Campagnolo parts (Shimagnolo in the making) - part prices? Best courseof action?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Franz Bestuchev, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. I've read about the "customer oriented" decision that Shimano made and
    enforced in order to shut down the OEM markets. I've personally always
    felt the "quality merchant and 30 day warranty" kind of policy is a good
    thing to have for those who know enough to do the work themselves.

    The DIY computer world has a very similar kind of market. Usually the
    same warranty, but a white box and none of the bundled software worth
    "over $500!"

    So I now have some decisions to make regarding my intentions to to move
    away from Shimano components - having been rudely woken up to the way
    they're doing business.

    Here's the parts I was thinking (and suggested for) building/replacing
    with and then the cost the LBS had given me on those parts.

    _______

    I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:

    *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    -$70
    *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.
    I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    saves me $30
    -$149 (or $180)
    *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    -as expected

    *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    simply drove off.
    -$50...sigh?


    _______

    Shifting/Drivetrain
    The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.

    *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    of the levers.
    -$189 (I forget the other cost)
    *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    -$139
    *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    -$89
    *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    -$44

    Installing this myself is not problem.

    _______

    So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    tossing MSRP at me?

    GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    gorgeous saturday.

    Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.
     
    Tags:


  2. bfd

    bfd Guest

    "Franz Bestuchev" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I've read about the "customer oriented" decision that Shimano made and
    > enforced in order to shut down the OEM markets. I've personally always
    > felt the "quality merchant and 30 day warranty" kind of policy is a good
    > thing to have for those who know enough to do the work themselves.
    >
    > The DIY computer world has a very similar kind of market. Usually the
    > same warranty, but a white box and none of the bundled software worth
    > "over $500!"
    >
    > So I now have some decisions to make regarding my intentions to to move
    > away from Shimano components - having been rudely woken up to the way
    > they're doing business.
    >
    > Here's the parts I was thinking (and suggested for) building/replacing
    > with and then the cost the LBS had given me on those parts.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    >
    > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > -$70
    > *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    > this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    > skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.
    > I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    > pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    > saves me $30
    > -$149 (or $180)
    > *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    > -as expected
    >
    > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > simply drove off.
    > -$50...sigh?
    >
    >
    > _______
    >
    > Shifting/Drivetrain
    > The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.
    >
    > *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    > to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    > me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    > of the levers.
    > -$189 (I forget the other cost)
    > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    > Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    > -$139
    > *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    > had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    > -$89
    > *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    > Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    > -$44
    >
    > Installing this myself is not problem.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    > tossing MSRP at me?
    >
    > GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    > commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    > gorgeous saturday.
    >
    > Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    > outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.


    One question, how much of the work can you do yourself? For the stuff you
    could do yourself, mail order for the parts you need to do it. For the stuff
    you can't do, like building a rear wheel, buy the parts from the the LBS and
    let them do it. You'll need to do some research as mail order prices may not
    be cheaper than your LBS.
     
  3. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    Franz Bestuchev wrote:

    >
    > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    >
    > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > -$70
    > *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    > this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    > skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.
    > I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    > pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    > saves me $30
    > -$149 (or $180)


    Centaur hubs are substantially different. They're loose-ball,
    cup'n'cone style, with the allen-key locknut, where Veloce use
    cartridge bearings. Mirage hubs are the same as Veloce, but are painted
    black instead of polished, and, like you say, have a plastic end cap on
    the skewer. Centaurs are lighter and smoother and have an oversized
    axle, but Veloce/Mirage are zero-maintenance.

    > *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    > -as expected


    If you DIY, do an ebay search for Sapim...r.b.t.'s Dave Ornee sells
    spokes dirt cheap ($35 for 72, including nipples and shipping) and
    Sapim are, IMO, much nicer spokes than DT.

    >
    > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > simply drove off.
    > -$50...sigh?


    That's about standard...anywhere between $40-60. The other option is to
    buy Jobst's book, a truing stand and a spoke wrench and DIY.

    Full disclosure....I toasted a Veloce front hub on my first
    wheelbuilding attempt...I tightened the spokes before checking that the
    spoke pattern made sense...the flanges got badly warped. Not an option
    tor the timid.


