Looking forward to 2004

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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The old Celtic divisions of the year were probaly the source of the midsummer convention. They had
four major divisions in the year that occurred between the modern four divisions. Beltane marked
the beginning of the light half of the year (April 30 - May 1) and was effectively the beginning of
summer. Samhain marked the beginning of the dark half of the year, i.e. winter (Oct 31 - Nov 1).
The dates are only rough since they used a lunar calendar, not a solar one.

You're good on Calendars :-) or should that be ;-^
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Pierre Lavaurs <[email hidden]> writes

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Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

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The convention can't be 'incorrect' - usage rules OK.

Not if it's logically impossible. You cannot say that summer starts on midsummers day and yet
lasts 3 months.

Hang on boys, you're assuming all four seasons are the same length! I'm not sure that this is
the case.

Indeed this is not ! Quoting from a recent entry in www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/weblog/

"the northern hemisphere has a definite advantage for those who like summer better, namely that it
is longer. Specifically, in the northen hemisphere, the mean duration of seasons for the J2000
epoch is:

Spring 92.758 days Summer 93.649 days Autumn 89.842 days Winter 88.993 days

(And, of course, summer in the southern hemisphere lasts as long as winter in the northern,
and so on.)

This inequality is due to the ellipticity of the Earth's orbit: perihelion (the point where the
Earth is closest to the Sun) is reached in the early days of january (next passage of the Earth at
perihelion is around 2004-01-04T01:05Z) and this is the point where (by Kepler's law of areas) its
angular velocity around the Sun is greatest."

OK I accept that correction. But the quotation strongly implies that this official definition has
the seasons placed symmetrically around the equinox/solstice points; not starting on the
equinox/solstice points.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

Fran <[email hidden]> wrote

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Hang on boys, you're assuming all four seasons are the same length! I'm not sure that this is the
case. Also, given the weather we get sometimes (well OK, most of the time) I'm less than convinced
that 'logic' gets a look-in :-)

You can't tie the seasons to firm dates, this argument is silly.

It is Spring when the buds begin to open

It is summer when most flowers are in bloom, and the leaves are fully open on the trees.

Autumn is when the leaves change colour and fall.

Winter is when all the leaves have fallen, there are frosts which last, and/or snow at the
lower levels.
--
Gordon

In article <[email hidden]>, Bootlaces <[email hidden]> writes

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In [email hidden] Bernard Hill mused:

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OK I accept that correction. But the quotation strongly implies that this official definition has
the seasons

First define your definition of 'season'...

One of "Summer", "Autumn", "Spring", "Winter".

What's your point?

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

[email hidden]> writes

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In article <[email hidden]>, Bernard Hill <[email hidden]> writes

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In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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There's no 'correct' or 'incorrect' about it: these are the conventions. Summer conventionally
begins on midsummer's day. Weird, isn't it? The convention can't be 'incorrect' - usage rules OK.

Not if it's logically impossible. You cannot say that summer starts on midsummers day and yet
lasts 3 months.

"Summer" is a period of time which means something actual, not metaphorical. So it has a beginning
and an end and a middle day.

Usage which is logically wrong is bad usage and must be corrected.

Quite right - stop calling the first day of summer midsummer day.

Ah! Now I could live with that if you define summer as solstice to equinox. You'd have also to stop
using the terms midwinter's day and midwinter's night of course.

But midsummer's day is a term more well established than "first day of summer". Unfortunately "first
day of spring" is also well established and clashes with "Midsummer's day".

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

Not if it's logically impossible. You cannot say that summer starts on midsummers day and yet
lasts 3 months.

We can and we do, and it does! It's not logically impossible at all. You mistake the meaning of the
term 'midsummer's day'. It doesn't mean the day in the middle of summer - which your theory depends
on. Look it up. Similarly, Misummer Day (a different day) doesn't mean that either.

The change from 21 to 24 makes no difference to my point. Would you have summer last 1 week only
from 21st to 27th (since 24th is the middle and 21st is the start?)

The Shorter Oxford tells me that "midsummer" is an adjective which means "the period around the
middle of summer, specifically around the solstice".

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"Summer" is a period of time which means something actual, not metaphorical. So it has a beginning
and an end and a middle day.

Usage which is logically wrong is bad usage and must be corrected.

Logic doesn't come into it.

What a strange thing to say. Logic comes into everything.

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It's the same as saying "let's push the meeting date backwards" when you mean move it forwards in
time. Such usage should be discouraged.

