In the drops
- Thread starter wbkski
- Start date
It's a stem without any spacers beneath it. If you need visual, google "Slam That Stem". It's a website that's all about showing pictures of bikes with slammed stems. It's the roadie equivalent of sites that show hipsters in skinny jeans or lumberjack attire standing next to their fixies that are decorated with spokes stuffed with playing cards, pictures, and ironic statements.wbkski said:
Ideally the saddle/stem relationship is a function of one's height (taller guys generally have larger differences). one's available flexibility, and one's desired levels of comfort vs. aerodynamics, but luckily with the advent of heroically tall head tubes even granpa Fred can likely find a bike who's stem can be slammed.
So...based on the last two posts, I'd have to say it's probably a personal preference rather than some extremely important positioning adjustment? I have two spacers on my stem...the equivalent of 3/4 of an inch. Maybe I'm blind but I can see how taking them out is going to make any significant difference.
What's a bit ironic is that it was generally ok when we used to run threaded headsets and quill stems to raise or lower your stem to the correct height, within the recommended limits, without criticism, but now that we have fewer bike sizes (in general) and require spacers and/or various stem angles and lengths to adjust stem height, you get criticized if you don't run a -17° stem with no more than a 5-10mm spacer. It must make sense in some other universe.
And I would go so far as to add that bike fit is, much like getting a haircut, a chore in which personal preference should strongly be considered by the fitter. And a chore, even when done with qualified hands, can leave us feeling unsatisfied.
But some thought on your closing sentence:
1. Bike racers are always seeking gains, even incrementally, so if lowering that stem will see a .000001 mph gain (it can actually be a bit more significant depending on the adjustment) we'll do it.
2. Some old Italian bike racer once said "First, beat them with your style". Spoken like a true Italian.
3. I have been a student of bike fit (my own) since lining up at my first bike race in the 80's. I have arrived at a saddle/stem relationship that if undercut by even an additional 5mm will potentially have my lower back going out after a hard ride, and going any higher will have me feeling like I have less control on a fast decent. my absolute favorite thing to do on a bike. The longer time one spends on a bike, and the longer time one spends in a particular position, the larger these seemingly insignificant adjustments will feel.
I'll also add that if you spend long enough in a less-than-optimal position, you may get used to it, and a change will be more difficult. It took me a while to realize on my current bike that I was too hunched over, something I naturally do anyway, but it's not good for my back. So, I went from a 70mm stem to a 130mm stem--a huge difference, but my back is definitely straighter now. However, it took several hundred miles for me to get used to--my back would tire of being straight after 10, 20, 30 miles, then I would end up straightening out my arms to compensate and allow my back to arch, regressing into something like the old position. Now I can ride 70 miles with my back straight, no problem, and it's easier on the body that way, since I'm getting to be of an age where these things matter much more than they did in my teens and early 20s.
Yep, in the universe of the 'how cool and super pro do I look?'
I must admit I like the aesthetics of a -17 degree stem on a road bike but don't feel the need to slam it. Probably just an old school holdover from quill stems and the way bikes looked back then where race bikes typically had their stems horizontal the ground (but at varying heights depending on quill insertion as pointed out above).
I can't run a -17 on my cyclocross bike and get the position I'm after, at least I can't with the stock steering tube length so I run a rise stem but I still like the look of a -17 (at an appropriate height) when possible.
As mentioned above I do think a big part of the drops question is how your bike is set up. With the current trend towards slammed stems a lot of folks are already riding very low on their brake hoods and as our favorite copy and paste debater has demonstrated a lot of pros ride up top even when hammering at the front. If that works for you then great but personally if I'm gonna ride on a dropped handlebar bike I want that drop position the be useful and set the bike up so that I can spend time down there racing when we're going fast and hammering into the wind. For me that's a reasonably low hoods position combined with shallow drop bars that give two decently low positions and then a high bar top position for longer climbs or super relaxed riding.
I still hold for folks that need to ask the question or for folks struggling to complete their first fast races they should be down in the drops on a well fitted bike that allows use of that position anytime they're hammering into the wind and chasing or closing gaps at speed. If you can drive the pace up front, know you've got the engine to ride different positions and not put yourself at risk of losing contact then you aren't the guy asking these questions and just do what works. But for beginning racers on these boards I'd strongly recommend riding down in the drops when fighting the wind at speed and when racing in close quarters with other lower category racers as having your hands down in the hooks greatly reduces the chances that someone will hook bars with you. But sure if you're relaxed and cruising along during slower periods of racing or aren't at risk of getting shelled then it doesn't really matter.
