It's killing me but..........



jsirabella

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Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Yep - all about travel for me. Local, national and international. I often put a bike in the back of the car in spring/summer unless I'm staying in the centre of a big city, and do get a few rides done, but mostly I just go pretty hard the days before I leave and treat them as 2 days rest like you. The problem for me comes on 5 day trips when I de-train, but frankly there is little I can do that I just have to put up with it and value the downtime afterwards.


190km, 410 TSS, 6.5hrs (3hr L3/1.5hr L4) in 3 days and the big question I'm contemplating is whether to rest tomorrow or ride? Being >40 I'm thinking a day off and then be fresher for a few more days good riding, rather than a **** day due to fatigue and have to rest anyway? Anyone have any clues on how to make these decisions?
We are definitely in the same boat when it comes to travel. I can loose a week at times and it would mess me up bad.

Your question is really good for me cause it was went I went through when the body was 100%. I could honestly go day after day with those kind of scores and not really need too much rest. Based upon my experience I would vote to rest and give the day after a really hard short ride and see what you can do.

The things I would look for during those time was the slope of the CTL. On a week by week I wanted to do like +4-5 or so I thought was good. More than that I was heading for a mental and physical crash. The only reason I am a little hesitant in your case is cause your CTL is in the 60s so I can see you being able to put out more now as opposed to when you get closer to an 80 but I still would not want too much too fast and would prefer a gradual build.

I do not know your ftp but the 230 sounded like you were not trying so I am not sure if you are more in the honeymoon stage or smaller gains stage in your cycling life but I would still take a day off, make sure good sleep and than try and do a shorter hard ride with the first interval being >.9 of the ftp and see how it feels. If it feels easy than I would than go for it. Otherwise dial back to L3/SST again.

-john
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

Felt, I bet you may see a small drop for a week or so and than the numbers will all come back again pretty fast.


-john
js, thanks for the encouragement and to Dave also for his encouragement.

Yesterday I felt the blocked up legs on a 2x60 it was a beast of a ride against the wind, but still felt good overall. Today was an attempt of another try at it and once again those headwinds were my friend by providing some good resistance to sustain the power output. Even though my CTL dropped, Dave was right that it wasn't enough days being off the bike to hurt my fitness. It was probably what I needed to be honest since I had a solid six weeks of pretty solid training.

Here is my write up of today's ride and I was very happy as to how things went.
http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/02/comet-better-than-yesterday.html
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Anyone have any clues on how to make these decisions?
Not me that is for sure /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

At some point I was like a Dave or RDO in the world of lifting, but coming into cycling I feel like I am at the bottom rung. It is sort of fun starting all over again and learning a lot of new things in the world of endurance that were never my care before.

I am kind of getting the hang of the basics. Having the power meter and software sure has helped.
 

Bigpikle

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Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .


Not me that is for sure /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

At some point I was like a Dave or RDO in the world of lifting, but coming into cycling I feel like I am at the bottom rung. It is sort of fun starting all over again and learning a lot of new things in the world of endurance that were never my care before.

I am kind of getting the hang of the basics. Having the power meter and software sure has helped.
..well I had the little voice in my head saying 'remember recovery is a key part of development' so I hung up the shoes for today and will be back out tomorrow. Likely have only 2 days before an enforced day off the bike, or maybe 2 plus a late rollers session, so will make them harder days with either longer tempo sessions or some more structured L4 stuff in them. Snow has appeared on the forecast again and I am really hoping I dont end up indoors again, but some good L4 work in the middle of all this tempo/SST work probably wont hurt /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 

Bigpikle

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I'll throw this out as a meandering thought, and welcome discussion and feedback....block periodisation /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Seems like a bit of a buzz right now and I guess in a way its what I'm aiming to do over the next few weeks. Its been an idea that has crept into my mind a few times in the last couple of years without knowing it was called this or where it came from and without any basis other than the fact that I get blocks of time in my calendar that allow me to vary my training routines for sometimes 7-10-14 days at a time. There seems to be 2 suggested ways to incorporate this into training and I'm wondering what people are thinking about it?

1. longer blocks of 3-6 weeks of single focus training, with the exact length depending on the focus and time of year. Probably nearest what I'm doing this month and well described by Friel in one of his blogs here. This structure appeals to me as it seems to incorporate the ideas of this thread around L3/SST/L4 work with the use of L5/6/7 work where required and L2 time to 'fill' the weeks and allow recovery between sessions.

2. shorter blocks of HIT, perhaps a week, with 2-3 weeks of low intensity/high volume work, described in this study. This obviously contradicts with the theme in this thread of lots of L3/4/SST work, but suggests the block focus might still be beneficial versus the traditional mixed focus periodisation.

