How to mount Old Weinmann centerpull brake pads "Toe-in"

[ddog]

I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
leading edge touching first. This makes sense to gradually introduce
braking, rather than possible brake pulses from wheel/pad interfaces
which could lead to pads overheating, hardening, and sqealing.

I've just got single screws on pads and was wondering if it is possible
to mount these 'Toe-in' if there's no visable way to adjust them?

All I can think of would be an angled washer and/or bolt, but never
seen one.
Or maybe just bending bolt on pad, grasping nut on end of bolt. Or
possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
break, or move while riding.

They are the smallest pad size like Kool-Stop's Continental size pad.


Thank You,
Phil Bailey
Sarasota, FL

 

[[email protected]]

On 3 Jan 2007 10:07:27 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
>leading edge touching first. This makes sense to gradually introduce
>braking, rather than possible brake pulses from wheel/pad interfaces
>which could lead to pads overheating, hardening, and sqealing.
>
>I've just got single screws on pads and was wondering if it is possible
>to mount these 'Toe-in' if there's no visable way to adjust them?
>
>All I can think of would be an angled washer and/or bolt, but never
>seen one.
>Or maybe just bending bolt on pad, grasping nut on end of bolt. Or
>possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
>a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
>break, or move while riding.
>
>They are the smallest pad size like Kool-Stop's Continental size pad.
>
>

Don't bother.

Even if you manage to get the pads the way you have been led to
believe is "correct", after (at most) a week's riding they will be
worn flat.

If you want to "gradually introduce braking", just don't squeeze so
hard.

 

[ddog]

OK, I think this method was proposed to break new shoes in, and the
rust(red) brakes are notorius to sqeaking.

I did get confused as to the breaking in and operating differences. But
it actually does sound like a good operational mechanism to have in
brakes. Guess, I'll have to break down and buy new wheels one of the
days any way, ha-ha.


Thanks,
Phil Bailey

 

[[email protected]]

ddog wrote:
> I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> leading edge touching first.

On Weinmann center pulls, as far as I know the toe-in thing was just to
keep them from squeaking, not to gradually introduce braking. The old
Schwinn manuals said to phsyically bend the brake arm slightly with a
wrench if the brakes started to squeak. Their stock brake pad position
was nearly parallel to the rim surface and that is probably the best
way to use them. I've also heard of placing a shim on one side of the
brake shoe to hold it at an angle. My feeling is that if the brakes
aren't squeaking, don't bother.

 

[dalebenjamin]

ddog wrote:
> I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> leading edge touching first. This makes sense to gradually introduce
> braking, rather than possible brake pulses from wheel/pad interfaces
> which could lead to pads overheating, hardening, and sqealing.

I prefered the leading edge to touch first when using single pivot
brakes because I ride in traffic and have many occasions to stop and
wait. It takes less effort to hold the cycle still with a little
weight on a pedal, comfortable for me. Double pivot brakes are nice.

> Or
> possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
> a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
> break, or move while riding.

It only takes a bend of a few degrees from paralell to produce the
effect. I never had one snap. The alloy is far from brittle.

 

[* * Chas]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ddog wrote:
> > I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> > leading edge touching first.
>
> On Weinmann center pulls, as far as I know the toe-in thing was just to
> keep them from squeaking, not to gradually introduce braking. The old
> Schwinn manuals said to phsyically bend the brake arm slightly with a
> wrench if the brakes started to squeak. Their stock brake pad position
> was nearly parallel to the rim surface and that is probably the best
> way to use them. I've also heard of placing a shim on one side of the
> brake shoe to hold it at an angle. My feeling is that if the brakes
> aren't squeaking, don't bother.
>

I agree with you - "if the brakes aren't squeaking". I recently bought a
Park brake arm adjusting tool to ad to my collection of junk. Prior to
that I've always used a large adjustable (crescent) wrench to toe the arms
in about .5mm.

I remove the wheel and brake blocks and bend the arms with the wrench
tightly closed on the brake block area. If there's a chance of marring the
arm I put tape on it.

