] (JD) wrote:

    >His statement that the bike industry (it's an industry?) is going backwards is rather interesting.
    >Some people in this ng enjoy calling me an elitist when I bag on the "floppers", however his line
    >of thought on that whole set and direction that they are taking mountain biking as a whole says
    >that it is they who are the elitists. I say let the freeriders and DHers (especially the wannabes)
    >kill mountain biking off as an industry. It'll be nice to not see a bunch of trendy bozos on the
    >trails and see only mountain bikers again. Running it back to 1985 or so would be really nice
    >because everyone on the trail was friendly back then, never to too busy "training" for their
    >desperate herd 24 hour race to return a greeting.
    >
    >JD high five to Mr Leitner

    I sense a wee contradiction as well as a misapprehension.

    Leitner - and I agree with him on this - decries heavy suspension and the whole "freeride" marketing
    thing. I agree because I'm an x-c type who dabbles in racing (NORBA Sport Class is so not hard
    core). My thing is more cleaning the tough climb than landing the mega drop. I don't need lots of
    travel (or any when the mood hits to ride the SS) to ride technical trails or to descend fast. Sure,
    the dualie is faster downhill and easier over the rocks and roots, but all I need is a few inches of
    travel - anymore and I'm way over suspended for what I
    do.

    Maybe it's just an old guy thing, but the 24 Hour race crowd is in the same mode. These folks are
    not as a rule into hucking big air and riding engineless motorcycles downhill. Nor are they your
    stuck up shaved leg roadie "too busy training" types, either. In fact, they more resemble the old
    school "how ya doin; need a tube; wanna bite of my power bar?" people than anybody else out there
    these day, IME.

    So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.

    --dt
     
  8. Doug Taylor wrote:

    >
    >Maybe it's just an old guy thing, but the 24 Hour race crowd is in the same mode. These folks are
    >not as a rule into hucking big air and riding engineless motorcycles downhill. Nor are they your
    >stuck up shaved leg roadie "too busy training" types, either. In fact, they more resemble the old
    >school "how ya doin; need a tube; wanna bite of my power bar?" people than anybody else out there
    >these day, IME.
    >
    >So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
    >
    >--dt
    >
    I agree. From my perch, I see lots of 24 hour racers who are out there for the fun of the event. NO
    BRA refugees who got fed up with the competitveness and mentaility of the
    "every-other-sunday-sprint-series".

    I see too many people working too hard to classify riders these days. Folks worry about "racers" and
    "Barneys" and "Freeriders" and all manner of rider types. I still try to view folks as mountain
    bikers, and let their true qualities reveal themselves. FWIW, I STILL say that mountain biking is
    where and what you make of it. If someone buys a top end bike and only does rails-to-trails east of
    the mississippi, I say let 'em ride. The spindly kid on a Wal-goose out on the trails? Give him a
    thumbs up! I was that kid 20 years ago. The racer/trainer? Hell, as annoying s they can be, at least
    they're not sitting in their SUV in traffic waiting to get to the outlet mall.

    Oh my, I seem to be up on a soapbox....

    I'll get down now.

    A
     
  9. Miles Todd

    Miles Todd Guest

    I'll bite.

    I owned AMP #7. That's right, the seventh AMP ever made. It weighed in at a touch under 22 pounds,
    and this was back in the early '90s when there really wasn't that much in the way of lightweight
    parts. Hell, that was before Flite saddles, even. The frame weighed just under 4 1/2 pounds, with
    shock. I don't know of any current non-amp design that weighs less. Hell, the Scalpel weighs more,
    as does the STP.

    I rode and raced that bike for years. I put many, many thousands of miles on it (no pun intended). I
    rode long, hard rides on it. I rode short, fast rides on it. I rode technical trails, etc.

    The bike took a lot of maintenance. During the time I had the bike, I averaged almost 200 miles on
    it a week (all off-road). Because of the extremely light nature of the pivots, I replaced the pivot
    rods on a monthly basis, and the bushings (small nylon washers) at least every other week. The rear
    shock's seals were only good for a couple of months before they wore out. All of this was very easy
    to do, and overhauling all of the pivots and replacing the o-rings in the shock was an easy hour's
    worth of work. I have no idea how much the parts would have costed, but I can't believe it would
    have been very much at all.