What strikes me as interesting is simply the idea that concentration of specific narrow focus training might bring about more adaptions from that work than mixing it up. Might a 4 week block of almost exclusively L3 sessions bring about greater improvements in my 90-180 min power outputs than if I mixed fewer of those sessions with L4 & L2 and other work? Perhaps following that block with 3-4 weeks of dedicated L4 work might also lead to greater FTP improvements than throwing 1-2 L4 sessions into a more varied weekly schedule? Perhaps a final week of 4-5 L5 sessions a couple of weeks before my A event might give me that ultimate VO2 max boost and then taper for a couple of weeks to the event itself, rather than sprinkle 1 L5 session per week, along with the usual mix of L3 & L4 sessions for 6-8 weeks previously?

I guess I could be missing the point here, and we might argue L3/SST/L4 work is all the same thing really and suggesting we differentiate between these workouts is pointless, but I'm not so sure. My recent experience of lots of concentrated indoors training, on the rollers basically doing low L4 sessions for many weeks seems to have rewarded me with good fitness improvements in that area. I'm hoping this next block of lots of L3 work will do the same for my performance over longer durations, while making sure my FTP doesnt dip (the opposite of what I hope will actually happen of course). After that I'm not quite sure...

Thoughts?
 

jsirabella

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Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

I'll throw this out as a meandering thought, and welcome discussion and feedback....block periodisation /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Now you have gone above my head. This stuff I never understood and Dave/RDO will be the help here.

My other points were based upon my own experience and stuff you could have read here in other posts. Just so you know as I think Felt was hinting at that. I am no RDO/Dave for sure. I am a busted up weight lifter who was once a messenger in a former life that herniated a few discs along the way and is happy he is still riding at all.

The only thing I could really get out of the idea of periodization was to try and get your training to give you a peak at the point of an event you would like to do well in. I could never make that work. All I could do was basically this time of the year, lots of L3/SST/L4 and as I got closer to the crit circuit here I would do more L4/L5 and higher. I really did not have to train those areas on a trainer, I could just go out to CP any morning or night and you could get all you want.

Just grab a wheel and hang on for dear life....

-john
 

gudujarlson

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This is related to the thread I started yesterday.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/493689/periodization

I think there are many more than 2 ways to implement block periodization. The main things that need to be the same are:

1) a small set of abilities is trained in each block
2) an ordering of the blocks that takes advantage of the differing residual training effects of each block


I think its odd that Friel appears to break with requirement #1 in his implementation by scheduling L2 work in all blocks. This makes it look not much different than his traditional approach.

I'm also confused by the definition of linear periodization that is here (and other places) :

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/running/linear-vs-non-linear-periodization-in-running.aspx

that states, "Lydiard-style periodization is known as linear periodization because the various major training stimuli (aerobic, anaerobic, strength, speed, etc.) are largely segregated from each other in the training process and arranged in a line in which each gives way to the next. This approach is distinct from nonlinear periodization, in which the various major training stimuli are mixed together throughout the entire cycle and only the emphasis changes from period to period."

This definition of linear periodization looks much the same as Issurin's definition of block periodization.

If only there was some standardization of terms in the training world.
 

Bigpikle

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That would be nice and ranks just behind the standardisation of power supplies & chargers across the world!

Its the scheduling element that is interesting and might negate the process for me personally. I'm not a racer and have little interest in L6/7 work. Truth be told I'm not interested in L5 work either except that I fear it might soon become a limiting factor as my FTP grows this year, and who wouldnt want a slightly bigger VO2 max.... This really only leaves me work in L2/3/4 and any skills work (not sure I buy into the need for too many skills pedaling a bike - my wife would claim its all about left-right-left-right) and is there really any benefit from separate emphasis on those areas given they arent exactly discreet from one another?

Maybe this is where event specificity comes in? My A event is 200km long and has 2 long and 1 short but steep climb in it - probably 2 x 2hr tempo climbs and 1hr SST. I can see the accumulation stage as building base fitness (measured by FTP and ability to ride 200km???) and then the transmutation mesocycle being the time to focus on building power for 2hr lower cadence climbs. Perhaps realization is some VO2 work and then tapering?

I guess it all hinges on whether these are best developed through a narrow focus or whether they can be built concurrently? Oh, and of course, all the theory suggests this is best for advanced athlete anyway, so that might be me out for a few years /img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif
 

gudujarlson

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If you intend to ride the entire event solo like a time trial then v02max, AWC, and sprinting might seem less than decisive. However, if you are going to ride it with a group then things might be different. Groups rides tend to be more variable. Either way, Lydiard still recommended anaerobic intervals for his marathoners. I don't really understand why though.

My first event sounds similar to yours. I will be riding in a 105 mile mass start race on hilly dirt roads. The hills will be in the under 400 foot range and steep. The top guys finish in 6-7 hours. I plan to finish in 8-10 hours. Because of length I will need to pace myself in the L2-L3 range, but there will probably be lots of forays above that. My plan is to follow a periodization plan similar to what Friel describes in his book. I just now starting to add L5 intervals to my schedule which is otherwise predominantly L2/L3/L4. I'll gradually add more L5 and then later some L6. I also think I will throw in at least one very long ride on last year's course at some point as well as gradually lengthen my weekend L2/l3 rides and get back out on some hard group rides.
 

bgoetz

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I pretty much do a type of periodization with SST by increasing volume and/or intensity to increase my weekly TSS followed by a rest week every 4th week. As I get closer to my key event I do focus more on VO2 and AWC, I suspect that with regards to those who race I am not alone in this regard.
 

bgoetz

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So I need a bit of direction with regards to this week. Last week was my first week back doing some SST work after the week and a half stint of L2/L3, to refocus. During that week and a half period I kept my volume at a reasonable level and intensity consistent at around 70%. So while I would say it was a mental break, I hesitate to classify it as a rest week. I was actually surprised just how fatiguing those long steady L2/L3 efforts can be over time. So upon returning to doing SST I planed to stretch my block from 3 weeks to 5 weeks before an actual rest week. I planned a hard weekend next weekend so a rest week after next fits nicely. Last week was a very positive week, backing down my SST target a bit was a big mental relief. However, I did find that by Thursday evening fatigue had set in to the point where quality work was difficult. Friday was an easy day, and Saturday I changed things up by going out in the snow on my mountain bike. PE/HR indicated I was pretty fatigued. Sunday was my typical 4hr ride that would start with a fast pace group for 45 min and then a steady clip the remainder, really just a long ride. Well with sub 20 temps it was just me and another guy, who was slower than I wanted to go. Not wanting to leave him totally behind in the cold weather I would ride ahead, turn around, ride past him and then back, in order to stay around 200 watts. At the end if the ride I had racked up 5 hours on the bike. So this week the fatigue is very apparent, to the point where going up stairs is an effort. On top of all of this I had a severe case of insomnia last night, I literally slept a total of 2hrs max (insomnia is not typical for me). I ended up just getting out of bed at 4:30 and doing my planned a.m. workout (2x20 @ 90%). Surprisingly enough the workout felt easy and was a great workout! My plan was to go home around 2, take a nap, eat dinner and then see how my p.m. 2x20 goes. The rest of my planned week is 1hr 85% tomorrow, 2x20 both a.m. and p.m. Thursday, Friday 1hr easy rollers, 5x5 and AWC Saturday, then just a shorter 2.5-3hr fast group ride Sunday. However, despite my positive result this a.m., I am no fool and can tell that there is no way I will ever be able to complete Saturday's workout if I stick with this plan and getting in some quality high end work is very important to me this week. So with that lengthy explanation, how should I consider altering my plan to allow for a positive Saturday? I want to be careful about accommodating too much because next week I planned to hold back a bit given that I have a hard long weekend planned.
 

teebone

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This is an interesting dilema that I faced fairly recently. My residual fatigue was building over the course of a 4 week period and was building to a crescendo a week prior to a scheduled "rest period". My plan was (still is) focused on SST and L4 (higher L4 as I have reached the tip of the racing sword already) volume. VO2 and higher level work is just starting in, so I do not know that our schedules can be compared straight across....but I recover better from higher end efforts than I do the longer, slower burn of consistent SST and L4.

What I did that seemed to allow me to complete that final push before the rest was taper my schedule into active recovery Thu and Fri to make the most of Sat and Sun. I prioritized those days rather than the weekdays leading into them, so I wanted to have enough residual fatigue gone to make the weekend as effective as possible.

If the weekend is your higher priority you might find an hour of L1/L2 on Thu (rather than doubling up the 2x20) will provide enough freshness to make your weekend all you need/want it to be going into your planned rest.

My personal experience is that the more fatigue I carry into the key workouts, the more likely I am to crack just before the point I feel the workout can accomplish it's objective (I know this is really subjective...but as an example, for me the last hour of a 4 hour steady state ride is where my focus and effort are really required and thus I consider that period the most critical of the whole workout).

So, if you feel that the 1 hour at 85% and AM/PM 2x20 are the most important....push through those and hang on for whatever is left over the weekend. If the weekend is more important....recover a bit and hit those hard.

My 2¢
 

bgoetz

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Teebone, your suggestion was actually my plan exactly. I was going to get some caffeine in me and try to knock out another quality 2x20 tonight, sleep finally, knock out my 1hr 85% tomorrow, some L2 on the TT bike Thursday, rollers Friday, and then try to have a quality weekend. I may actually just repeat for next week as well. This should get me through this weekend and put me in a good place to do some long hilly rides next weekend.
 

teebone

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That makes a lot of sense to me.