I recently got a set of old Campy NR calipers. The rear was like new but
the front one had some corrosion. I tore them down and switched spindles
so that I could put the rear caliper on the front. When I installed them I
found that the toe in was reversed and it appeared that they came from the
factory that way. I adjusted the toe, no problem.

Mafac brakes HAD to have the toe in adjusted PERIOD.

Chas.

 

[landotter]

dalebenjamin wrote:
> ddog wrote:

> > Or
> > possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
> > a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
> > break, or move while riding.
>
> It only takes a bend of a few degrees from paralell to produce the
> effect. I never had one snap. The alloy is far from brittle.

That's the way we did it in the beforetime. Use a crescent wrench. Or
get some pads that allow for toeing in. Most cartridge pads, even the
cheap tektros on my fixie let you toe in w/o bending.

 

[ddog]

I wasn't aware that AL bent at all, especially 36 year old AL - ???

Kind of like the shim idea mentioned, so can probably make a shim out
of bending a Coke can or something like that.

If it can break, it will with me. I want to keep the centerpulls
though, since I'll just wait until they come back in style Really
though, I want to keep 27" wheels and same brake calipers since the
frame was designed around them (more so the 27" wheels than the
calipers). Braking is a big liability and requires many fragile
equilibrium levels that should be adhered to maintain proper balance in
every dimension forces are applied.

Tektro 200 levers, new cable/housing, and rust pads (with shims) should
work fine. If I ever do need new wheels when install wider IRD 5 sp
freewheel, I will put 27" rims back on: already have wheel components
selected at around $225 per wheel (same as a Sheldon/Harris
suggested/constructed db 1-1/4" wheel).

Braking for me is not anything I want to "Pioneer" on my bike, lol.
Just want to menu select the best value items that will fit my bike
'for sure'.

 

[A Muzi]

ddog wrote:
> I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> leading edge touching first. This makes sense to gradually introduce
> braking, rather than possible brake pulses from wheel/pad interfaces
> which could lead to pads overheating, hardening, and sqealing.
>
> I've just got single screws on pads and was wondering if it is possible
> to mount these 'Toe-in' if there's no visable way to adjust them?
>
> All I can think of would be an angled washer and/or bolt, but never
> seen one.
> Or maybe just bending bolt on pad, grasping nut on end of bolt. Or
> possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
> a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
> break, or move while riding.
>
> They are the smallest pad size like Kool-Stop's Continental size pad.

Point your fingers in the direction of a spinning wheel and touch the
tire lightly. Your hand is pulled down to the tire.

Now try that backwards. As your finger touches the tire it will
resonate. Brake calipers can resonate like that in an audible range.
While that doesn't affect brake performance, it's annoying.

If you have new pads and a new caliper yes, the arms may be bent until
the front of the pad touches with ~~1mm space at the back of the shoe.
That is a one-time adjustment for classic brakes which have no other
provision for shoe angle adjustment. It isn't twenty degrees and don't
do it repeatedly.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[ddog]

Thanks Andrew,

When and if I finally get my Scott Mathauser pads sent to me, I'll have
to consider between the shim and bend option. I can measure a shim
easier than I can bend 1mm a small bent part.

Thanks again for the 'bending' alternative explained as a steel stud on
pad and not AL lever on centerpull calipers. That's what I was thinking
of first, but got sidetracked on thinking about AL lever arm touching
toe-in at first, and then rotate to flush with more pressure.

What if, ... lol.

 

[* * Chas]

"ddog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Andrew,
>
> When and if I finally get my Scott Mathauser pads sent to me, I'll have
> to consider between the shim and bend option. I can measure a shim
> easier than I can bend 1mm a small bent part.
>
> Thanks again for the 'bending' alternative explained as a steel stud on
> pad and not AL lever on centerpull calipers. That's what I was thinking
> of first, but got sidetracked on thinking about AL lever arm touching
> toe-in at first, and then rotate to flush with more pressure.
>
> What if, ... lol.
>

Don't try to bend the studs on the brake block holders. Most of the time
the studs will break out of the thin aluminum they are attached to.

Bending the area of the calipers where the brake blocks attach is very
easy and simple to do. Most better quality brake calipers are made from a
ductile aluminum alloy not brittle cast aluminum. They can be bent with a
crescent wrench. It only takes a slight amount of pressure.

Chas.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"* * Chas" <[email protected]> wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > ddog wrote:
> > > I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> > > leading edge touching first.
> >
> > On Weinmann center pulls, as far as I know the toe-in thing was just to
> > keep them from squeaking, not to gradually introduce braking. The old
> > Schwinn manuals said to phsyically bend the brake arm slightly with a
> > wrench if the brakes started to squeak. Their stock brake pad position
> > was nearly parallel to the rim surface and that is probably the best
> > way to use them. I've also heard of placing a shim on one side of the
> > brake shoe to hold it at an angle. My feeling is that if the brakes
> > aren't squeaking, don't bother.
> >
>
> I agree with you - "if the brakes aren't squeaking". I recently bought a
> Park brake arm adjusting tool to ad to my collection of junk. Prior to
> that I've always used a large adjustable (crescent) wrench to toe the arms
> in about .5mm.
>
> I remove the wheel and brake blocks and bend the arms with the wrench
> tightly closed on the brake block area. If there's a chance of marring the
> arm I put tape on it.

I toed in a Universal Model 68. Fifteen years later the
arm cracked. Never again!

--
Michael Press

 

[Steve Watkin]

Why bother with toe in?
I have the same brakes on 13mm aluminum rims and they are both quiet and
efficient. Set up all parallel. At the moment I'm using Brompton brake
shoes but not for any other reason than that they were laying on my bench
when I built the bike up!!

SW

 

[* * Chas]

"Steve Watkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why bother with toe in?
> I have the same brakes on 13mm aluminum rims and they are both quiet and
> efficient. Set up all parallel. At the moment I'm using Brompton brake
> shoes but not for any other reason than that they were laying on my
bench
> when I built the bike up!!
>
> SW
>

Why? Because quite often I've found calipers with at least one arm
toed-out. A very slight amount of toe-in seems to prevent brake squeal
most of the time. If you have no squeal problems then don't worry about
it.

Chas.

 

[* * Chas]

"ddog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Andrew,
>
> When and if I finally get my Scott Mathauser pads sent to me, I'll have
> to consider between the shim and bend option. I can measure a shim
> easier than I can bend 1mm a small bent part.
>
> Thanks again for the 'bending' alternative explained as a steel stud on
> pad and not AL lever on centerpull calipers. That's what I was thinking
> of first, but got sidetracked on thinking about AL lever arm touching
> toe-in at first, and then rotate to flush with more pressure.
>
> What if, ... lol.
>

If you want to use a washer setup check out the Kool Stop brake blocks.
They have some that will fit your calipers.

Chas.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

ddog wrote:
> I've recently seen this is the correct way to mount pads, with the
> leading edge touching first. This makes sense to gradually introduce
> braking, rather than possible brake pulses from wheel/pad interfaces
> which could lead to pads overheating, hardening, and sqealing.
>
> I've just got single screws on pads and was wondering if it is possible
> to mount these 'Toe-in' if there's no visable way to adjust them?
>
> All I can think of would be an angled washer and/or bolt, but never
> seen one.
> Or maybe just bending bolt on pad, grasping nut on end of bolt. Or
> possibly bending brake arm. None of those sound real good, and could be
> a Safety concern on brakes if based on faulty principles: parts stress,
> break, or move while riding.
>
> They are the smallest pad size like Kool-Stop's Continental size pad.
>
>
> Thank You,
> Phil Bailey
> Sarasota, FL

Do it like it used to be done, bend the caliper arm a wee bit. Also
done with shimano calipers until they figured out how to make conical
washers with their brake block holder mounting hardware.