-Dave
Good points by all. Is it necessary to spend $250 on bike fit using the computers and stuff, or, are the traditional methods still sufficient? I get the age thing for sure... I'm 56 and just getting into racing. I realize what my limitations are, but, like anyone else who's competitive, I do look for the advantages where ever they may be.
2012 Junior Nats...guess who beat who to the line? Sprinting? Damn that cut-n-paste!
wbkski, a fitting may help and it may cause problems. How long have you been cycling and what is your level of proficiency? Injuries or disabilities? How good are you at dialing in your position on the bike? Are you comfortable? Are you fast? What is your training miles/time? Can you hunker down for an hour on the drops with a 17° stem? J/K!
Got $250 and a day to invest...go! You might learn something cool about your setup.
Old Man racing is hard, with lots of very fit grey hair ex-fast boys from the upper Cats. But, it's generally the safest racing as a category.
wbkski, a fitting may help and it may cause problems. How long have you been cycling and what is your level of proficiency? Injuries or disabilities? How good are you at dialing in your position on the bike? Are you comfortable? Are you fast? What is your training miles/time? Can you hunker down for an hour on the drops with a 17° stem? J/K!
Got $250 and a day to invest...go! You might learn something cool about your setup.
Old Man racing is hard, with lots of very fit grey hair ex-fast boys from the upper Cats. But, it's generally the safest racing as a category.
Wow, one junior nearly twice the size of another junior won a flat sprint. Who would've guessed?
Please cut and paste some photos of Cav sprinting from the hoods in a pro bunch sprint, I'm sure you can surf the web for some images of that. I actually figure you'll find some of those as I have infinite respect for your ability to surf image banks, not that it actually makes a complelling argument or establishes anything.
But again, the advice above is for those that need to ask or those that struggle with the speed of fast racing. If you can ride where you want at will or win races from the hoods, the tops, or with your hands behind your back then you aren't asking these questions. Perhaps you can cut and paste some visuals to debate that.
-Dave
Please cut and paste some photos of Cav sprinting from the hoods in a pro bunch sprint, I'm sure you can surf the web for some images of that. I actually figure you'll find some of those as I have infinite respect for your ability to surf image banks, not that it actually makes a complelling argument or establishes anything.
But again, the advice above is for those that need to ask or those that struggle with the speed of fast racing. If you can ride where you want at will or win races from the hoods, the tops, or with your hands behind your back then you aren't asking these questions. Perhaps you can cut and paste some visuals to debate that.
-Dave
"Wow, one junior nearly twice the size of another junior won a flat sprint."
Yeah...and she's probably a bar-hooking wheelsucker, too.
"...not that it actually makes a complelling argument or establishes anything."
Actually, it does. Graphic images of success with no need to be in the drops.
Not everyone makes power on the drops. Not everyone uses your fit.
My advice remains the same. Stay off the drops and out of the hooks until you need them. That advice goes for a junior, a novice, a pro, a vet. Will you need to be in the drops? Sure. Sometimes.
Yeah...and she's probably a bar-hooking wheelsucker, too.
"...not that it actually makes a complelling argument or establishes anything."
Actually, it does. Graphic images of success with no need to be in the drops.
Not everyone makes power on the drops. Not everyone uses your fit.
My advice remains the same. Stay off the drops and out of the hooks until you need them. That advice goes for a junior, a novice, a pro, a vet. Will you need to be in the drops? Sure. Sometimes.
I can certainly see the advantages to both. I would suspect that on a longer ride (100 miles+), a relative amount of comfort would play nicely into the longevity aspects. Conversely, who cares about comfort when you're in a crit looking to get that .01 mph advantage. I wish there were a lot of the "old man" racers in the crits that I attend. I could ask them a lot of dumb questions that I'm asking here, and, thanks to all of you, are willing to answer. Unfortunately, its the 20/30 something's that I'm up against. No complaints...just fact. I know I will race a race where I place...it will feel SOOOOOOOO good too! LOL
It sounds like our advice is actually the same.
So by your advice, when does someone 'need them'?