Backwards and forwards are metaphors where time is concerned; their use is determined by
convention, not logic.

And the convention is that time moves forwards. So moving a future date backwards means making it
nearer to us. Logic!

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Don't accept what everyone else says - look it up!

I just did, see above.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Stuart <[email hidden]> writes

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"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Paul Rooney said:

Because that's not the convention. The convention is that the seasons begin on 21 March, June,
Sept and Dec. These relate approximately to climate/weather conditions.

The dates are those of the Equinoxes and Solstices (Septmeber one is 22nd rather than 21st IIRC)

sometimes even the 23rd what does IIRC stand for?

If I remember correctly. It's a fairly standard internet contraction.

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rather than necessarily tuned to climate/weather.

The Scottish mountains are famed for the ability to go through all 4 seasons on the same day!

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The change points between lengthening or shortening days are on similar days (solstices and
equinoxes are closest and furthest approaches to the Sun as Earth's orbit is an ellipse, daylight
is related to the earth's tilt in relation to the sun).

As far as I can tell the shortest and longest days do in fact fall on the solstices, however there
is a semi interesting anomilty due to the elliptical route the earth takes round the sun. the
darkest morning (latest sun rise) occurs on about the 14th Dec and the darkest evening (earliest
sun set) on about the 28th.

Anyway to get this thread back on subject, I hope I am right over the dates of the seasons, as
these are the dates I am using, in attempting to do all Munros in all seasons!

90 / 284 Winter
188 / 284 Spring
156 / 284 Summer
64 / 284 Autumn

16 all seasons 37 never

2428 miles 962,317' ascent

Oh dear. Someone for whom this is not an abstract pub argument but actually matters!

What definition ARE you using?

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Peter Clinch said:

Paul Rooney said:

Because that's not the convention. The convention is that the seasons begin on 21 March, June,
Sept and Dec. These relate approximately to climate/weather conditions.

The dates are those of the Equinoxes and Solstices (Septmeber one is 22nd rather than 21st IIRC)
rather than necessarily tuned to climate/weather.

Absolutely. The others can be 22nd too, but tradition has it that the seasons change on the 21st.

I've never heard this except with the colloquial and inaccurate "first day of spring". They change
6+ weeks earlier.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

I have never heard that ever. "The 1st day of spring" is the only one I have heard, in reference
to the vernal equinox, which is of course the middle day of spring.

Since posting here you've also heard of the first days of winter and summer too! You can't make
your own convention - conventions don't work like that!

You must distinguish between the phrase "first-day-of-winter" and the collection of words
"first", "day", "of", "winter" which have been posted here consecutively to mean the term "first
day of winter". I've never heard of the first term, but _have_ here seen posted this second
collection of words.

For conventions, see "midsummer" in the SOED. It says it means "the middle of summer, specifically
the period around the solstice".

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

Ah! Now I could live with that if you define summer as solstice to equinox.

That's exactly how they are now defined.

By whom? The SOED differs, as my other quotes indicate.

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You'd have also to stop using the terms midwinter's day and midwinter's night of course.

I've never called them that.

It's a term my mother used to use. Perhaps she made it up, but it's in my past.

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But midsummer's day is a term more well established than "first day of summer".

Established by the ancient Celtic divisions of the year. Read my other posts.

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Unfortunately "first day of spring" is also well established

Established by the "new" astronomical definitions, therefore not so well established.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Paul Saunders said:

Read more about it here. sacredfire.netfestivals.htmlOpen ↗

The old traditions have been usurped by the modern conventions of precise astronomical
definitions, but the name midsummer has lingered on.

Paul

Seems reasonable to me.

But *no-one* would describe September as part of summer! It's clearly autumn when the leaves
are falling!

Conversely June is clearly summertime... not Spring!

Your definition is *not* reasonable.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:39:03 +0000, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Paul Rooney wrote:
>
>> Because that's not the convention. The convention is that the seasons begin on 21 March, June,
>> Sept and Dec. These relate approximately to climate/weather conditions.
>
>The dates are those of the Equinoxes and Solstices (Septmeber one is 22nd rather than 21st IIRC)
>rather than necessarily tuned to climate/weather.

Absolutely. The others can be 22nd too, but tradition has it that the seasons change on the 21st.

I've never heard this except with the colloquial and inaccurate "first day of spring". They change
6+ weeks earlier.

Look it up!