The thing I have had to learn over time (by lots of trial and error) is what workouts I can more afford sacrifice during a build cycle to ensure that my key workouts have the best chance at success.

For me that has meant 2x20 have to go in favor of the longer L3 or L2 weekend rides during the base and early build. At later stages of build when I do higher L4 type 2-3 x 20 I cannot sacrifice those because they are too valuable. There is a constant anaylis that has to happen for me to stay on the right side of fitness and I have to listen to my body's signals for when I am at or over the tipping point.

Good luck with your continued build!
 

bgoetz

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Another great workout! 2x20 @ 90% just felt easy today. After 10 weeks I have finally felt a real breakthrough. I think if I stick with my plan I can get some real quality on Saturday and really make good progress!
 

bgoetz

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Another great workout! 2x20 @ 90% just felt easy today. After 10 weeks I have finally felt a real breakthrough. I think if I stick with my plan I can get some real quality on Saturday and really make good progress!
 

jsirabella

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bg, Wow when aren't you on the bike? AM/PM and doing the 430am start, I thought I was the only lunatic trying to get on the bike that early. I have been there where the legs feel like lead. I commend you on that much focus.

I see you and TB loving the 2x20 @ >.9 and I have had lots of success with that but I found doing more intervals like 3x20 or 2x30 or 1x60 @>.8 to give me also quite a bit of success. Also how long are your rides total if I may ask between the 2 sessions and are both in the L3 or better range. That is quite a bit of TSS daily for a person.

bp, if you are not interested in racing and like myself want to do centuries or even commuting for me now round trip I think would be in the 40-50 or so miles range you I think the workouts you are doing are going to be great for you. I kind of felt that periodization can work with people who really have the luxury of focusing on their cycling goals more than avg joes like me. There are just too many things going on to make it all happen but that is my case. Most of the guys I know who did well at races honestly just put in the time. The one thing my first coach said which I felt was true is that you really need about 5 years of steady training to know your true potential. Most guys never go that long.

Well off to the trainer and I feel like Sucker Punch on the tube today....

-john
 

bgoetz

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Well my legs felt like trash this a.m. I canned my planed workout for some nice easy L2 and will give it another try tonight, I think I just needed a bit more recovery between workouts. Js- yes the 2 a days are hard, but it is the only way I can get my CTL to where I want. I only typically do 2 a days twice a week. I do a very moderate 10 min warmup, 10 min recovery between efforts, and 10 min cool down. So I typically end up with about an hour ten minutes for my 2x20 and a TSS between 75-80.
 

teebone

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I agree that the 2x30 and 3x20 at ~ .85IF during the base and early build are golden. 1x60 and BB HOP are tremendous as well.

When the racing gets close (I am already in the thick of the early season races that I love here in Norcal), I like to switch up L4 work to a higher IF. The key is balancing that added intensity with higher end L5-L7 work, and the races themselves. Tag to that the inevitable drop in CTL which needs to be managed (it can be so easy to let it freefall without paying attention) and scheduling workouts becomes somewhat like playing tetris.

For grins....my schedule during racing looks something like this:

M - Off
Tu - L7 mixed into tempo (or L5 work as a substitute)
W - 2x20 High L4
Th - SFR (I know the debate on efficacy of these...for me they are the golden calf) in low L4
F - Easy
Sat - Race or long ride or openers
Sun - Race or L3 or recovery if Saturday was a race

My TSS up until racing is ~110, then a drop to mid 90's during Feb - April. May and June = re-group, July - Sept is the big finish.

This approach has worked for me over the last few years, but I have to listen carefully to the warning signs and I back it off when necessary.
 

Bigpikle

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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

bp, if you are not interested in racing and like myself want to do centuries or even commuting for me now round trip I think would be in the 40-50 or so miles range you I think the workouts you are doing are going to be great for you. I kind of felt that periodization can work with people who really have the luxury of focusing on their cycling goals more than avg joes like me. There are just too many things going on to make it all happen but that is my case. Most of the guys I know who did well at races honestly just put in the time. The one thing my first coach said which I felt was true is that you really need about 5 years of steady training to know your true potential. Most guys never go that long.

Well off to the trainer and I feel like Sucker Punch on the tube today....

-john
I think you may be right about these workouts...

2 more 65km rides the last 2 days. Things are getting easier as well - up 10w AP to 238w for the 2' 15m and TSS up at 142 and 150 compared to the 135 of the earlier efforts. RPE seemed about the same though. I'm thinking a couple more weeks of these with occasional L2 rides and some threshold work will make a great block of work.