I have not said you need to be there every moment of every race. I have repeatedly stated that racers should be there when they're struggling with speed and fighting the wind. I also believe that it is safer from the standpoint of getting tangled up with other riders but I admit this is based on observation and experience with no hard data to back it up.
And no, your evidence establishes nothing, would the winning junior have been a full bike length ahead had he sprinted in the drops, will he lose his next sprint to a better matched sprinter because he sprints high and tall? No way to know but if I was coaching that junior I'd strongly suggest sprinting in the drops as getting beat by half a wheel by not paying attention to basics is just foolish.
If your bike is setup such that you can't produce power in the drops or ride there then why do you ride a dropped handlebar bike. Perhaps a flat bar bike might be better for the riding you do.
If you're going to race, set your bike up such that the drops are useable. But you don't actually race do you?
-Dave
"It sounds like our advice is actually the same."
Yes and no. You seem to be advocating using them...well..your example of not having the engine baffles me. If you don't have the engine and are off the back, we could ride with our aero ass facing forward and not get back on. Same with going off the front. If you don't make your power down low or breath as well down low it's going to be a short, fruitless and wasted effort.
"So by your advice, when does someone 'need them'?"
When all else fails. When you want a position change. When you're descending so stoopidfast you're almost pissing yourself. Short honks up a wall. Some head down work. Time trials after the bumps have bruised your forearms. Otherwise, stay relaxed and get the power out. Most riders can get plenty low on the hoods, like you pointed out.
"If you're going to race, set your bike up such that the drops are useable."
Well, yeah. We differ on how much. YMMV.
'But you don't actually race do you?"
Yes, unattached these days and living too far to travel for training with the team.
If you ever get to Ohio I'll show you my humble trophy cabinet.It's not much, but there's a story to go with every medal, cup and plaque. You bring the beer.
Here's some Cat. 5 ragers to keep you entertained.
Malvern, Pa. crit.:
Relaxing it up in a Houston Cat. 5 crit:
University Oaks Crit Cat. 4/5
Yup...resulted in a bad case of bar hook! On the straight! Damned Cat. 5's!
Yes and no. You seem to be advocating using them...well..your example of not having the engine baffles me. If you don't have the engine and are off the back, we could ride with our aero ass facing forward and not get back on. Same with going off the front. If you don't make your power down low or breath as well down low it's going to be a short, fruitless and wasted effort.
"So by your advice, when does someone 'need them'?"
When all else fails. When you want a position change. When you're descending so stoopidfast you're almost pissing yourself. Short honks up a wall. Some head down work. Time trials after the bumps have bruised your forearms. Otherwise, stay relaxed and get the power out. Most riders can get plenty low on the hoods, like you pointed out.
"If you're going to race, set your bike up such that the drops are useable."
Well, yeah. We differ on how much. YMMV.
'But you don't actually race do you?"
Yes, unattached these days and living too far to travel for training with the team.
If you ever get to Ohio I'll show you my humble trophy cabinet.It's not much, but there's a story to go with every medal, cup and plaque. You bring the beer.
Here's some Cat. 5 ragers to keep you entertained.
Malvern, Pa. crit.:
Relaxing it up in a Houston Cat. 5 crit:
University Oaks Crit Cat. 4/5
Yup...resulted in a bad case of bar hook! On the straight! Damned Cat. 5's!
Yes. My bike is setup to allow me to use the position I use most of the time, i.e. on the hoods, and to also allow me to comfortably use the drops. I can't see doing big descents, like on twisty mountain roads, on the hoods. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and I've learned that it isn't fun. There's no justifiable reason (outside of some physical impairment.......maybe) for not setting up a rider's position such that they can't use the drops easily. Moreover, until someone shows me their wind tunnel data which indicates that their most aero position isn't in the drops, there's no meat in that sandwich. Lastly, it doesn't take any mental effort whatsoever to realize that given all the missing data from a picture or even a video adds up to show that a picture really doesn't show much other than who was in what position (both on the bike and in a race) at a given moment in time or for the film, over a given finite time interval. I am of course excluding the case of a pedaling expert and his analysis of Jacque Anquetil's pedal stroke and the obviously inferred power output, all of which lead to a revolutionary (in one person's mind, anyway) development of linear pedaling.daveryanwyoming said:
Similar threads
- Tispectrum
- Road Cycling