I did. See my comments about the SOED on "midsummer".

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

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Absolutely. The others can be 22nd too, but tradition has it that the seasons change on
the 21st.

I've never heard this

I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Didn't you ever go to school Bernard?

Yes, but in a part of England which has always fiercely defended its independence.

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If you did, what on earth were they teaching you?

Actually nothing about the seasons' start, as far as I remember. Which IS what we are talking about.

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This seems like a Christmas troll to me.

Who, me?

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except with the colloquial and inaccurate "first day of spring". They change 6+ weeks earlier.

It's not colloquial and inaccurate. It's the modern definition and you must surely be
aware of that.

Er, why are you saying that "first day of spring" is not colloquial?

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I don't object to you disagreeing with the modern definition, but I'm baffled by your insistence
that you aren't aware of it or that it's just a matter of opinion. It's official and well-
established. I can't believe that you don't know that.

It's well established, yes. I said that. I said "colloquial". But hardly official when it's not even
in my Technical Dictionary, and the SOED [the biggest dictionary I own] differs anyway.

There are 3 terms in the year which have these names:

First day of Spring Midsummer's Day Midwinter's Day [or according to my mother, it was
midwinter's night]

I've never heard of mid-autumn day, or "the first day of winter" or "the first day of summer" etc.

So one of these 3 is out of step.

In fact the longest day being midsummer day makes a great deal of sense. So it's the Spring quote
which goes out, as far as I am concerned.

As I said earlier, this also coincides with the common notions of the seasons too ... mid-May and
June being summer, September being autumn [or if good weather, it's an "Indian summer"], the end of
August being "back end" November being winter

and so on.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

For conventions, see "midsummer" in the SOED. It says it means "the middle of summer, specifically
the period around the solstice".

That's only one of the definitions. There are others. It's one of those vagaries of English that we
all have to live with.

Ah, you mean like "first day of spring"?

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Bootlaces <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill mused:

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Bootlaces writes

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Bernard Hill mused:

> OK I accept that correction. But the quotation strongly implies that this official definition
> has the seasons

First define your definition of 'season'...

One of "Summer", "Autumn", "Spring", "Winter".

What's your point?

I'm trying understand *your* point.

To me, seasons are nature, and therefore nature and what nature 'does' defines the seasons. Sort of
like what Phil posted somewhere further up-thread ^

That's fine. But man comes along and says "spring starts on March 21st". Sort of spoils it, eh?

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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Reid said:

Following up to Phil Cook

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I'll jump in here and send my greeting to all.

p-t-cook.freeserve.co.ukchristmas2003a.jpgOpen ↗

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me too (having wasted half an hour playing with photoshop, the programme that can do anything in
10 seconds once you spend an hour finding out how!) fellwalk.co.ukwmd.htmOpen ↗

Well since we're all at it, here's my season's greets to hill walkers everywhere,
especially Bernard.

wildwales.fsnet.co.uksolstice.jpgOpen ↗

Thanks Paul!

Amazing how the clouds focus in on the trig point!

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

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Bernard Hill said:

That's fine. But man comes along and says "spring starts on March 21st". Sort of spoils it, eh?

I think what happened was this;

1. Once upon a time, our ancestors in this part of the world (Celts?) observed regular changes in
weather and vegetation over time, and thus invented the concept of seasons. This was a faily
local concept, limited to western central Europe. Thus they invented a calendar (primarily moon
based) that followed the seasons reasonably accurately.

2. The world got bigger and it was discovered that weather, vegetation, climate etc. were wildly
different all over the world and the simple seasonal system that worked so well locally made no
sense worldwide.

3. Astronomers came along and defined the seasons to precisely fit the equinoxes and solstices all
over the world, totally irrespective of weather and vegetation. The the seasons were
standardised for worldwide use, but they no longer match weather and vegetation cycles any
more, although they come fairly close in some places in the world.

This supports my view that the seasons can only be defined by weather and plant growth. Of course,
the equipment carried by the serious walker can also be an indicator....

They don't have Spring/Summer/Autumn/Winter where my son lives in Australia, they have a dry season
and a wet season.

Arguing about precise dates is bollocks. :-)
--
Gordon

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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Bernard Hill said:

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Didn't you ever go to school Bernard?

Yes, but in a part of England which has always fiercely defended its independence.

What does that mean? That it's okay not to teach modern facts?

It means that the teaching does not have to conform to the rubbish taught outwith.