    > Shifting/Drivetrain
    > The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.
    >
    > *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    > to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    > me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    > of the levers.
    > -$189 (I forget the other cost)


    I have Veloces and they work fine, but that cut-out sure looks cool....

    > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    > Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    > -$139


    Centaur is ostensibly the higher-quality piece...I believe the main
    difference is an alloy rear cage plate, as opposed to Veloce's steel
    plate.

    > *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    > had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    > -$89


    Universalcycles.com has campy-compatible Miche cassettes for about half
    that. I've used both, and both work. Veloces are slightly lighter, but
    both shift very well.

    > *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    > Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    > -$44


    The curse of going to 10-speed. One of the reasons I went with 9.

    >
    > Installing this myself is not problem.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    > tossing MSRP at me?


    Campy prices are significantly lower from European dealers. If you're
    buying lots of parts, try totalcycling.com, out of Northern Ireland.
    When I ordered hubs, cassette, and chain, I think I saved about $75
    even after the GBP15 flat-rate shipping. If I'd ordered ergos and mechs
    at the same time, I'd have saved even more. I've also had good luck
    with cyclingbargains.com out of England. Their shipping charges are by
    weight, though.

    One warning, though...Campy USA won't honor warranty on goods sold
    overseas, so you would need to deal with the seller if you had
    problems.

    >
    > GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    > commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    > gorgeous saturday.
    >
    > Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    > outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.


    Best of luck!

    -Hank
     
  4. Franz Bestuchev wrote:
    > I've read about the "customer oriented" decision that Shimano made and
    > enforced in order to shut down the OEM markets. I've personally always
    > felt the "quality merchant and 30 day warranty" kind of policy is a good
    > thing to have for those who know enough to do the work themselves.
    >
    > The DIY computer world has a very similar kind of market. Usually the
    > same warranty, but a white box and none of the bundled software worth
    > "over $500!"
    >
    > So I now have some decisions to make regarding my intentions to to move
    > away from Shimano components - having been rudely woken up to the way
    > they're doing business.
    >
    > Here's the parts I was thinking (and suggested for) building/replacing
    > with and then the cost the LBS had given me on those parts.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    >
    > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > -$70
    > *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    > this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    > skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.


    Told wrong. Veloce is a steel axle, cart bearing hubset where as
    Centaur is aluminum axle, cup and ball hubset...Centaur and
    CHORUS0RECORD are very similar, same innards with plastic adjust plate
    on Centaur, aluminum for Chorus/Record, at least he got that right.

    > I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    > pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    > saves me $30
    > -$149 (or $180)
    > *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    > -as expected
    >
    > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > simply drove off.
    > -$50...sigh?
    >
    >
    > _______
    >
    > Shifting/Drivetrain
    > The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.
    >
    > *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    > to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    > me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    > of the levers.
    > -$189 (I forget the other cost)
    > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    > Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    > -$139
    > *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    > had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    > -$89
    > *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    > Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    > -$44
    >
    > Installing this myself is not problem.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    > tossing MSRP at me?


    Good prices, tossing MSRP?..They buy it and apply a margin to keep the
    lights on, about 35%. They are not getting rich at these prices, often
    just breaking even. I really dislike those that throw the 'MSRP' words
    around as if they are a swear word. Most good bike shops just apply
    this margin NOT outrageous at all.

    Get Veloce everything and Centaur hubs.....$50 for a well built wheel
    that takes about an hour to make is NOT outrageous at all either. GOTTA
    let these guys keep the lights on, pay themselves, .....
    >
    > GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    > commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    > gorgeous saturday.
    >
    > Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    > outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.
     
  5. Franz Bestuchev wrote:
    > I've read about the "customer oriented" decision that Shimano made and
    > enforced in order to shut down the OEM markets. I've personally always
    > felt the "quality merchant and 30 day warranty" kind of policy is a good
    > thing to have for those who know enough to do the work themselves.
    >
    > The DIY computer world has a very similar kind of market. Usually the
    > same warranty, but a white box and none of the bundled software worth
    > "over $500!"
    >
    > So I now have some decisions to make regarding my intentions to to move
    > away from Shimano components - having been rudely woken up to the way
    > they're doing business.
    >
    > Here's the parts I was thinking (and suggested for) building/replacing
    > with and then the cost the LBS had given me on those parts.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    >
    > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > -$70
    > *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    > this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    > skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.
    > I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    > pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    > saves me $30
    > -$149 (or $180)
    > *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    > -as expected
    >
    > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > simply drove off.
    > -$50...sigh?
    >
    >
    > _______
    >
    > Shifting/Drivetrain
    > The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.
    >
    > *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    > to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    > me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    > of the levers.
    > -$189 (I forget the other cost)
    > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    > Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    > -$139
    > *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    > had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    > -$89
    > *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    > Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    > -$44
    >
    > Installing this myself is not problem.
    >
    > _______
    >
    > So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    > tossing MSRP at me?
    >
    > GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    > commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    > gorgeous saturday.
    >
    > Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    > outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.



    Mail order options if you are going to do all of the parts installation
    yourself.
    Nashbar has the Veloce Ergo 10 speed levers for $170. Veloce 9 speed
    rear derailleur for $60. 9 or 10 speed rear derailleur makes no
    difference at all. I use a 10 speed on my 9 speed bike and a 9 speed
    on my 10 speed bike. Geet the LONG cage rear derailleur, not the
    medium. Performance Bike has a Record hub, Mavic Open Pro, 32 spoke,
    DT 14/15 gauge, brass, 3 cross, silver color rear wheel for $180. Pair
    for $300. You can then take this wheel to the bike shop and have them
    retrue it if you like. Hopefully less than $50 since the wheel is
    already built. Any 10 speed chain will work. Nashbar has a KMC 10
    speed chain for $30 or a Shimano 105 10 speed chain for $28. Universal
    Cycles has Veloce 10 speed cassette for $82.

    All of the above places have 10% off coupons going at the moment.
    edealinfo is a fairly good place to look for coupons. whatsyourdeal
    also has some. Do a Google search on coupons and the name of the mail
    order place.
     
  6. [email protected] wrote:
    > Franz Bestuchev wrote:
    > > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    > >
    > > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > > -$70


    Velocity Aerohead OC, 36 spokes?

    > > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > > simply drove off.
    > > -$50...sigh?


    Go for it. Today's money, for expert hand labor? That's cheap ssshh
    don't tell them...

    (Fred):
    > > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler


    (Russel):
    Geet the LONG cage rear derailleur, not the
    > medium.


    My "short" cage Record shifts a 26 low to 13 high, 9sp, very well. Why
    go to a med. or long? (a real question, not a jab, political flame,
    etc. etc.)

    If your shop has these parts or reliable supply of them, it might be
    best to spend a little more. IME, either mailorder or trying to buy
    locally can turn into a minor nightmare; best to go for the bird in
    hand.

    Yup, 10sp is expensive but OTOH, I just started using that 13-26 9sp.
    Love it, but wish I still had the 12 as in the old 12-23. Well, "that's
    why they went to 10"!! . --D-y
     
  7. [email protected] wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > Franz Bestuchev wrote:
    > > > I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    > > >
    > > > *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    > > > -$70

    >
    > Velocity Aerohead OC, 36 spokes?
    >
    > > > *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    > > > quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    > > > bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    > > > to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    > > > simply drove off.
    > > > -$50...sigh?

    >
    > Go for it. Today's money, for expert hand labor? That's cheap ssshh
    > don't tell them...
    >
    > (Fred):
    > > > *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler

    >
    > (Russel):
    > Geet the LONG cage rear derailleur, not the
    > > medium.

    >
    > My "short" cage Record shifts a 26 low to 13 high, 9sp, very well. Why
    > go to a med. or long? (a real question, not a jab, political flame,
    > etc. etc.)


    And my 1998 Chorus short cage rear derailleur shifts my 13-28 9 speed
    just fine too. But when I needed to put a triple crankset on the bike
    to do a week of mountain riding, I had to buy a medium cage rear
    derailleur to handle the extra chain wrap. At the time about everyone
    sold the medium cage and called it long. When putting the triple on
    the bike I tried to put on a 24 tooth inner ring, not nearly enough
    chain wrap from the medium to make me comfortable. And I did not have
    a 26 and the 28 cog would not fit. So I had to use the stock 30 inner
    ring in the mountains. A couple times I wished for lower gearing. If
    its a racing bike with a double, and you are not going to put a triple
    crank on it ever, then the short cage is the choice. But if you think
    you might want lower gears someday, the long cage gives you the most
    options. The medium seems pointless to me. I now have a long cage on
    the triple bike and will likely put a 24 inner ring on it when I go
    riding in the mountains again. The long cage allows that flexibility.
    The medium cage is now on the bike with a 94mm bcd double. It will be
    OK for 48-30 rings and 13-29 cassette.



    >
    > If your shop has these parts or reliable supply of them, it might be
    > best to spend a little more. IME, either mailorder or trying to buy
    > locally can turn into a minor nightmare; best to go for the bird in
    > hand.
    >
    > Yup, 10sp is expensive but OTOH, I just started using that 13-26 9sp.
    > Love it, but wish I still had the 12 as in the old 12-23. Well, "that's
    > why they went to 10"!! . --D-y
     
  8. [email protected] wrote:

    > And my 1998 Chorus short cage rear derailleur shifts my 13-28 9 speed
    > just fine too.


    Such are reports here, from the experts, and to 29t.

    > But when I needed to put a triple crankset on the bike
    > to do a week of mountain riding, I had to buy a medium cage rear
    > derailleur to handle the extra chain wrap. At the time about everyone
    > sold the medium cage and called it long. When putting the triple on
    > the bike I tried to put on a 24 tooth inner ring, not nearly enough
    > chain wrap from the medium to make me comfortable.


    Thanks. --D-y
     
  9. Qui si parla Campagnolo says...

    > Good prices, tossing MSRP?..They buy it and apply a margin to keep the
    > lights on, about 35%. They are not getting rich at these prices, often
    > just breaking even. I really dislike those that throw the 'MSRP' words
    > around as if they are a swear word. Most good bike shops just apply
    > this margin NOT outrageous at all.
    >
    > Get Veloce everything and Centaur hubs.....$50 for a well built wheel
    > that takes about an hour to make is NOT outrageous at all either. GOTTA
    > let these guys keep the lights on, pay themselves, .....


    I don't mind paying retail at a LBS. What bugs me is when they try to
    charge more than retail. I was quoted $179 for an FSA carbon seatpost
    the other day. That's retail plus dinner and a movie for two (albeit
    dinner at Arby's). I spent half a day visiting a half dozen bike stores
    in a major city, spent about $20 then went home and then spent about
    $800 online. I wanted to support them, I truly did, and I was willing
    to pay more. But bike shops carry very few high end parts these days
    and the few they have are over priced--often more than retail.

    Then there was the time when I went into a LBS and asked the guy the
    price on a pair of Speedplay Frogs. He said they didn't sell much of
    that stuff anymore since everybody bought online and told me $75. Of
    course I bought them and I also got a Thomson seatpost for $45. Far
    better prices than I had seen anywhere online. I know they can't stay
    open selling at those prices, but there should be a happy medium
    somewhere between selling at cost and 20% over retail. Selling at a
    somewhat lower margin is better than selling nothing, or am I missing
    something?
     
  10. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Franz Bestuchev wrote:
    >> I've read about the "customer oriented" decision that Shimano made and
    >> enforced in order to shut down the OEM markets. I've personally always
    >> felt the "quality merchant and 30 day warranty" kind of policy is a good
    >> thing to have for those who know enough to do the work themselves.
    >>
    >> The DIY computer world has a very similar kind of market. Usually the
    >> same warranty, but a white box and none of the bundled software worth
    >> "over $500!"
    >>
    >> So I now have some decisions to make regarding my intentions to to move
    >> away from Shimano components - having been rudely woken up to the way
    >> they're doing business.
    >>
    >> Here's the parts I was thinking (and suggested for) building/replacing
    >> with and then the cost the LBS had given me on those parts.
    >>
    >> _______
    >>
    >> I'm looking for starters to build a rear wheel:
    >>
    >> *Mavic Open Pro Rim*, black, 36°
    >> -$70
    >> *Campagnolo Centaur Rear Hub*, told that the only difference between
    >> this hub and the Veloce is the material from which the quick release
    >> skewer is made as well as a resin/plastic cover on the non-drive side.

