In the drops

[wbkski]

I'd like to get everyone's feedback on riding in the drops during a race. In particular....downwind. As a sailor, you want to capture as much wind as possible during your downwind run. For that, we use a spinnaker sail. It's normally the largest sail in a boats collection.

In cycling does the same apply? I've been told that in racing (crits) to do everything in the drops. I can certainly see the advantages of that, but, does it apply in the downwind situation? Are you gaining more push from the wind by being on the hoods or do you give up any notable advantage because you are in a less-aero position?

Thanks!
Brian K.

 

[Dave Pace]

IMO you really should be in the drops unless 1 of the following are true.

1. You are getting water or food bag.
2. you are going up hill 3% or greater <- that is of course unless you like to punish yourself then by all means stay in the drops.
3. slowing down.
4. Taking look at that fine ass that you just passed.

The wind at your back or in front does not matter. Yes you would get the push from the wind if you are strait up, but unlike a sale you are not aerodynamically correct to use it efficiently like a sail is designed to. Stay down and get r done.

 

[maydog]

Unless you are coasting, you will be travelling faster than the wind speed which will put the apparent wind in your face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_wind

Stay small to make the most of your energy reserves.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by maydog .

Unless you are coasting, you will be travelling faster than the wind speed which will put the apparent wind in your face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_wind

Stay small to make the most of your energy reserves.

Exactly.

Try this, tie a piece of yarn to the front of your handlebars at the stem clamp. When you're riding along and that telltale (if we're using sailing analogies) points out in front of you then go ahead and sit up tall to engage your natural spinnaker.

Problem is, it'll never happen. You'll always be pushing into an apparent headwind on a bike, if you're not then you're being chased by some gale force winds and you'd better get indoors in a hurry. On a powered vehicle like a bike we'll almost always increase the power to the pedals to go faster and with a tailwind we'll just go faster yet until limited by the power requirements needed to overcome that apparent wind and things like rolling resistance. I suppose at some crazy high speed we'd stop trying to accelerate into the wind but that doesn't really happen during situations we normally ride in especially during a crit.

During a crit, ride in the drops unless the pace is really relaxed and slow and you're in no danger of losing positions or being dropped. But if you're going hard or especially if you're trying to close a gap or chasing down a group, ride in your drops.

-Dave

 

[danfoz]

Not so important if you are 3 riders back but if towing the pace line, regardless of wind direction, stay in those drops as everyone behind will be blocking any tailwind, no matter how fast it's rolling up on you.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by wbkski .

I'd like to get everyone's feedback on riding in the drops during a race. In particular....downwind. As a sailor, you want to capture as much wind as possible during your downwind run. For that, we use a spinnaker sail. It's normally the largest sail in a boats collection.

In cycling does the same apply? I've been told that in racing (crits) to do everything in the drops. I can certainly see the advantages of that, but, does it apply in the downwind situation? Are you gaining more push from the wind by being on the hoods or do you give up any notable advantage because you are in a less-aero position?

Thanks!
Brian K.

Position is not very important until you are going 25-30mph relative to the wind. So with a 20mph tail wind you would need to be doing 45-50 before position on the bike is important.

At 25mph (no wind) I am on the hoods. I don't have a big enough gear on my bike to pedal at 45-50mph.

---

A lot of guys are not very strong and they think that riding on the drops will give them an advantage in crits. The strong guys and those who have a reasonable view of their strength compared to others in the crit tend to ride on the hoods until the end.

 

[alienator]

As usual, AOG is wrong.

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


Position is not very important until you are going 25-30mph relative to the wind. So with a 20mph tail wind you would need to be doing 45-50 before position on the bike is important.

Do you even ride a bike?

 

[Dave Pace]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


A lot of guys are not very strong and they think that riding on the drops will give them an advantage in crits. The strong guys and those who have a reasonable view of their strength compared to others in the crit tend to ride on the hoods until the end.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

He's going 35 MPH pulling 200 guys lined out behind him in his awesome wake of misery and woe and he mocks your advice.




The guy in the wooden shoes says, "No wai!".



Pull thru?!?! No Way! I'm too awesome to be anywhere but up front!



I'm Spartacus, *****es! My nose is in the wind and I've got the pain machine set on 11. And some guys on the intarwebz say I'm doing it wrong?!



Look at me! I got 'em strung out from here to Ankora!







I will give you the opposite advice. Only ride on the drops or in the hooks when you HAVE to. Even in stoopidfast crits there's plenty of time to get on the hoods and relax it up a bit.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

Arms parallel to the ground when on the hoods like the clever boy in red is actually the most aero position available on a road bike - having effectively removed the surface area of the forearm from the equation there's less frontal area. Doesn't work so great in a sprint though.