    Anyhow, I didn't mind the maintenance, but really, for the average consumer it is a bit much to ask.
    In that sense, Horst made the bike too light. In his defense, though, it did work great. The bike
    was very fast, a great climber, and handled the turn better than most. Was it flexy? Sure. Does it
    matter? No. Was it a great trail bike (not "trailbike")? Not all that great, but that had to do with
    the fork, and its "endo" style of travel... my advice is stay away from parallelogram forks.

    Does an AMP-style bike suffer from pedal-induced bobbing? No. Rider- induced bobbing, perhaps. Learn
    to pedal in a circle, and that will go away. Does an AMP-style bike need a lockout? No. A lockout is
    a crutch to hide poor suspension design or poor pedaling style (or, perhaps, simply a needless
    feature to sell product). In these respects, there are precious few other designs out there that
    equal Horst's 13 year old AMP. I'd have to say that I'm not particularly impressed by very many
    current suspension bikes at all.

    What did I do with my AMP? I provided my local bike-thief dope-fiend with fix money for a couple of
    days, by leaving the garage door open just a little too long after a ride one time.

    What bike did I replace it with? A hardtail.

    Miles
     
  10. Dick

    Dick Guest

    > Some people in this ng enjoy calling me an elitist when I bag on the "floppers", however his line
    > of thought on that whole set and direction that they are taking mountain biking as a whole says
    > that it is they who are the elitists. I say let the freeriders and DHers (especially the wannabes)
    > kill mountain biking off as an industry. It'll be nice to not see a bunch of trendy bozos on the
    > trails and see only mountain bikers again. Running it back to 1985 or so would be really nice
    > because everyone on the trail was friendly back then, never to too busy "training" for their
    > desperate herd 24 hour race to return a greeting.
    >
    > JD high five to Mr Leitner

    Freeriding and downhill won't kill mtbing, it is just more visible and attracts a younger crowd.
    It's the same type of group that skates and bmxes and those sports aren't going anywhere.

    The trendy bozos are here to stay because the sport is much more mainstream now, you don't see
    roadies getting any less colorful. Embrace the popularity of the sport, if it wasn't popular you'd
    have fewer parts and bikes to choose from, fewer shops, fewer lame magazines to criticism, fewer
    trails, fewer biking friends, fewer peacocks to snicker at...
     
  11. Jan Sacharuk

    Jan Sacharuk Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, JD wrote:

    > All three would be a good thing because one must have balance. He's just opinionated and it's all
    > based on his observations from his experience. He's been around a long time and there's a reason
    > for that. His designs are still being used successfully after all of these years. Who else's
    > design(s) is(are) still being used successfully from the time the AMP was first designed? Not
    > many, I bet.

    Well, there's the whole single pivot thing. That's not so much a design as an obvious cheap way to
    put a suspension on a bike, though.

    > I like my Horst Link bike a lot. The balance of climbing/descending performance is excellent
    > compared to other bikes I have owned or demoed.

    Even on my VPS-3, the kind of bike that he's complaining about, the suspension action is quite good.
    It's only ('only') got 4 inches of travel, but it feels pretty bottomless to me. It's not really a
    climber, but I can certainly make a go of sprinting and climbing, and I think it's at least partly
    due to the design of the suspension.

    > thought on that whole set and direction that they are taking mountain biking as a whole says that
    > it is they who are the elitists. I say let the freeriders and DHers (especially the wannabes) kill
    > mountain biking off as an industry. It'll be nice to not see a bunch of trendy bozos on the trails
    > and see only mountain bikers again. Running it back to 1985 or so would be really nice because
    > everyone on the trail was friendly back then, never to too busy "training" for their desperate
    > herd 24 hour race to return a greeting.