    >
    > Told wrong. Veloce is a steel axle, cart bearing hubset where as
    > Centaur is aluminum axle, cup and ball hubset...Centaur and
    > CHORUS0RECORD are very similar, same innards with plastic adjust plate
    > on Centaur, aluminum for Chorus/Record, at least he got that right.
    >


    He may not have gotten it wrong, I may have just gotten things written
    down wrong or misunderstood things.

    I called back today and was given that same, correct, information.

    >> I'm not counting grams (or labels) - but unless their plastic has a
    >> pretty good reputation for not going funny in the cold/or old age...it
    >> saves me $30
    >> -$149 (or $180)
    >> *Spokes* minimal, $0.70 each...DT 14/15G double butted
    >> -as expected
    >>
    >> *BUILD COST* They've a very well known shop for their wheel build
    >> quality...but *$50*...I'm not a wealthy man, I've got a lot of medical
    >> bills to pay (not related to the crash for which these parts are needed
    >> to repair) the woman who clocked me and initiated this shopping spree
    >> simply drove off.
    >> -$50...sigh?
    >>
    >>
    >> _______
    >>
    >> Shifting/Drivetrain
    >> The original 105 STI levers are busted bad, BOTH. They'll be tossed.
    >>
    >> *Campagnolo Veloce (invoice says "VEL") ERGO levers, 10sp* I had asked
    >> to be quoted for the Centaur levers as the difference was explained to
    >> me that it was essentially just weight and a strategic knock-out on one
    >> of the levers.
    >> -$189 (I forget the other cost)
    >> *Centaur Long-Cage (Med/Long) Rear Derailler - 10sp* Any reason for
    >> Veloce or anything better quality? I can't imagine so.
    >> -$139
    >> *Veloce Cassette 10sp , either 12-23 or 12-25* This suites me fine, I
    >> had been running a 12-25 just fine!
    >> -$89
    >> *Campagnolo "CA VEL" 10sp Chain* It makes sense to me that I'd need a
    >> Campy chain...but the price for a chain seems REALLY, REALLY high.
    >> -$44
    >>
    >> Installing this myself is not problem.
    >>
    >> _______
    >>
    >> So are these good prices, or is my LBS taking me for a sucker? Are they
    >> tossing MSRP at me?

    >
    > Good prices, tossing MSRP?..They buy it and apply a margin to keep the
    > lights on, about 35%. They are not getting rich at these prices, often
    > just breaking even. I really dislike those that throw the 'MSRP' words
    > around as if they are a swear word. Most good bike shops just apply
    > this margin NOT outrageous at all.
    >


    I understand what you're saying, but MSRP is a price that *does* mean a
    bike shop will be able to buy a part and make what is, in all
    likelihood, a very good margin. Should the mfg. post prices in official
    literature they also will not see a number high than what their own
    price guns tag it at.

    I want a *good* shop to make a living, because it's in my best interest
    to keep the good shops alive. So for that reason if it comes down to a
    10% difference between local and best of mail order then I'd rather have
    a face to face interaction.

    Unfortunately I live in one of the wealthier sections of the US and
    there's no shortage of places willing to sell product at GIGANTIC
    markups to a customer base with no concern for the numbers on the
    receipt - just want to save 10 grams on the newest shiniest kool-aid.

    Meanwhile I'm struggling to just pay for my medications. Trying to fix
    my beloved road bike's parts is looking more and more like something
    that's going to keep it off the road for the summer. But it's OK I still
    have my mtn bike commuter to take out on the weekends.

    I don't want to come off as complaining about my situation but I can't
    go to a shop and help contribute to their fabulous redecoration and the
    fancy tech-chic looking 12 volt lighting systems.

    > Get Veloce everything and Centaur hubs.....$50 for a well built wheel
    > that takes about an hour to make is NOT outrageous at all either. GOTTA
    > let these guys keep the lights on, pay themselves, .....
    >> GAH! I just want to get myself back out in the rolling hills. My
    >> commuter is a great bike to ride but it's not what I want when it's a
    >> gorgeous saturday.
    >>
    >> Thanks for reading all this...helping me move away from this Japanese
    >> outfit with which I'd never had to deal with on such an expensive level.

    >


    Here's what I think I'm going to go with:

    Veloce rear hub, 36°
    -$80
    Mavic CXP 33 Rim
    -$80
    Veloce 12-25 Cassette
    -$90
    Veloce Chain
    $45
    Centaur Derailler, Long (their price differential to Veloce is pretty small)
    $140
    Veloce Shifter
    $190

    $50 to build the wheel, $35 to put the parts on -- and the guy said he
    would throw in the spokes for free. (So I'm basically getting free labor
    in putting the parts on - which I *could* do myself, but I'll let them
    have at it instead since I'm still on a learning curve with Campy ATM.)
     
  11. bfd

    bfd Guest

    "Franz Bestuchev" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > > Franz Bestuchev wrote:

    > Here's what I think I'm going to go with:
    >
    > Veloce rear hub, 36°
    > -$80


    Not a bad price, about the same as most mail order places.

    > Mavic CXP 33 Rim
    > -$80

    Mail order would be about $65 or so.If you don't mind another brand and your
    LBS does business with a distributor like QBP, you should look at Velocity
    rims, you could probably get an equivalent rim for 1/2 the price.

    > Veloce 12-25 Cassette
    > -$90


    Do you NEED to have Campy cassette? Although Veloce is the best value in
    Campy's lineup, you may want to see if your LBS can get Miche cassettes.
    Miche 10 cassettes list at about $65, and you can find for about $50 cheaper
    mail order.

    > Veloce Chain
    > $45


    Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable links. Work
    alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.

    > Centaur Derailler, Long (their price differential to Veloce is pretty

    small)
    > $140


    You may want to shop around, a Veloce long cage for QBP is listed at about
    $100; mail order about $80.

    > $50 to build the wheel, $35 to put the parts on -- and the guy said he
    > would throw in the spokes for free. (So I'm basically getting free labor
    > in putting the parts on - which I *could* do myself, but I'll let them
    > have at it instead since I'm still on a learning curve with Campy ATM.)


    $85 labor, which includes building a wheel is a good deal. Do it!
     
  12. > Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable
    > links. Work alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.


    IIRC, Campy chains have a quicklink, too.
    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  13. Barnard Frederick wrote:
    > Qui si parla Campagnolo says...
    >
    > > Good prices, tossing MSRP?..They buy it and apply a margin to keep the
    > > lights on, about 35%. They are not getting rich at these prices, often
    > > just breaking even. I really dislike those that throw the 'MSRP' words
    > > around as if they are a swear word. Most good bike shops just apply
    > > this margin NOT outrageous at all.
    > >
    > > Get Veloce everything and Centaur hubs.....$50 for a well built wheel
    > > that takes about an hour to make is NOT outrageous at all either. GOTTA
    > > let these guys keep the lights on, pay themselves, .....

    >
    > I don't mind paying retail at a LBS. What bugs me is when they try to
    > charge more than retail. I was quoted $179 for an FSA carbon seatpost
    > the other day. That's retail plus dinner and a movie for two (albeit
    > dinner at Arby's). I spent half a day visiting a half dozen bike stores
    > in a major city, spent about $20 then went home and then spent about
    > $800 online. I wanted to support them, I truly did, and I was willing
    > to pay more. But bike shops carry very few high end parts these days
    > and the few they have are over priced--often more than retail.