But I digress, see so many dudes tryin' to look like the pros with their slammed stems they can't even reach the frickin' drops... but their bikes sure do look cool.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"But I digress, see so many dudes tryin' to look like the pros with their slammed stems they can't even reach the frickin' drops... but their bikes sure do look cool."

Long & low be oh so pro!

I still think using the armrests for pulls is the most pro looking move!




Especially if you're texting to your buds just how awesome you are!

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Pittsfield crit...see anyone on the drops or in the hooks?



Get down there when you need to be down there.

 

[danfoz]

4 man break at this weekend's race in Prospect Park, Brooklyn... where some folks still remember how to ride a bike.

 

[wbkski]

Ok... you guys have made your point. I just did a 120mile race today and so I'm starting a new thread... The Bonk. I hope to hear from all of you.

Thanks everyone!
WBK

 

[alienator]

Arms parallel to the ground when on the hoods like the clever boy in red is actually the most aero position available on a road bike - having effectively removed the surface area of the forearm from the equation there's less frontal area. Doesn't work so great in a sprint though. But I digress, see so many dudes tryin' to look like the pros with their slammed stems they can't even reach the frickin' drops... but their bikes sure do look cool.

What's wrong with you? Obviously slamming the stem is way more important than getting the right fit.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by alienator .


What's wrong with you? Obviously slamming the stem is way more important than getting the right fit.

Exactly! Slammed stem and pro kit is the important thing, 'cause it's better to look marrrrvelous than ride marrrrvelous

Sure, if you're comfortable with the speed and not at risk of getting gapped or dropped then ride any way you like but when I see Cat 5 and Cat 4 riders chasing for all they're worth to close gaps while riding the brake hoods you've just gotta ask WTF? I'm sure the folks up on their hoods solidly tucked in the field aren't posting a lot of questions like this on internet forums and know where to put their hands on their bikes in different situations.

The slammed stem thing and efforts to emulate pros does confuse things. Pros used to ride relatively high positions up top combined with deep drop bars and then got into those hooks at speed. These days folks slam -17 degree stems on bikes with relatively short head tubes and then ride up on the hoods a lot. For a lot of us that means shallow drop bars if we actually want to ride in the drops for any extended periods as classic deep drops combined with low front ends is hard for most of us to ride.

...Arms parallel to the ground when on the hoods like the clever boy in red is actually the most aero position available on a road bike...

All I can say is test this before accepting it as a general truth. I've Chung tested my hoods, forearms parallel to drops position and the drops are definitely more aero for me. I didn't believe it at first as the forearms horizontal position feels so damn fast and was my go to road TT position for years but the numbers are very repeatable and it's clear I lower my CdA in the drops vs the high TT position. Of course invisible aerobar position is faster yet and actual clip on aerobars is my fastest position on the road bike. Do some PM or rolldown testing to see what works best for you as YMMV.

-Dave

 

[CAMPYBOB]

That chase back on can be a 20-second effort or it can be a 5-minute fight for your life.

Where do you make your power and how long can you hold that position making that power and how much oxygen can you get to your muscles in what position?

Not so comfortably shielded in the field:



He won the Irish nats. Must know a little bit. Or maybe he never heard of Chung or a coast-down test. At any rate, he knows what works and when to use what position.

Tour of Utah Cat. 1:



Who has got the best back position, Mr. Knobs or the drops squad? Michigan Masters crit, not a Cat. 5 clusterfuck.



How dare he not only lead, but pull away from the field...on the flats? UNPOSSIBLE!



Glencoe GP...thankfully, he didn't have to chase in that un-aero position. I wonder what position he makes his power in?

Use the drops when you have you. Otherwise, unlax doc. Just a counterpoint...

 

[alienator]

All I can say is test this before accepting it as a general truth. I've Chung tested my hoods, forearms parallel to drops position and the drops are definitely more aero for me. I didn't believe it at first as the forearms horizontal position feels so damn fast and was my go to road TT position for years but the numbers are very repeatable and it's clear I lower my CdA in the drops vs the high TT position. Of course invisible aerobar position is faster yet and actual clip on aerobars is my fastest position on the road bike. Do some PM or rolldown testing to see what works best for you as YMMV. -Dave

Good advice. The aerodynamics of the forearms level position isn't just a matter of taking forearms out of the equation. Even when parallel they still add drag (both form drag and skin friction). More importantly, there's complex flow interaction in the volume of air that includes the forearms and the angled chest. Aerodynamics don't necessarily provide the black and white answers that magazine journos or companies claim. Given the range of morphology in humans, it's tough to make absolute claims about the aerodynamics of a human corpus.

 

[danfoz]

Hehe ya forget a little winky icon and all hell breaks loose. Good points all around.

I did a TT couple years ago using some new clip on bars. In retrospect I may have actually done a better time in the open cannibal category (using no aero gear) as I hadn't really developed maximum efficiency in the new position and may have not been putting all my available pedal to the metal despite the theoretically more efficient aero position.