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If you did, what on earth were they teaching you?

Actually nothing about the seasons' start, as far as I remember.

Well I remember learning about that in school. It's very basic stuff.

Hardly! The divergence of opinions here would indicate that!

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It's not colloquial and inaccurate. It's the modern definition and you must surely be aware
of that.

Er, why are you saying that "first day of spring" is not colloquial?

It's the modern definition. It's astronomical.

It's colloquial, which means it's in general use. Whatever else it might be.

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It's well established, yes. I said that. I said "colloquial". But hardly official when it's not
even in my Technical Dictionary, and the SOED [the biggest dictionary I own] differs anyway.

Just because something isn't in a dictionary doesn't mean it's not official. There are lots of
official things that aren't in dictionaries. Dictionaries are designed to explain the meanings of
specific words, not more complex subject matter. I'd suggest that an encylopedia is more suited to
an explanation of the definition of the seasons.

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There are 3 terms in the year which have these names:

First day of Spring Midsummer's Day Midwinter's Day [or according to my mother, it was
midwinter's night]

I've never heard of mid-autumn day, or "the first day of winter" or "the first day of
summer" etc.

So one of these 3 is out of step.

Bernard, have you clicked on the link I gave?

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Certainly. It would have been impolite not to do so.

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If not, please do, then report back. I am actually agreeing with you re the original definition of
the term midsummer. The reason that those three examples are out of step is because the old
definitions clash with the new, yet you've made no reference to the old definitions.

You made the reference for me, is what I thought.

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sacredfire.netfestivals.htmlOpen ↗

If and when you finally acknowledge the old definitions then the reasons for these discrepancies
will be clear.

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In fact the longest day being midsummer day makes a great deal of sense.

According to the old definitions yes. But the new definitions also make sense with regard to the
temperature delay, August is the hottest month of the year, not June, and February is the coldest
month, not December. So both systems have their merit.

I would agree there. But colloquially "Summer" is a variable feast anyway.

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So it's the Spring quote which goes out, as far as I am concerned.

Unfortunately that clashes with the modern definitions. I'm sure you'd be much happier living
amongst the ancient Celts. ;-)

Maybe I do... it's a very insular society here you know in the Scottish Borders :-)

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As I said earlier, this also coincides with the common notions of the seasons too ... mid-May and
June being summer,

I've never heard of May being summer, but I agree that it's often hot enough to qualify.

In Scotland May is often the best month of the year (lowest rainfall). I can't remember where, but I
got that from official sources.

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September being autumn [or if good weather, it's an "Indian summer"],

No, just summer. The first hint of autumn maybe, but not proper autumn.

The grass is going golden brown, the greens are going. Autumn!

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the end of August being "back end"

August always "feels" like the middle of summer to me. I hate the heat

me too

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and August gets most of my yearly heat hatred.

Agreed.

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November being winter

Rubbish! November is clearly autumn. There were still plenty of leaves on the trees this November,
and there are always some left.

There are leaves on many trees today as I look out, but by all calendar definitions it's Winter.

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The autumn colours typically peak around the last week of October so there's still plenty of
autumn left in November. Still walking around in freshly fallen leaves.

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and so on.

So when's winter going to start? Still no sign of it down here.

!! We had temperatures of -10 a couple of weeks ago.

However my point has always been that it's not the temperature which dictates the seasons but the
LIGHT. It's so dark here at Christmas, and in midsummer you can see to read outside pretty much
all night.

Maybe this is our problem... in Scotland the light difference is substantial. There are really only
6 hours a day of daylight, approx.
9:00-15:00 at this time of year. And with a strongly overcast day it gets really miserable for light
- I have lights on in my (2 large windows. South and East facing) office all day long.

So a day-length season makes much more sense in Scotland as a concept than a temperature one.

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Bootlaces <[email hidden]> writes

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Paul Saunders mused:

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This seems like a Christmas troll to me.

Late runner for 'longest thread' ?

Could be the holiday season, the attempt not to do any work while at the computer...

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

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Roger Chapman said:

It also has Indian Summer as: "period of dry calm hazy weather in late autumn in northern US and
elsewhere..."

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Bernard. Hot weather in September isn't an Indian Summer. An
Indian Summer comes much later, after the first frosts.

Exactly. First frosts sometime in October - late autumn.

Using the 21/9 to 21/12 definition a late autumn (as above) would be December!

I reckon late autumn is late October - Indian summer!

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland