If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?

[Baxter]

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Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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"Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> George Conklin wrote:
>>> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Showers and lockers could be provided for less than the cost of "free"
>> parking, when the externalities are accounted for.
>
> A company needs "free" parking to be able to attract the people they want
> to hire. Very few people ride a bike to work. Showers and lockers are
> still installed these days for people that exercise at work.
Your "very few" is actually a rather large number in Portland, OR.

 

[George Conklin]

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George Conklin wrote:
> > "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> ...
> >> And on the other hand, there seems to be a perception among
> >> a lot of people that cycling is just too inconvenient -- that
> >> one must dress funny, "brave" the elements, and risk their
> >> neck among motorized traffic. They don't realize it doesn't
> >> have to be such a big deal.
> >>
> > In this climate, I would need a shower and chaning room in the buildings
at
> > work, since I would arrive totally 100% soaked through 8 months of the
year.
> > Also, a change of clothes and a place to wash them. So you would need
> > locker rooms too.
>
> Showers and lockers could be provided for less than the cost of "free"
> parking, when the externalities are accounted for.

So who gets free parking? And those externalities are infinite if you
are one of those bicycle militants.

 

[George Conklin]

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jack May wrote:
> > "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> George Conklin wrote:
> >>> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >> Showers and lockers could be provided for less than the cost of "free"
> >> parking, when the externalities are accounted for.
> >
> > A company needs "free" parking to be able to attract the people they
want to
> > hire. Very few people ride a bike to work. Showers and lockers are
still
> > installed these days for people that exercise at work.
> >
> Pretty poor excuse for a society then, eh?
>
> If people had to pay the true cost of motor vehicles, we would see a lot
> more commuter cyclists.
>
You have that totally backwards. Turning a 15 minute commute into a one
and half hour commute at standard wage rates means that you are wasting
several hours per day of productive work time, and you arrive at work
exhausted to boot.

 

[George Conklin]

"Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jack May wrote:
> >> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>> George Conklin wrote:
> >>>> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>> news:[email protected]...
> >>
>
> > Pretty poor excuse for a society then, eh?
> >
> > If people had to pay the true cost of motor vehicles, we would see a lot
> > more commuter cyclists.
>
> People are paying the true cost of motor vehicles. People pay for the
> "free" parking with reduced income. It is probably a small percentage of
> their income.
>
> How about the transit users paying off the true cost transit. That is a
> very large percentage of the income of most users. The true cost is
> typically shown to be the equivalent of a luxury car every year. Few car
> owners pay anywhere near that amount each year.
>
> Let me repeat for the people the "just don't get it". People don't use
> transit because its slow speed with lots of delays. Transit costs so much
> in dollar equivalents of time that people can not afford it.
>
> Transit is just a completely stupid, incompetent approach for 21st Century
> society.
>
>

Transit is speedy compared a bicycle. But bicycles may cost less.

 

[George Conklin]

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Oh please. In the US, people do NOT pay directly for the true cost, but
> it is hidden in other expenses.

The true cost of riding a bicycle is huge, and hidden by nonsense posted
here.

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:20:40 -0800, "Baxter"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>You don't have to bike EVERY trip in order to help the environment and our
>oil situation.
>

Right on!

I commute on a regular basis (140+ round trips last year!) and do as
many trips as I can by bike. I also work part time at a bicycle shop,
where I teach safe riding and bicycle care clinics. I also belong and
participate in several advocacy groups.

Along with all that, I live in an area that gets significant snowfall,
and then enjoys frozen slush and run-off. My morning commute is in
the dark 4-5 months of the year. I drive at the extreme cold ends of
the local climate. I have no problem riding in a warm rain, but pass
on cold and rain. I ride in cold and dark, but adding the third
dimension of ice puts me in the car.

Bicycle militants turn more people off than they convert to the joys
of riding for actual transportation.

People just need to ride when they can, and extol the virtues of
riding with purpose to encourage others. People willingly join like
minded people, and they move away from extremists.

 

[Jym Dyer]

>> Very few people ride a bike to work
> Your "very few" is actually a rather large number in Portland, OR.

=v= In San Francisco and New York City, as well.
<_Jym_>

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Oh please. In the US, people do NOT pay directly for the true cost, but
>> it is hidden in other expenses.
>
> The true cost of riding a bicycle is huge, and hidden by nonsense posted
> here.

True. If more people biked more, the medical industry could potentially
lose millions.

 

[Tom Sherman]

George Conklin wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Oh please. In the US, people do NOT pay directly for the true cost, but
>> it is hidden in other expenses.
>
> The true cost of riding a bicycle is huge, and hidden by nonsense posted
> here.
>
Now that is just being silly. How does riding a bicycle impose huge
costs, especially compared to the individual motor vehicle?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

George Conklin wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jack May wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> George Conklin wrote:
>>>>> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Showers and lockers could be provided for less than the cost of "free"
>>>> parking, when the externalities are accounted for.
>>> A company needs "free" parking to be able to attract the people they
> want to
>>> hire. Very few people ride a bike to work. Showers and lockers are
> still
>>> installed these days for people that exercise at work.
>>>
>> Pretty poor excuse for a society then, eh?
>>
>> If people had to pay the true cost of motor vehicles, we would see a lot
>> more commuter cyclists.
>>
> You have that totally backwards. Turning a 15 minute commute into a one
> and half hour commute at standard wage rates means that you are wasting
> several hours per day of productive work time, and you arrive at work
> exhausted to boot.
>
Nonsense. Riding a bicycle is fun! Regular exercise makes a person LESS
tired.

