Kirk Trainer competition



Ah, just like I said.
10 minute time trial to test fitness level.
424 watts average
So, maybe a month from peak fitness level.
I did some weights two days ago and need a little more time to fully recover.
Next week I may try a four minute time trial.

Anyone else use the Kinetic? anyone try TrainerRoad workouts?
 
Finally found someone to help push me.

His workout was 4 min X 6 at: 358/348/351/342/341/347 avg = 348
I tried the same workout at: 367/375/379/388/400/425 avg = 389
I kept it steady with some extra in the tank for the last set.
Without this, I would have done 4 x 4 or 4x 5. So thanks.

I'll get this over 400 next time. 408 would be 5%.
There's my goal for next month's attempt.
Again, it not the comparison.
I'm betting he maybe pushed harder than I did.
At my level, I should have hit 400.
Next time, I'm starting at around 380 or so.

I hear there's a new website starting soon to do exactly this.
But will I have to reveal my true weight?
 
TShame, if you do a search on the Power Forums for "Kurt Kinetic", you'll find a number of threads dealing with the issues of getting accurate, repeatable and consistent power numbers. One good one from 2007 attempted to "calibrate" the trainers, included a graph of the temperature instability. Roll-down tension setting, tires, slippage were also discussed, as well as other reliability problems with the power meter feature.
 
yeah, their unit would probably read 500 watts when I'm doing 400.
I only use their unit for speed, which is fairly good.
The best thing about the kinetic is its accuracy in the power curve.
Whereas a magnetic does not hardly curve at all, making sprints a breeze.
The Kinetic company says their units can be off by about 30 watts.
Their power curve is also on a 1% grade, so it takes a lot of power to tame it.

Don't be surprised at how much power us trackies have.
The thing is my hour power is reduced, only about 380.
But I've ridden with sprinters whose pursuit times are my basic warm-up.
Its all about what your body is built for, then enhancing that to the max with training.

Note: I have a tough challenge a 3 x 12, a gutsy workout.
 
dhk2 said:
TShame, if you do a search on the Power Forums for "Kurt Kinetic", you'll find a number of threads dealing with the issues of getting accurate, repeatable and consistent power numbers.  One good one from 2007 attempted to "calibrate" the trainers, included a graph of the temperature instability.   Roll-down tension setting, tires, slippage were also discussed, as well as other reliability problems with the power meter feature.   
After my previous posts and reading yours I did lots of research. It seems anyone and everyone who has put a powermeter on a KK trainer has found the same result 10-20% lower readings on their powermeter. That is significant.
 
Good workout today.
Tried to see how long I could hold my goal of 400 today.
Couldn't make 20 minutes yet, but held 396 for 12 minutes.
Instead of another 12 at that pace, I ripped a 2 minute run measured at 507.
This is where I need my 3 minute time to be.


(As to watts, my tires and rolling resistance do differ. So that can save me 5 watts, which is about a 1% margin of error. Speed is the variable, not watts. What you put on the pedals is force, measured in watts. This is what good power meters do. Speed sensors don't measure watts, just speed. That's why I keep track of my wattage.)
 
Oh boy, REAL power meters use force and velocity to measure watts. Your KK TRAINER ESTIMATES power based on speed. Your trainer in NOT a power meter, useful tool yes power meter no. I really hate to burst your KK trainer induced bubble, but I can find numerous threads that indicate a pretty significant difference in power indicated by these trainers and REAL power meters. Do not get me wrong these things are great when used for what they are, a useful tool. The problem is when a "tool" attempts to use such a divice and starts claiming them as real numbers.
 
Originally Posted by TShame .

This is what good power meters do. Speed sensors don't measure watts, just speed. That's why I keep track of my wattage.

You seem confused somehow. Powertap, SRM and top sports labs measure watts accurately.
You are referring to a KK" speed sensor.", which at their scale would put my wattage much higher.
I've been doing these levels for years, and lab-tested many times, including painful hours, pursuits and kilos.
My kilo isn't what it use to be, which is why I'm working on pursuit more than 1 minute bursts.

I don't see your numbers. (magnetic units don't really count. They all flatline in sprints.)
I work way too hard to bother lying about it.
Don't expect that you can do what I can.
 
