Is it possible to improve VO2max from year to year?



Andy SG

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Aug 15, 2007
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Reading a lot in this forum I've become more and more interessted in intervall and high intensity training.

Looking into different approaches I see for instance that Morris in his book go for a lot of high intensity intervall training in his examples, compared to some of the active here. I realize that there is a relationship between FTP and VO2max and my understanding is - a bit simplified - that working with VO2max intervalls, you raise the ceiling/max for FTP, while i.e. 20 minutes intervalls increase the % of the max you can use during a longer time. Then there is a lot of interaction so ...

Now to my question: I read in some litterature that a person reach his potential VO2max after 3-5 years of training, and after that the potential is reached. At the same time people here are reporting increased FTP year by year. What does it mean? Is the VO2max also changing, or are they just getting closer and closer FTP - VO2max, or are there other effects?
 
Yes, probably. In untrained people VO2max is limited by the working muslce ability to consume oxygen.

The muscles themselves can be trained to consume 300% more oxygen (when compared to untrained state). However, stroke volume then becomes limiting factor i.e. your heart/lungs can not pump as much oxygen to the working muscles as they can cosume.

If you are reasonably trained, you can "increase" your VO2max immeditaly by breathing oxygen enriched air while performing the exersise, since your VO2max is most likely limited by the stroke volume.

It would be funny to see athletes start doping on oxygen enriched air. I wonder if this is illegal (i.e. instead of team car delivering water bottles, you take a breather of oxygne enriched air, like what first aid paramedics give to fire/smoke choking victims).
 
Andy SG said:
... I realize that there is a relationship between FTP and VO2max and my understanding is - a bit simplified - that working with VO2max intervalls, you raise the ceiling/max for FTP, while i.e. 20 minutes intervalls increase the % of the max you can use during a longer time...
You're on the right track, but there's a difference between VO2 Max in ml/lkg/min and power @ VO2 Max in watts. Both are trainable, but they're not necessarily the same thing and a direct comparison of sustainable watts(FTP) to oxygen uptake(VO2 Max) is tough. There are models out there that estimate VO2 Max in ml/kg/min to power at VO2 Max in watts, but like all models they're based on typical relationships between the two and may or may not predict those relationships for a particular athlete.

But your description of VO2 Max setting a ceiling and FTP representing an obtainable percentage of that ceiling is accurate. One goal of training is to raise the overall ceiling and another is to improve your efficiency in terms of what you can sustain for long durations relative to your current ceiling. Luckily both seem to happen during L4 and SST training.

...Now to my question: I read in some litterature that a person reach his potential VO2max after 3-5 years of training, and after that the potential is reached. At the same time people here are reporting increased FTP year by year. What does it mean?...
Well the 3-5 year limit has to assume ideal training and lots of folks train sporadically or with random approaches and probably never reach their potential wrt VO2 Max or other fitness metrics. But there's still the question of whether power at VO2 Max can continue to improve after some limit in actual oxygen exchange is reached and then whether a rider can continue to improve on their sustainable percentage of their overall ceiling. Bottom line, many folks continue to improve their sustainable aerobic power for many years although the rate of improvement typically slows down with increased fitness. Is it because they never trained optimally or because aerobic gains don't necessarily stop after a fixed number of years? Does it matter as long as continued improvement is possible?

FWIW, the Morris method you cite is sometimes referred to as a "pull-up" approach to improving sustainable power. SST and L4 work can be thought of as a "push-up" approach. If done well they'll both increase capillary and mitochondrial densities in and around the working muscles. And those are two of the most important long term adapatations that result in greater sustainable power. The pull-up approach should work more quickly if you ignore training load and time in level.

But overall training load (CTL) and time in level are really important for building a strong aerobic base. From that standpoint the push-up method has big advantages. You can do a lot more work using the push-up approach both during each session and over the course of your training week. rmur gave a really good explanation of why in another thread this morning: http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=3656608#post3656608

Anyway, you'll find strong advocates for either approach to raising both FTP and VO2 Max power, but if you also want to build CTL to take you through a long season or to help with frequent events like multi day stage races then you should think about a push-up approach. That doesn't preclude L5 training to focus on raising your VO2 Max power, just that it emphasizes submaximal aerobic work for much of the training year. Personally I work SST and L4 most of the year and through the vast majority of my winter base build but introduce L5 work in late winter prior to spring racing.

