Making Campagnolo 9/10 Speed Rear Hub/Cassette Compatible with Dura-Ace 7 Speed

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Rosco, Mar 18, 2004.

  1. Rosco

    Rosco Guest

    In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily
    take parts off an old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed)
    and move them to a new one for a while. The eventual goal
    is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed (when
    funds allow), and return the old parts back to their
    original bike.

    The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
    compatibility. My current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic
    cartridge sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed freewheel. The
    new frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold setting the
    rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
    approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that
    converting that hub to 130mm spacing would be fairly
    expensive and difficult. Since my longer term goal is to go
    Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
    Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be
    made to work with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and
    naturally be used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big
    switch latter on.

    It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert
    from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking
    at some reference tables on Sheldon Brown's website
    (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
    Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
    center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm). If this is
    correct, it seems natural to do this conversion, but only
    use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain on the cassette. Do I
    have this right? I've also seen a seller of this kit suggest
    it could also be used to convert from Campagnolo 10 speed to
    Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension)
    since the cog width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the
    same. Starting from 10 speed has the advantage that I
    eventually end up with the cassette I want after doing the
    total Campagnolo conversion latter on.

    It appears like you'd want to start with a Veloce 10 speed
    cassette. The most natural one to choose is the:

    13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26. My existing 7 speed freewheel
    is: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21----24. So to create something
    similar, I could use the following: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21-23-
    26, from the Veloce, but not actually have the deraileur
    engage the 26.

    Am I think about this in the right way? Also in doing the
    conversion, can you eliminate any 2 of the existing
    sprockets or are there restrictions such as being required
    to use the existing smallest sprocket?

    Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10
    speed chain?
     
    Tags:


  2. rosco wrote:

    > In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily
    > take parts off an old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed)
    > and move them to a new one for a while. The eventual goal
    > is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed (when
    > funds allow), and return the old parts back to their
    > original bike.
    >
    > The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
    > compatibility. My current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced
    > Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed
    > freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials, so
    > cold setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if
    > it was, that approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead
    > to believe that converting that hub to 130mm spacing would
    > be fairly expensive and difficult.

    Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
    be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
    indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.

    > Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I
    > don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear wheel
    > in the short term as long as it can be made to work with
    > my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a
    > 10 speed setup when I make the big switch latter on.

    I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could be made to index OK
    with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a 7-speed setup...might
    make a useful intermediate option.

    > It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert
    > from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From
    > looking at some reference tables on Sheldon Brown's
    > website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
    > that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly
    > the same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

    That's correct.

    > If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
    > conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain
    > on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also seen a
    > seller of this kit suggest it could also be used to
    > convert from Campagnolo 10 speed to Campagnolo 8 speed
    > (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension) since the cog width
    > of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same. Starting from
    > 10 speed has the advantage that I eventually end up with
    > the cassette I want after doing the total Campagnolo
    > conversion latter on.
    >

    Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99% sure
    they fit on the newer hubs.

    > Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10
    > speed chain?

    Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram
    PC58 for this application.

    Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown +----------------------------------------------------------
    -----------+
    | It is amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being
    | too tired. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------
    ----------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-
    find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
    http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:51:41 GMT, "rosco"
    <reverse-the-following"ocsor_g"@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can
    >be made to work with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and
    >naturally be used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big
    >switch latter on.

    My memory is not so great but I think that is you use Campy
    10 shifters and a Shimano rear derailleur you will shift
    the 7sp ok.
     
  4. Rosco

    Rosco Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > rosco wrote:

    > >
    > > The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
    > > compatibility.
    My
    > > current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge
    > > sealed bearing hub
    with
    > > a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable
    > > materials, so cold setting the rear really isn't an
    > > option (an even if it was, that
    approach
    > > doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that
    > > converting that hub
    to
    > > 130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult.

    > Sheldon Replied: Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end
    > of the axle would be a quick and dirty solution. You'd
    > need to re-adjust the indexing on your derailer, but it
    > should work just fine.

    That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
    protrusion of about
    4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
    the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual locknut
    equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed bearing setup
    is designed to grip onto the dropout when the skewer is
    tensioned. Are there any safety concerns with only a 2.75
    mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm washers wouldn't
    be grippy against the dropout in the same sense?

    > > Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed,
    > > I don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear
    > > wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to
    work
    > > with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be
    > > used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big switch
    > > latter on.
    >

    > Sheldon Replied: I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could
    > be made to index OK with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a
    > 7-speed setup...might make a useful intermediate option.

    Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in
    having this stuff work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube
    shifters and deraileurs. The brifters will come latter on
    when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10 speed.
    >
    > > It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can
    > > convert from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo.
    > > From looking at some reference tables
    on
    > > Sheldon Brown's website
    > > (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
    > > Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the
    > > same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

    > Sheldon Replied: That's correct.

    >
    > > If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
    > > conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets
    that
    > > remain on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also
    > > seen a seller
    of
    > > this kit suggest it could also be used to convert from
    > > Campagnolo 10
    speed
    > > to Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my
    > > extension) since the
    cog
    > > width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same.
    > > Starting from 10
    speed
    > > has the advantage that I eventually end up with the
    > > cassette I want
    after
    > > doing the total Campagnolo conversion latter on.
    > >

    > Sheldon Replied: Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed
    > cassette? I'm 99% sure they fit on the newer hubs.

