Hey Jeff, congrats on increasing your power. It's kind of cool to do an interval that used to be hard and now it's easy, isn't it? I think there is no question that a 3rd interval will result in more improvement in sustainable power than increasing power for the first two. The power increase won't be much and the lines are fuzzy anyway between levels. But, as Tyson said (he's getting to be quite the expert, isn't he?), you might want to take a day off after 3x20s. It's not that 3x20s are so many TSS points because the workout is only ~100 TSS points depending on what power you do the intervals at. It's that there's extra stress compared with what you've been doing. Again, congrats on increasing your power.jeff828 said:
RapDaddyo said:Hey Jeff, congrats on increasing your power. It's kind of cool to do an interval that used to be hard and now it's easy, isn't it? I think there is no question that a 3rd interval will result in more improvement in sustainable power than increasing power for the first two. The power increase won't be much and the lines are fuzzy anyway between levels. But, as Tyson said (he's getting to be quite the expert, isn't he?), you might want to take a day off after 3x20s. It's not that 3x20s are so many TSS points because the workout is only ~100 TSS points depending on what power you do the intervals at. It's that there's extra stress compared with what you've been doing. Again, congrats on increasing your power.
Oh, and yes your 1hr power has probably increased. Usually, when you raise your power at any duration beyond about 3 minutes you raise your entire MP/duration curve.
I do the same. Actually, your question comes at a good time as I am working on something in the form of a "workout optimizer." It's sort of a mathematical modeling approach to allocating a given amount of available workout time. When I'm done, it will answer questions such as you posed, but always within the constraint of a given workout schedule in terms of available time (e.g., I can allocate 1.5 hrs each on MWF & 3hrs each on Sat/Sun). I feel as though I need a second doctorate (in physiology), because the way the human body responds and adapts to exercise stress is so complex. But, I enjoy modeling things because it forces one to develop a very thorough understanding of the relationships and I enjoy optimization models, especially non-linear relationships. The cool thing about physiological adaptations is that they are not mutually exclusive and I think for some of them there are points of diminishing returns, both in power and duration (not negative returns, just decreasing marginal rates of return). Anyway, I'm light years away from having something working (because I'm light years away from understanding all the physiology I need to understand -- I need a brain dump from Andy).jeff828 said:
To which RD replied:
I've been attempting to do 3 straight days of intervals. (Tue,Wed, Thur) a la Palewin then Friday and Saturday rest before going out on the bike Sunday. This gives me 4 days a week training.
Whether it's advisable to take a day off after a workout is a function of the total stress of the workout. When I said that I also take a day off after some (high intensity) rides, the rides I'm talking about are ~3 hrs in duration with ~90 minutes of L4-L6 intervals in total. If I did 40 mins of L4 intervals, I wouldn't feel the need to take a day off.Sillyoldtwit said:I've been attempting to do 3 straight days of intervals. (Tue,Wed, Thur) a la Palewin then Friday and Saturday rest before going out on the bike Sunday. This gives me 4 days a week training.
If I follow Jeff and RD's advice. Then as the gym is closed on Mondays, I do intervals on Tue & Thurs (can't go out Sats) then Sunday in the mountains.
That equals 3 days a week.
Even though you couldn't do the 140w for three straight days, it sounds as though you have indeed raised your sustainable power to 140w. That's huge! No need to rush it. You'll know it's time to raise your power because it will just be too easy to do your 20 min intervals at your current power. To put it bluntly, it will be boring.Sillyoldtwit said:
I hear what you're saying RD, but perhaps 2 x40 (W140) is just as hard for me at present as your 3 hour stint. I think at the end of the day one has to play it by ear and listen to the body dictates. There's no way I could have done a quality session 3 days on the trot last week. By resting after 2 days of intervals, I think I came back stronger on the 4th day.
You will almost certainly come back feeling stronger after a day off. Sometimes when you're making the most progress you don't feel strong at all. Then, you get a little rest and it feels as though there's no chain.Sillyoldtwit said:
You may not "feel" much improvement for several weeks. Then, one day you'll surprise yourself because it will seem as though you're just flying up the hill effortlessly. It's such a cool feeling.Sillyoldtwit said:PS Didn't feel much improvement on the Sunday ride (solo).Perhaps I'm in too much of a hurry to wipe the floor with my cycling partner.
I've got a nice little 3.5 mile hill that I ride regularly. A little more than a year ago I was going up the hill at about 6-8mph. Now I'm setting my sights on 18mph. That'll be one awesome ride.
I take it that it's not pie in the sky, and you're basing the figure on what you feel you can realistically do. If you do it, that's certainly some improvement in 1 year.
A 63 year old child that is!