TShame said:
Good workout today. Tried to see how long I could hold my goal of 400 today. Couldn't make 20 minutes yet, but held 396 for 12 minutes. Instead of another 12 at that pace, I ripped a 2 minute run measured at 507. This is where I need my 3 minute time to be. (As to watts, my tires and rolling resistance do differ. So that can save me 5 watts, which is about a 1% margin of error. Speed is the variable, not watts. What you put on the pedals is force, measured in watts. This is what good power meters do. Speed sensors don't measure watts, just speed. That's why I keep track of my wattage.)  
Force measured as watts? That's a new one. So how does that unit know if you're applying 50N of force and traveling 10m/s or 100N at 5m/s? It doesn't as both are done at 500W output. I'm guessing that since you said, "Don't expect that you can do what I do" and have gone on about being lab tested and other such things and since you started this post asking if others wanted to post their Kirk trainer performance numbers.....well I'm guessing that you just came by to brag. Awesome. You are truly impressive to yourself.
 
I am confused. You posted up wanting to have a KK trainer "competition", naturally I think that one must be using a KK Trainer. When asked what it is based on you provide some very high power #s, again I assume from a KK Trainer since it is a thread about a KK trainer competition. Despite no one taking the bate you continue to post #s again I assume from a KK Trainer. When it is pointed out that KK trainers, all using any type of power curve are significantly higher than real life #s you get defensive and almost indicate that you are using a real power meter. Are the above #s from a KK Trainer or from a true power meter? If they are a true power meter then anyone can join your contest. Better yet you can post actual files as PROOF of your achievements. As to if I can do what you do, we will never know, I don't have a KK trainer, but based on my research and a sophisticated conversion factor, my 5 minute # is 500-540 watts, my 10 minute 425-460 watts, and 20 minute a lowly 400-430 watts. So there you go, that is what you have to match/beat. The thing is I don't give 2 ***** about #s, I get results. Which is what I care about. I kinda wonder if the #s from your trainer are all you have.
 
Wow, I didn't realize this thread would irritate anyone.
Funny how none of them were actual responses.
If you want to challenge yourself, then welcome aboard.

It sounds like a few people I've beaten.
"Oh, uh, I could of beat you...but I, uh, (insert lame excuse here)"

I don't care if you can do 200 or 300 watts. Just so you improve.
I may not get my LT to 400 or my WMax to 500.
But, I'm working harder than Lance without his sweet stuff.
 
I stepped up, you have my #s. If you want to do it with REAL power meters post up a REAL file. And #s aside you have not beat **** until you have beaten someone in an actual race.
 
You could also provide some race results, they should be easy enough to verify. If we know your weight, I am sure someone on here could use that and come up with an estimation of your power.
 
Originally Posted by TShame .

Wow, I didn't realize this thread would irritate anyone.
Funny how none of them were actual responses.
If you want to challenge yourself, then welcome aboard.

It sounds like a few people I've beaten.
"Oh, uh, I could of beat you...but I, uh, (insert lame excuse here)"

I don't care if you can do 200 or 300 watts. Just so you improve.
I may not get my LT to 400 or my WMax to 500.
But, I'm working harder than Lance without his sweet stuff.
TShame, forgive the skepticism, but those of us who've been around the forum for a few years have seen people brag about results obtained on home trainers. I've got a couple of those, an old Blackburn Wind Trainer (with the squirrel-cage fan), and a newer mag-trainer from Performance with the adjustment lever on the side.

The wind trainer is actually a good load unit, since it doesn't heat up and has a realistic power curve, but of course it's noisy. And the issue of roller tension and tire slippage is always there. I used it a lot over winters in the 90's, but just looked at my rear wheel speed and HR, never tried to figure wattage output from it. Still, got some good quality training on it; that's all that matters in the end.

Now I use the Cybex trainers at the YMCA. Those are quality units, with magnetic loads generated on heavy iron flywheels. The calibration seems perfect across the 3 units they have, ie, can't tell which one I'm riding as the watts read all the same. They had Lifecycle units before these. I remember being disappointed when my output suddenly dropped about 20 "watts" on the new machines. Either the old Lifecycles were optimistic, the Cybex reads low, or a little of both. If the machines are calibrated to within 5% of true "watts", eg, +/_ 10 watts, that's probably about as close as it gets until you get into lab-quality calibrated machines.

I'll put up my numbers today from my training session at the Y. According to the Cybex display, I rode @ 165-175 watts for a 20 minute interval. Was using load level #10, at a cadence of ~88 rpm. The display indicated 20 mph, more or less, and my HR leveled out at 90% of max, or 162 bpm. Was a good training effort for me, no leg pain, but could feel my breathing during the last 5 minutes.