Just some thoughts,
-Dave
 
root said:
In untrained people VO2max is limited by the working muslce ability to consume oxygen.

The capacity of muscle to consume O2 doesn't limit VO2max even in untrained individuals.
 
Andy SG said:
I read in some litterature that a person reach his potential VO2max after 3-5 years of training, and after that the potential is reached.

It may not even take that long, but as Dave points out, a lot depends on how the individual trains. Moreover, even small changes that are close to the usual limit of detection* may be critical at "the pointy end of the field".

*The measurement of VO2max is reproducible to w/in +/- ~2%, with most of that variability being biological in origin.
 
Thanks for all the response, I love this forum :)

daveryanwyoming said:
... But there's still the question of whether power at VO2 Max can continue to improve after some limit in actual oxygen exchange is reached and then whether a rider can continue to improve on their sustainable percentage of their overall ceiling. Bottom line, many folks continue to improve their sustainable aerobic power for many years although the rate of improvement typically slows down with increased fitness. Is it because they never trained optimally or because aerobic gains don't necessarily stop after a fixed number of years? Does it matter as long as continued improvement is possible?
Well yes, it matters to me, at least a bit. First, if you don't consume more oxygen, but can generate more power, what is then happening? It is of theoretical value for me. Secondly, and of more direct value, I wounder if one could make any conclusions based on the fact that reaching maximal potential VO2max would make you benifit more from SST oriented training. Following Morris I've gained a lot thru 4 minutes intervalls, but its not going that fast any more, and I'm not laughing every training session either. But boy, can I push my-self now days.

daveryanwyoming said:
FWIW, the Morris method you cite is sometimes referred to as a "pull-up" approach to improving sustainable power. SST and L4 work can be thought of as a "push-up" approach. If done well they'll both increase capillary and mitochondrial densities in and around the working muscles. And those are two of the most important long term adapatations that result in greater sustainable power. The pull-up approach should work more quickly if you ignore training load and time in level.
This is interesting for two reasons. First I would like to argue a bit by saying that there is a trend among elit XC skiiers at the moment, going from many hours near their threshold puls to more 4 minutes intervall oriented training. They benifit more from this even if they maybe drop from 1000 hours of training per year to 600 hours. This is often spoken of as "go for the heart" thats where the limit is, and it's best trained thru high intensity training.

But on the other hand, you refer to building a strong aerobic base, below. That means that you consider other benifits in endurance sport that relates to your aerobic core. What is that? I've seen this type of references before, but I have hard times to get an understanding. - I like the FTP thing BTW, just because it's easy to understand, and measure.

daveryanwyoming said:
But overall training load (CTL) and time in level are really important for building a strong aerobic base. From that standpoint the push-up method has big advantages. You can do a lot more work using the push-up approach both during each session and over the course of your training week. rmur gave a really good explanation of why in another thread this morning: http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=3656608#post3656608

Anyway, you'll find strong advocates for either approach to raising both FTP and VO2 Max power, but if you also want to build CTL to take you through a long season or to help with frequent events like multi day stage races then you should think about a push-up approach. ...

Just some thoughts,
-Dave
Thanks, again. Great post.
 
Andy SG said:
...First I would like to argue a bit by saying that there is a trend among elit XC skiiers at the moment, going from many hours near their threshold puls to more 4 minutes intervall oriented training. ...
Sorry, not interested in arguing, use whatever method appeals to you. But I'd be cautious about basing your training on the methods used by any elite athletes unless your background, base fitness, lifestyle and goals match theirs and you're convinced their methods will apply to your needs.

Good luck,
Dave
 
Well yes, it matters to me, at least a bit. First, if you don't consume more oxygen, but can generate more power, what is then happening? It is of theoretical value for me. Secondly, and of more direct value, I wounder if one could make any conclusions based on the fact that reaching maximal potential VO2max would make you benifit more from SST oriented training. Following Morris I've gained a lot thru 4 minutes intervalls, but its not going that fast any more, and I'm not laughing every training session either. But boy, can I push my-self now days.

You can see increases in power output at Vo2mAX after it has peaked as increases in efficiency allow you to produce more power from the same levels of oxygen consumption.
 
root said:
It would be funny to see athletes start doping on oxygen enriched air. I wonder if this is illegal (i.e. instead of team car delivering water bottles, you take a breather of oxygne enriched air, like what first aid paramedics give to fire/smoke choking victims).
This is probably already being done, but not for the reason you state.