    I took his words to mean something somewhat different. Horst was always a big proponent of
    super-light full suspension bikes, and I always got the impression that he wanted everyone to be a
    full-on racer. Sure, his bikes were reasonable trail bikes, to an extent, but the nature of the
    parallelogram fork and the relative fragility of his AMP bikes made them best suited for a race
    course, and less suited for good technical fast singletrack. My bike may be a bit heavy (at 37lbs),
    but I'm confident when I ride it through rock gardens and abusive singletrack. So, given that slant
    on it, Horst should really just stay quiet and design new and innovative things for bikes. I tried
    to be a racer for a few short years before I realized that it wasn't actually much fun to go kill
    myself for hours at a time and not enjoy the scenery, and worry so much about the weight of my bike
    and myself and how I wanted to progress. I'm much happier with my heavy 'freeride' bike that I can
    take anywhere and ride anything with. He should be proud of the fact that his design was worthy of
    being on a big bike like mine and that so many people ride it for so many different reasons, not
    just racing.

    JS

    --
    ========================= [email protected] ========================
    Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code
    header to see my Geek Code
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Another day, some other way, but not another reason to continue. And now you're one of us. The
    wretched. The wretched.
    - "The Wretched", NIN
     
  12. Jd

    Jd Guest

    miles todd <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... <snip>
    > Does an AMP-style bike suffer from pedal-induced bobbing? No. Rider- induced bobbing, perhaps.
    > Learn to pedal in a circle, and that will go away. Does an AMP-style bike need a lockout? No. A
    > lockout is a crutch to hide poor suspension design or poor pedaling style (or, perhaps, simply a
    > needless feature to sell product).

    You are The Man, Miles. People who buy into hype need to ignore your words of wisdom because they'll
    probably never get it.

    JD
     
  13. Jd

    Jd Guest

    Dick <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Some people in this ng enjoy calling me an elitist when I bag on the "floppers", however his
    > > line of thought on that whole set and direction that they are taking mountain biking as a whole
    > > says that it is they who are the elitists. I say let the freeriders and DHers (especially the
    > > wannabes) kill mountain biking off as an industry. It'll be nice to not see a bunch of trendy
    > > bozos on the trails and see only mountain bikers again. Running it back to 1985 or so would be
    > > really nice because everyone on the trail was friendly back then, never to too busy "training"
    > > for their desperate herd 24 hour race to return a greeting.
    > >
    > > JD high five to Mr Leitner
    >
    > Freeriding and downhill won't kill mtbing, it is just more visible and attracts a younger crowd.

    Thanks for your input Dick, however you are quite incorrect. The act of freeriding in a poaching
    sense has already shut down trails, including a classic right here in my backyard. In fact, they
    (local freeriders) are now threatening access on a trail system even closer to my home with their
    "let's build a new illegal route" shenanigans, eve to the point of reopening what local trail crews
    have shut down. Tell m those shitbirds aren't ruining nit for the rest of us and I'll flat out call
    you a liar and/or highly ignorant.

    JD
     
  14. Dick

    Dick Guest

    JD wrote:
    > Dick <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>>Some people in this ng enjoy calling me an elitist when I bag on the "floppers", however his line
    >>>of thought on that whole set and direction that they are taking mountain biking as a whole says
    >>>that it is they who are the elitists. I say let the freeriders and DHers (especially the
    >>>wannabes) kill mountain biking off as an industry. It'll be nice to not see a bunch of trendy
    >>>bozos on the trails and see only mountain bikers again. Running it back to 1985 or so would be
    >>>really nice because everyone on the trail was friendly back then, never to too busy "training"
    >>>for their desperate herd 24 hour race to return a greeting.
    >>>
    >>>JD high five to Mr Leitner
    >>
    >>Freeriding and downhill won't kill mtbing, it is just more visible and attracts a younger crowd.
    >
    >
    > Thanks for your input Dick, however you are quite incorrect. The act of freeriding in a poaching
    > sense has already shut down trails, including a classic right here in my backyard. In fact, they
    > (local freeriders) are now threatening access on a trail system even closer to my home with their
    > "let's build a new illegal route" shenanigans, eve to the point of reopening what local trail
    > crews have shut down. Tell m those shitbirds aren't ruining nit for the rest of us and I'll flat
    > out call you a liar and/or highly ignorant.
    >
    > JD

    Poaching is a whole other ball game. Unfortunatly the videos do glorify it but "freeriding" is not
    defined by creating illegal trails.

    Locally I have seen quite the opposite situation. There are a few heavily used trails that shun any
    trail deviations but other systems encourage it (to a point). People build trails and if it gets out
    of hand the poor routes are closed off. In this case the freeriding crowd is blazing new ground for
    the whole community. It all depends on the additude of your area.

    As the sport has grown more popular I have seen far far far more trails open up than close down. It
    is unfortunate when they do close but in most cases I can begrudginly admit that biking was not good
    for the area.
     
  15. Dick

    Dick Guest

    JD spewed:

    >
    >
    > Your experience is just that, yours alone. Come out here to enjoy the spectacle with me sometime
    > and I'll show you the hordes of wannabe dilweed racers that choose to "train" on the trails here
    > on any given weekend in the Spring or Fall. They really get pissed off when some old SOB screams
    > right by them on an old rigid bike, wearing cutoff Levis and a Three Stooges Tshirt. It's
    > hilarious.
    >
    >
    >>So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
    >
    >
    > I don't see it that way because either group jacks up public lands in the name of mountain biking.
    > Both are criminal in my eyes and the reason for that is because I would like to see mountain
    > biking survive, not get shut down by land managers responding to an envirowacko-fueled public
    > voice. That's also why barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people on mountain bikes are the
    > enemy of anyone who is truly a mountain biker. If you truly love the sport/lifestyle, you will
    > protect it from those who may harm it.
    >
    > JD

    Sounds like Mike V may have gotten to you. MY experience, in my little world, is that it ain't that
    bad, and that only a small percentage of trails are threatened.

    Most of the questions that usually arise are over shared use than environmental concerns. imba and
    all it's children are doing a great job (again, in my minuscule slice of the earth) making sure
    trails are healthy. Walker and horsies don't tend to get along well with bikers and they make the
    noise. A corner that got cut short or a puddle that is getting reamed is not going to write a letter
    to a land manager.
     
  16. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    [email protected] (JD) wrote:

    >> So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
    >
    >I don't see it that way because either group jacks up public lands in the name of mountain biking.
    >Both are criminal in my eyes and the reason for that is because I would like to see mountain biking
    >survive, not get shut down by land managers responding to an envirowacko-fueled public voice.
    >That's also why barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people on mountain bikes are the enemy
    >of anyone who is truly a mountain biker. If you truly love the sport/lifestyle, you will protect it
    >from those who may harm it.

    In your words, no shit.

    Your mistake is to lump racers with "barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people." X-C races
    are licensed and sanctioned events on whatever land they are staged; no poaching involved. Blame the
    organizers, not the riders. Neither you nor I know "all racers," but it is a sure bet the that
    majority are more inclined to respect the land on which they ride than the people you denigrate.

    Or maybe not.

    Get real JD. This is a big, big planet, chock full of idiots and assholes. Ain't nothing you can do
    except set and live the right example, and otherwise STFU because preaching, bitching and moaning
    only makes things worse. And nothing you can do about the fact the ya gotta share the place, like it
    or not. I don't like YOU breathing "MY" air and shitting on "MY" earth anymore than the converse.

    As for me, I'm a shaved leg roadie as well as off-roadie, and this Saturday will be heading out to a
    local County Park, extensively damaged by a freak ice storm this spring, with a crew of volunteers
    to do what we can to restore the trail system. You're welcome to join us.

    http://bikeloft.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=36 --dt
     
  17. Jd

    Jd Guest

    Doug Taylor <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (JD) wrote:
    >
    > >> So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
    > >
    > >I don't see it that way because either group jacks up public lands in the name of mountain
    > >biking. Both are criminal in my eyes and the reason for that is because I would like to see
    > >mountain biking survive, not get shut down by land managers responding to an envirowacko-fueled
    > >public voice. That's also why barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people on mountain bikes
    > >are the enemy of anyone who is truly a mountain biker. If you truly love the sport/lifestyle, you
    > >will protect it from those who may harm it.
    >
    > In your words, no shit.
    >
    > Your mistake is to lump racers with "barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people." X-C races
    > are licensed and sanctioned events on whatever land they are staged; no poaching involved. Blame
    > the organizers, not the riders. Neither you nor I know "all racers," but it is a sure bet the that
    > majority are more inclined to respect the land on which they ride than the people you denigrate.
    >
    > Or maybe not.

    Why don't you come out to Behind The Rocks with me after the 24 Hours of Moab? I'll show you cut
    corners, off-trail riding through crypto and a lot of garbage left all over the trail from goo
    wrappers to "mojos". Ask Lard Knight why he doesn't (or in Moab's case CAN'T) restore the trails he
    promotes jacking up on public lands every time he holds an "event". Most trails are not made to
    handle a thundering desperate herd and when the herd comes, it leaves a giant mess, all at the
    expense of the land. I blame the organizers AND those who participate because without the herd
    mentality participants, the promoters have nothing.

    > Get real JD. This is a big, big planet, chock full of idiots and assholes. Ain't nothing you can
    > do except set and live the right example, and otherwise STFU because preaching, bitching and
    > moaning only makes things worse. And nothing you can do about the fact the ya gotta share the
    > place, like it or not. I don't like YOU breathing "MY" air and shitting on "MY" earth anymore than
    > the converse.

    I don't care what you think about my opinion. This is an open forum and I am allowed to write my
    opinion down. I think racing huge races on public land is an atrocity to the trails and those
    who use them.

    > As for me, I'm a shaved leg roadie as well as off-roadie, and this Saturday will be heading out to
    > a local County Park, extensively damaged by a freak ice storm this spring, with a crew of
    > volunteers to do what we can to restore the trail system. You're welcome to join us.

    No thanks, I just got back from a maintenance ride, which included once again shutting down a few
    lameo barney freerider wannabe piece of shit lines. The war of attrition will be won by those who
    are truly dedicated and are backed in their actions by the land manager. Angry Man had a
    confrontation with some of them last Saturday and let them know if they persist in messing up the
    area and threatening access for legitimate users (which they are), names will be forwarded to the
    proper authorities and they will soon be appearing in Federal Court, explaining to a Magistrate why
    they are so stupid. I may just have to sit in court with a huge grin on my mug when that day comes.

    Now go train for your next race, Doug.

    JD
     
  18. Jd

    Jd Guest

    Dick <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > JD spewed:
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > Your experience is just that, yours alone. Come out here to enjoy the spectacle with me sometime
    > > and I'll show you the hordes of wannabe dilweed racers that choose to "train" on the trails here
    > > on any given weekend in the Spring or Fall. They really get pissed off when some old SOB screams
    > > right by them on an old rigid bike, wearing cutoff Levis and a Three Stooges Tshirt. It's
    > > hilarious.
    > >
    > >
    > >>So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
    > >
    > >
    > > I don't see it that way because either group jacks up public lands in the name of mountain
    > > biking. Both are criminal in my eyes and the reason for that is because I would like to see
    > > mountain biking survive, not get shut down by land managers responding to an envirowacko-fueled
    > > public voice. That's also why barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people on mountain
    > > bikes are the enemy of anyone who is truly a mountain biker. If you truly love the
    > > sport/lifestyle, you will protect it from those who may harm it.
    > >
    > > JD
    >
    > Sounds like Mike V may have gotten to you. MY experience, in my little world, is that it ain't
    > that bad, and that only a small percentage of trails are threatened.

    Where do you live? Fantasyland? Hell, even a small percentage of trails being threatened is
    way too many.

    > Most of the questions that usually arise are over shared use than environmental concerns. imba and
    > all it's children are doing a great job (again, in my minuscule slice of the earth) making sure
    > trails are healthy.

    Yup, Fantasyland. If we had waited as IMBA advised to screech about the Bookcliffs (thanks again to
    Pete for the assist), there would be a Super Bowl Of Motocross there every weekend by now and what
    so many have enjoyed for so long would be ruined forever. Thinking that the Sun shines out of the
    ass of IMBA is not a wise choice.

    > Walker and horsies don't tend to get along well with bikers and they make the noise. A corner that
    > got cut short or a puddle that is getting reamed is not going to write a letter to a land manager.