    I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes
    will work. Didn't they change their spline pattern in 1997?
    If I could pick up an inexpensive cassette that might be a
    reasonable possibility. The ones Harris lists (via QBP) are
    about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is about $100 and a
    Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With this approach, at the
    end of the day (after the complete conversion to Campagnolo
    10 spd) I end up with a cassette I'll continue to use and
    only have expended the $30 for the Shift-8 kit.

    >
    > > Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or
    > > 10 speed chain?
    >
    > Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram
    > PC58 for this application.
    >
    > Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown
     
  5. rosco wrote:

    >>>The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
    >>>compatibility.
    >
    > My
    >
    >>>current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge
    >>>sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed freewheel. The new
    >>>frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold setting the
    >>>rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
    >>>approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe
    >>>that converting that hub to 130mm spacing would be fairly
    >>>expensive and difficult.
    >
    I suggested:

    >>Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
    >>be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
    >>indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.
    >
    So rosco goes:
    >
    > That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
    > protrusion of about
    > 4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
    > the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual
    > locknut equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed
    > bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when
    > the skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns
    > with only a 2.75 mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm
    > washers wouldn't be grippy against the dropout in the
    > same sense?

    I'm assuming that your 130 mm frame has vertical dropouts,
    as almost all
    do. In that case there's no issue whatever with this,
    there's more than enough axle protrusion.

    >>>Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I
    >>>don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear wheel
    >>>in the short term as long as it can be made to work with
    >>>my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a
    >>>10 speed setup when I make the big switch latter on.
    >>
    >
    >>Sheldon Replied: I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could
    >>be made to index OK with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a
    >>7-speed setup...might make a useful intermediate option.
    >
    > Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in
    > having this stuff work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube
    > shifters and deraileurs. The brifters will come latter on
    > when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10 speed.

    If you're doing it piecemeal, as you suggest, you the
    cost of a pair of Campagnolo brifters is comparable to
    the cost of a new rear wheel, and gives more benefit in
    the short run.

    >>>It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can
    >>>convert from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo.
    >>>From looking at some reference tables
    >> on
    >>>Sheldon Brown's website
    >>>(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
    >>>Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the
    >>>same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).
    >
    >>Sheldon Replied: That's correct.
    >
    >>>If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
    >>>conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain
    >>>on the cassette. Do I have this right?

    I would guess that you'd be able to use all 8 with your
    downtube shifters. Shimano lever-type shifters can usually
    go past the last click, and the lowest gear would be indexed
    by the low-gear limit stop rather than by a detent in the
    shifter. This used to be a popular upgrade in the MTB world
    to make 7-speed thumb shifters work with 8-speed cassettes.

    Instead of a 10-speed cassette and a Wheels spacer kit, I
    suggested:

    >>Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99%
    >>sure they fit on the newer hubs.
    >
    >
    > I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes
    > will work. Didn't they change their spline pattern in
    > 1997? If I could pick up an inexpensive cassette that
    > might be a reasonable possibility. The ones Harris lists
    > (via QBP) are about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is
    > about $100 and a Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With
    > this approach, at the end of the day (after the complete
    > conversion to Campagnolo 10 spd) I end up with a cassette
    > I'll continue to use and only have expended the $30 for
    > the Shift-8 kit.

    You would presumably be buying an "8-speed" chain to use
    with the re-spaced cassette. Then, when you do finally make
    the upgrade to 10 youll need to buy a new chain anyway.

    I you go with the spacer option, this chain will then be
    used on a cassette consiting of 2 new and 8 used sprockets.
    Also, this option involves the short-term outlay of $130 vs
    $60 for my suggestion.

    If you go with the 8-speed cassette, in the long run you'll
    be spending $30 more, but when you do the final upgrade
    you'll have an all new 10 speed cassette to go with your
    new chain.

    I guess this comes down to how long you expect to ride the
    bike in the intermediate setup.

    Another consideration is the available gearing. Presumably
    you have a desired gear range to suit your conditions. If
    you buy a 10-speed with that range then remove two of the
    sprockets, you'll either have inadequate range or unpleasant
    gaps in your shift sequence.

    Sheldon "Choices, Choices..." Brown +-----------------------------------------------------
    ---------+
    | No state has an inherent right to survive through |
    | conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever
    | has. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------
    ---+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
    9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
    parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
    http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  6. Rosco

    Rosco Guest

    Thank you Sheldon.

    Your reasoning makes sense.

    I'll take this approach...

    Take my existing rear wheel and put the 2mm washers on and
    see how that works. If that works OK, that will be the
    least expensive intermediate setup possible as all of my
    existing components move over with only needing a $20ish
    bottom bracket.

    If I need to go to a Campagnolo rear wheel, I'll then get
    the $60 Record 8 speed cassette as you suggest.
     
  7. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >>Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
    >>be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
    >>indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.

    rosco wrote:
    > That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
    > protrusion of about
    > 4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
    > the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual
    > locknut equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed
    > bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when
    > the skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns
    > with only a 2.75 mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm
    > washers wouldn't be grippy against the dropout in the
    > same sense?

    I explained this to you on the telephone yesterday in
    exactly the words Sheldon uses. The end of the axle need
    only locate itself within the frame end (drop out). The
    locknut on one face and the skewer on the other actually
    clamp to the bicycle. The axle stub is not a load-bearing
    part. Your Mavic hub is neither simple nor cheap to respace.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
    April, 1971
     
Loading...
Loading...