Get out of your cage!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

George Conklin wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> George Conklin wrote:
>>> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> ...
>>>> And on the other hand, there seems to be a perception among
>>>> a lot of people that cycling is just too inconvenient -- that
>>>> one must dress funny, "brave" the elements, and risk their
>>>> neck among motorized traffic. They don't realize it doesn't
>>>> have to be such a big deal.
>>>>
>>> In this climate, I would need a shower and chaning room in the buildings
> at
>>> work, since I would arrive totally 100% soaked through 8 months of the
> year.
>>> Also, a change of clothes and a place to wash them. So you would need
>>> locker rooms too.
>> Showers and lockers could be provided for less than the cost of "free"
>> parking, when the externalities are accounted for.
>
> So who gets free parking? And those externalities are infinite if you
> are one of those bicycle militants.
>
Every place I have ever worked at has had an employee parking lot.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
"George Conklin" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <t%Ngj.4940$O97.2830@trndny01>,
>> Stephen Harding <[email protected]> writes:
>> > donquijote1954 wrote:
>> >> On Jan 7, 5:09 pm, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>George Conklin wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> If you are concerned with your health, you won't be riding a
> bicycle. Too
>> >>>>many accidents per mile.
>> >>>
>> >>>Like how many?
>> >>>
>> >>>Cite please.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> It's just a fear the system plants on you. It doesn't have to be real
>> >> though. Just enough so people give up bicycles and buy SUVs.
>> >
>> > That's a fair point.
>> >
>> > However I've come to believe people eschew bicycle commuting
>> > not so much because it's seen as a death wish, but more that
>> > such a view makes a convenient excuse.
>> >
>> > Let's face it, hopping in the dino-juice buggy can be awfully
>> > convenient!
>>
>> And on the other hand, there seems to be a perception among
>> a lot of people that cycling is just too inconvenient -- that
>> one must dress funny, "brave" the elements, and risk their
>> neck among motorized traffic. They don't realize it doesn't
>> have to be such a big deal.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Tom
>
> In this climate, I would need a shower and chaning room in the buildings at
> work, since I would arrive totally 100% soaked through 8 months of the year.

I bet I live in a wetter climate than you.

With my riding raingear on, I stay much drier
than if I'd walked.

I don't need a shower. I'm a warehouse worker.
I'm gonna get sweaty anyways, unloading shipments
in marine containers from China to provide people
like you with your cheap ****.

> Also, a change of clothes and a place to wash them. So you would need
> locker rooms too.

People who ride to jobs where they need to be fresh
simply keep their fresh clothes at their worksites.
And they don't need a full-on shower. A quick refresher
at the washroom sink does the trick, perhaps along with
an application of their pit-stick of choice.

It's really easy and do-able.

Ride past the gas station you usualy stop at, and
thumb your nose at 'em. Maybe even give 'em a
Flatbush cheer, while sticking your thumbs in your
ears and waving all your fingers at 'em.

If you can ride no-handed.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Tadej Brezina]

George Conklin wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>If people had to pay the true cost of motor vehicles, we would see a lot
>>more commuter cyclists.
>
> You have that totally backwards. Turning a 15 minute commute into a one
> and half hour commute at standard wage rates means that you are wasting
> several hours per day of productive work time, and you arrive at work
> exhausted to boot.

1. Since when does the alleged loss of "time" is being changed by the
billing rate? Time is time. That's not even backwards, that's totally
confused reasoning!
2. What you may consider as a alleged loss of work time, others would
consider in gained life-time due to increased physical fitness.
3. If one needs 1.5 hours by bike for the distance you commute by car in
0.25 hours, one should get his/her ass on a bike as quick as possible!
(An estimated - high! - avg. commuting speed of 50km/h makes 12.5km,
makes slightly above 8km/h avg. bike speed if traveled by bike in 1.5h)

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <[email protected]> writes:

> Bicycle militants turn more people off than they convert to the joys
> of riding for actual transportation.

???

I don't think I've ever met a bicycle militant.
I've met lots of car militants, though.

I've even had a number of car militants aim at me, not
only while I was awheel, but also while I was afoot.

If there actually /are/ bicycle militants, car militants
are better-armed, just like the guys who shot the
war-protesting students at Kent State.

Car militants are a bunch of dangerous, self-centred,
anti-social mutton-heads.

Much more so than any bicycle militant ever could be.

Car militants turned me off of the notion of ever driving.

I guess it's just not in me to dive into a waller 'cuz
I covet the hawgs.

Anyways, "bicycle militant" is as oxymoronic as
"B'hai'an militant."