    So, you think that's the same everywhere? You really need a clue. For instance...the BLM Manager
    here is a rabid anti-mountain bike person and guess what? SHE HIKES THESE TRAILS ALL OF THE TIME
    AND NEEDS NO LETTERS TO TELL HER TAHT SOME PINHEADS ARE RIDING THEIR BIKES WHEREVER THEY DAMN
    WELL PLEASE.

    Travel a little more before you spew, Dick.

    JD pun intended
     
  19. Dick

    Dick Guest

    >>MY experience, in my little world, is that it ain't that bad, and that only a small percentage of
    >>trails are threatened.
    >
    >
    > Where do you live? Fantasyland? Hell, even a small percentage of trails being threatened is way
    > too many.
    >
    >
    >>Most of the questions that usually arise are over shared use than environmental concerns. imba and
    >>all it's children are doing a great job (again, in my minuscule slice of the earth) making sure
    >>trails are healthy.
    >
    >
    > Yup, Fantasyland. If we had waited as IMBA advised to screech about the Bookcliffs (thanks again
    > to Pete for the assist), there would be a Super Bowl Of Motocross there every weekend by now and
    > what so many have enjoyed for so long would be ruined forever. Thinking that the Sun shines out of
    > the ass of IMBA is not a wise choice.
    >
    >
    >>Walker and horsies don't tend to get along well with bikers and they make the noise. A corner that
    >>got cut short or a puddle that is getting reamed is not going to write a letter to a land manager.
    >
    >
    > So, you think that's the same everywhere? You really need a clue. For instance...the BLM Manager
    > here is a rabid anti-mountain bike person and guess what? SHE HIKES THESE TRAILS ALL OF THE TIME
    > AND NEEDS NO LETTERS TO TELL HER TAHT SOME PINHEADS ARE RIDING THEIR BIKES WHEREVER THEY DAMN
    > WELL PLEASE.
    >
    > Travel a little more before you spew, Dick.
    >
    > JD pun intended

    So help me to understand this. Am I to understand that what you see in your area is to be assumed
    relevant to the entire world?

    OK, got that

    What I see in my area clearly isn't happening and it's all in my imagination.

    Roger that too I guess

    Regardless of how hard I try to say that it may be different here than elsewhere it is to be assumed
    that I really mean what I am imagining is definatly the case everywhere else.

    Um, I'm a little foggy on that one but I think I understand.

    Well, that's going to take a while to digest. At any rate, it sounds like there are some serious
    access issues in your area and I hope they improve for you. It would suck wondering if the best
    trails are going to be around for the next ride.
     
  20. Jan Sacharuk

    Jan Sacharuk Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Dick wrote:

    > So help me to understand this. Am I to understand that what you see in your area is to be assumed
    > relevant to the entire world?

    He's right, though. Land access rights are important to everyone that rides. JD has specific issues
    that he's gonna have to deal with in his particular area, but to think that one day people won't be
    coming for your trails is naive. The store I ride with and all the people that ride in the city
    have been working really hard to try and do maintenance, make sure that everyone thinks that we're
    safe and polite, and generally make everyone think that we care as much about the trails as they
    do. Everyone has to fight the good fight. JD losing trail access where he lives should be a problem
    for everyone.

    > Regardless of how hard I try to say that it may be different here than elsewhere it is to be
    > assumed that I really mean what I am imagining is definatly the case everywhere else.

    'Definitely'. (Sorry. Misspellings of that word are my personal pet peeve. :)

    Anyway, as mountain bikers, we need to be more of one mind about trail access than we currently are.
    If people think that riders in BC are trail trashing skid-monkeys, they'll think that riders
    everywhere are like people in BC, even though they aren't. If everyone, everywhere takes care of
    their trails and works to make sure that people aren't breaking the law or trashing the parks,
    everyone everywhere will have a place to ride, see?

    JS

    --
    ========================= [email protected] ========================
    Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code
    header to see my Geek Code
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Another day, some other way, but not another reason to continue. And now you're one of us. The
    wretched. The wretched.
    - "The Wretched", NIN
     
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