Not sure what all that data tells anyone about me. Since you likely have a lot more power than I do, regardless of the inaccuracies of your home trainer, your data isn't particularly motivating to me. It's not really important what the numbers readout on our machines, as long as we're improving.
 
Thanks for reading.
I have said several times, just as you posted "as long as we're improving."
I applaud your efforts and hope you can find some challenges that push you to improve.
Isn't that why you're here in the first place?
You are definitely right about 99% of trainers.
Most 'gym' equipment is 'sized up' to make people feel better.
Getting a power meter is a huge downer for all of us.
I use to have a double trainer set-up and it still wasn't enough.
(two trainers..one bottom and one on top of the wheel)

My Velodyne had more accuracy than most computer labs.
It's taken me about two years to get my numbers to where I was previously.
Last year was very warm and I didn't ride much indoor sessions.
The Velodyne had a pursuit mode with lap times and a 'velodrome' visual.
I still miss that.

There will always be naysayers because its the internet.
I can't worry about one person who doesn't believe simply because my numbers are higher than his.
I also spoke to a famous director, I met Chris Boardman. I sat at a pub drinking with the Brits like Hoy and Pendleton.
I raced a handicap race with a world-champion rider (female) in training
I had to ride on the outside lane the entire time (such a blast)
I applied for an hour attempt in Switzerland. I have a sponsors front disc wheel, which is wall art now.
And only my wife knows its a fact.

Yesterday I did a 4 minute drill for my test.
It was an all-out affair that left me completely spent.
This is not just a 'hard' ride. Its a 4 minute sprint for the line.
There is a panic at 1:30 that there is no way I can hold the pace for even three minutes but
that just spurs me on further. The last pedal strokes are pure will-power.
End result 464 watts.
 
This thread is certainly unique because most of us (based on what I perceive from a lot of the usual contributors) lean more into endurance cycling and not a couple laps around the track.

A Kurt trainer competition that holds to your guidelines is very unique, which has a limited audience here on this board. One would think that this thread may have more interest on a forum with a multitude of track competitors or similar type of training and competition goals. Personally, and no offense, I am really not that impressed by someone stating what they can do for 4 minutes only because I care more what a person can do over the span of 100+ miles (hilly, flat or mountains) and that is because that is where my interest is - endurance cycling. I believe it is the case with many regular forum members.

1. The Kurt trainer - Not everyone has one. (I have one, but could careless about a short effort. It is disruptive to my typical daily goal of sustained power for 20+ minutes)
2. The time is limited to a short effort. (Many here that train with power often train with sub-maximal sustained power output for a longer period of time)
3. The intensity is high. (Many would find this to have a negative impact to their daily training goals in the early part of the season or off season)
4. As others have stated how can this even be an official competition without using data from a calibrated power meter? (maybe AOG could push you because he always claims big numbers without proof of data)
5. Most on this thread and the power thread would be more interested in a competition for 60 minutes, but even at that most of us stick to our daily training goals. Guys like bgoetz are doing their talking racing Pro / 1 / 2 category and even with power data the real message is how they cross the finish line. They may do higher intensity training, but many will not start those effort for a few more months.

I am not trying to be offensive, just stating that most on this board don't really fit into this competition request.
Best wishes with your training though and I hope you continue to do well at the track.
 
TShame said:
There will always be naysayers because its the internet. I can't worry about one person who doesn't believe simply because my numbers are higher than his.  
I am simply asking how you arrived at your #s that you are posting? So far I have seen you post KK Trainer, Velodyne, lab, and some website that converts speed curves on trainers. You are the one who wanted to have a "contest", people who wish to participate deserve to know how the person they are competing with arrives at their #s, especially when they are very high #s. Call it skeptisim call it what you want, but you opened yourself up to this by starting this thread, so don't make me out to be the bad guy. And as I stated before, I could give two ***** if you make more power than me, hell tons of others do and I manage just fine. I just don't think the #s you are claiming are correct.
 
What?! A 'mine is bigger than yours' contest?! Thought those only occurred in locker rooms.
Oops, my mistake - forgot this was an internet forum. Carry on...
 
^^^the problem is IDK what we are even comparing, at least in the locker room I know, lol.
 
If you had reading comprehension you would see it is talking about personal improvement.
The biggest laugh was someone saying that he has huge wattage, not from actual readings but by "research and conversion".


Anyway, I was sore and had to scale down a bit.
Did some work at goal pace.
Tried a kilo, which is improving a little, but still low.
I won't worry about that until much later as my focus is ten mile distance right now.

PS If you are not interested in this thread, why post a bunch of teenage-troll-retorts?