There /are/ anti-car militants who suggest bicycles as
an alternative form of transportation. But that's an
horse of a different colour. And I'll bet dollars to
donut holes a bunch of 'em don't even ride, or otherwise
put their money where their mouth is.


peace out,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Tadej Brezina]

Tom Keats wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>In article <t%Ngj.4940$O97.2830@trndny01>,
>>>Stephen Harding <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>>donquijote1954 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Jan 7, 5:09 pm, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>George Conklin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are concerned with your health, you won't be riding a
>>
>>bicycle. Too
>>
>>>>>>>many accidents per mile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Like how many?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cite please.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It's just a fear the system plants on you. It doesn't have to be real
>>>>>though. Just enough so people give up bicycles and buy SUVs.
>>>>
>>>>That's a fair point.
>>>>
>>>>However I've come to believe people eschew bicycle commuting
>>>>not so much because it's seen as a death wish, but more that
>>>>such a view makes a convenient excuse.
>>>>
>>>>Let's face it, hopping in the dino-juice buggy can be awfully
>>>>convenient!
>>>
>>>And on the other hand, there seems to be a perception among
>>>a lot of people that cycling is just too inconvenient -- that
>>>one must dress funny, "brave" the elements, and risk their
>>>neck among motorized traffic. They don't realize it doesn't
>>>have to be such a big deal.
>>>
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>Tom
>>
>>In this climate, I would need a shower and chaning room in the buildings at
>>work, since I would arrive totally 100% soaked through 8 months of the year.
>
>
> I bet I live in a wetter climate than you.
>
> With my riding raingear on, I stay much drier
> than if I'd walked.
>
> I don't need a shower. I'm a warehouse worker.
> I'm gonna get sweaty anyways, unloading shipments
> in marine containers from China to provide people
> like you with your cheap ****.
>
>
>>Also, a change of clothes and a place to wash them. So you would need
>>locker rooms too.
>
>
> People who ride to jobs where they need to be fresh
> simply keep their fresh clothes at their worksites.
> And they don't need a full-on shower. A quick refresher
> at the washroom sink does the trick, perhaps along with
> an application of their pit-stick of choice.
>
> It's really easy and do-able.
>
> Ride past the gas station you usualy stop at, and
> thumb your nose at 'em. Maybe even give 'em a
> Flatbush cheer, while sticking your thumbs in your
> ears and waving all your fingers at 'em.
>
> If you can ride no-handed.

I guess it's not that risky riding free-handed if George's avg. cycling
speed is 8km/h!*) ;-)

Tadej
*) See previous message in this thread!
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>

 

[Tadej Brezina]

George Conklin wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
>>Oh please. In the US, people do NOT pay directly for the true cost, but
>>it is hidden in other expenses.
>
>
> The true cost of riding a bicycle is huge, and hidden by nonsense posted
> here.

What do YOU consider huge? Bigger or still smaller than that of other
means of transport like private cars, public transport, etc.?

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tadej Brezina wrote:
> ...
> 3. If one needs 1.5 hours by bike for the distance you commute by car in
> 0.25 hours, one should get his/her ass on a bike as quick as possible!
> (An estimated - high! - avg. commuting speed of 50km/h makes 12.5km,
> makes slightly above 8km/h avg. bike speed if traveled by bike in 1.5h)

Well, I used to have a 25 km commute, with an average speed of over 90
kph, but that is unusual.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tadej Brezina]

Tom Sherman wrote:

> Tadej Brezina wrote:
>
>> ...
>> 3. If one needs 1.5 hours by bike for the distance you commute by car
>> in 0.25 hours, one should get his/her ass on a bike as quick as possible!
>> (An estimated - high! - avg. commuting speed of 50km/h makes 12.5km,
>> makes slightly above 8km/h avg. bike speed if traveled by bike in 1.5h)
>
>
> Well, I used to have a 25 km commute, with an average speed of over 90
> kph, but that is unusual.

Door to door?
In a city or agglomeration?
At usual commuting times?

That is really fairly unusal!
Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tadej Brezina wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>> Tadej Brezina wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> 3. If one needs 1.5 hours by bike for the distance you commute by car
>>> in 0.25 hours, one should get his/her ass on a bike as quick as
>>> possible!
>>> (An estimated - high! - avg. commuting speed of 50km/h makes 12.5km,
>>> makes slightly above 8km/h avg. bike speed if traveled by bike in 1.5h)
>>
>>
>> Well, I used to have a 25 km commute, with an average speed of over 90
>> kph, but that is unusual.
>
> Door to door?
> In a city or agglomeration?
> At usual commuting times?
>
> That is really fairly unusal!
>
I lived very near an interchange to a controlled access highway, and
work was also very near an interchange. For most of the trip my speed
was in the 105 to 115 kph range.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[George Conklin]

"Amy Blankenship" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >> Oh please. In the US, people do NOT pay directly for the true cost, but
> >> it is hidden in other expenses.
> >
> > The true cost of riding a bicycle is huge, and hidden by nonsense posted
> > here.
>
> True. If more people biked more, the medical industry could potentially
> lose millions.
>
>

Broken legs would make up the difference quickly. Bicycles are dangerous on
a per-mile basis.