At the moment, I'll be happy when I reach 16mph, but I can begin to see the possibility for riding it faster, especially when I have my full arsenal of technology for pacing.Sillyoldtwit said:
Yes, it will come. Better to just let it happen rather than having expectations. The way it will happen is that one day you'll go on your Sunday ride and the hills will just appear to have "flattened." They just won't feel as hard and your bike speed will be faster. That's when you'll realize what I call "the magic." It's pretty cool.Sillyoldtwit said:Anyway you've certainly inspired me, can't wait til I'm blasting the hills. I have to take your word at the moment that it will come. I feel like a child with xmas drawing near.
RapDaddyo said:You may not "feel" much improvement for several weeks. Then, one day you'll surprise yourself because it will seem as though you're just flying up the hill effortlessly. It's such a cool feeling.
Isn't it cool?jeff828 said:Hey Rap, your right, one day it was there.
Did my first 3x20min & HR was still 10 beats lower then when I started, couldnt even do a third 20min. a month ago
I would. Personally, I like to ride my intervals at ~90% of my maximum for that duration. That's a nice compromise between going so hard that I sort of dread the interval and going so easy I feel like I'm loafing. I sort of trick myself into thinking that 90% is "a piece of cake," in spite of the fact that it is really a pretty high intensity.jeff828 said:
I think it's way more complex than that. Andy once wrote a great piece about all the physiological things that occur simultaneously as we increase intensity -- it's a long list.jeff828 said:
I agree about long durations on a trainer. Others have said that they adapt after awhile, but I have not ridden a trainer week after week for a long time. I find it hard to ride intervals at the same power, but I think it's mostly mental (and partially ventilation).jeff828 said:
If the resistance factors are the same (weight, frontal area, rolling resistance, etc.), the power is the same for the fit rider and the untrained rider. In fact, I think even untrained riders can ride at LA's 40K TT power (~450w), they just can't ride at that power for an hour.jeff828 said:Rap I have one more question/scenario if you dont mind. This relates to the amount of power applied to the rear wheel between a sedatary person who never rode or exercices & a fit rider like yourself.
If you take both people and ride side by side in the same gear at the same speed 25mph, will the wattage output be the same?
I think the unfit guy will produce more wattage since he will have to push harder on the pedals to maintain 25mph than you would, since the PT measures the amount of force being applied to the rear wheel, is my thinking right or wrong?
Thanks again
Comparison with others can be pretty depressing. When I look at the power that the top pros can sustain for an hour, I get depressed. I think a more healthy way to look at it is to develop an appreciation for the process and to celebrate your own personal progress. I still marvel at the body's ability to adapt and to develop increased capacity to sustain higher levels of intensity for a given duration. As to the accuracy of the watts readings of the bike at your health club, it doesn't really matter whether it is accurate. It only matters that it is consistent from session to session (i.e., 140w on Wed requires the same intensity as 140w on Tues). It would be nice if it is linear (i.e., 165w is 10% higher intensity than 150w), but even that is not absolutely necessary and many trainers are not linear. The procedure for figuring out what power to ride your intervals at is the same whether the readings are accurate or not -- the procedure I use is to find my max power at a given duration (by trial and error) and then ride my intervals at 90% of that number. You can also cross-check your intensity with your HR.Sillyoldtwit said:
Some of us go for months without formally testing our FT. What's more important is that you are riding your intervals at a power level that will result in the desired adaptation and even that is a fairly wide band. And, you can figure out those power levels in a whole bunch of ways such as my 90%MP rule above. As to your 2 or 3 days in succession question, I don't think it matters much if at all. I think what matters most is that at the end of the week when you tally up your minutes at L4, what is the total? It sounds to me as though you are doing ~120 mins/wk at L4. Let's look at two extremes for distributing those 120 mins: (1) 3 x 20s on two days with a rest day between; and (2) 17 mins/day every day. I'm not sure there would be any difference in the physiological benefits associated with those two workout plans. 120 L4 mins is 120 L4 mins.Sillyoldtwit said:
It's too early to say. Let's see what you say about the feasibility of that target along about mid-April.Sillyoldtwit said:I'll probably look back at these posts in a couple of months or more and say "Did I say that?" I hope so anyway as I grind away at 2 x 20 (200W). 15th of May BTW RD maybe a little ambitious to achieve said target.
Looking forward to getting back to the road after a *long* winter on the trainer. On a couple occasions where I've been out on group rides this winter, I later discovered that I'd 'accidentally' busted my mean max power curve by a significant margin.RapDaddyo said:
Cool. I predict you'll be able to do everything you've been doing on the trainer up to the durations you have been riding your intervals at. But, you might want to watch out for two things. One is the surges. I think that initially they take more out of you than they do later. IOW, initially a highly stochastic NP=x is harder than a steady NP=x. Second, be cautious about estimating your power in the second half of the race. You may find that your power is good but your endurance is only so-so.frenchyge said:Looking forward to getting back to the road after a *long* winter on the trainer. On a couple occasions where I've been out on group rides this winter, I later discovered that I'd 'accidentally' busted my mean max power curve by a significant margin.
I feel like I've been putting change into a jar all winter, and the time when I finally get to break it open and see how much is really in there is getting close. First race of the season is in ~1.5 weeks.