    That's yer bike shop-the prices quoted by the OP were what we
    charge...by adding the same margin to everything we 'buy'.
    >
    > Then there was the time when I went into a LBS and asked the guy the
    > price on a pair of Speedplay Frogs. He said they didn't sell much of
    > that stuff anymore since everybody bought online and told me $75. Of
    > course I bought them and I also got a Thomson seatpost for $45. Far
    > better prices than I had seen anywhere online. I know they can't stay
    > open selling at those prices, but there should be a happy medium
    > somewhere between selling at cost and 20% over retail. Selling at a
    > somewhat lower margin is better than selling nothing, or am I missing
    > something?


    You are missing a lot. Any decent study shows that to break even, pay
    all your expenses and have NOTHING left over is in the neighborhood of
    35%--that is take the cost, divide by .65...that's the normal, stay in
    biz, buy nothing extra price a bike shop should charge.

    IF you sell for less, you had better have volume to make up the
    difference to get over your break even point. If you make a 20% margin,
    then selling 'x' more will get you there but for a small bike shop,
    volume is normally not possible. For every $1 you bring in, it costs
    about $.65 or more....
     
  14. Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > > Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable
    > > links. Work alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.

    >
    > IIRC, Campy chains have a quicklink, too.
    > --
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training


    Phil...oh my!! Campag chains have never had a quick link and do not
    today...a push thru pin...
     
  15. bfd wrote:
    > "Franz Bestuchev" <franz.best[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > > > Franz Bestuchev wrote:

    > > Here's what I think I'm going to go with:
    > >
    > > Veloce rear hub, 36°
    > > -$80

    >
    > Not a bad price, about the same as most mail order places.
    >
    > > Mavic CXP 33 Rim
    > > -$80

    > Mail order would be about $65 or so.If you don't mind another brand and your
    > LBS does business with a distributor like QBP, you should look at Velocity
    > rims, you could probably get an equivalent rim for 1/2 the price.


    Bike shop seems to be charging a fair bit more than MSRP for the rim.
    I'd ask them to meet MSRP on this part.


    >
    > > Veloce 12-25 Cassette
    > > -$90

    >
    > Do you NEED to have Campy cassette? Although Veloce is the best value in
    > Campy's lineup, you may want to see if your LBS can get Miche cassettes.
    > Miche 10 cassettes list at about $65, and you can find for about $50 cheaper
    > mail order.


    $90 is an OK price. I would suggest the 13-26 10 speed cassette.
    13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26 cogs. Assuming the original person is
    using a triple crankset, why he wants a long cage rear derailleur, the
    52x13 is plenty high. And the 42 middle ring works great with a
    straight block of 13-19. The 12-25 has a poorer straight block.
    12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25. I'd give up the useless 12 for an 18
    anyday.


    >
    > > Veloce Chain
    > > $45

    >
    > Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable links. Work
    > alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.


    Wippermann and IRD and KMC have the removable link on their 10 speed
    chains. SRAM does not make a 10 speed chain or link. The not yet
    available for the public SRAM 10 speed chain has a one time use link.
    Not removable. Shimano also makes 10 speed chains. Wippermann and IRD
    sell their links separately so you could use it with the Shimano 10
    speed chain.


    >
    > > Centaur Derailler, Long (their price differential to Veloce is pretty

    > small)
    > > $140

    >
    > You may want to shop around, a Veloce long cage for QBP is listed at about
    > $100; mail order about $80.


    I agree this is outrageous. $60 for a Veloce long cage from Nashbar,
    before a 10% coupon discount. 9 or 10 speed Campagnolo rear
    derailleurs all work interchangeably. Do not reinforce pricing like
    this. Buy the rear derailleur elsewhere.



    >
    > > $50 to build the wheel, $35 to put the parts on -- and the guy said he
    > > would throw in the spokes for free. (So I'm basically getting free labor
    > > in putting the parts on - which I *could* do myself, but I'll let them
    > > have at it instead since I'm still on a learning curve with Campy ATM.)

    >
    > $85 labor, which includes building a wheel is a good deal. Do it!
     
  16. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    >>> Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable
    >>> links. Work alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.

    >>
    >> IIRC, Campy chains have a quicklink, too.
    >> --
    >> Phil, Squid-in-Training

    >
    > Phil...oh my!! Campag chains have never had a quick link and do not
    > today...a push thru pin...


    I pulled either a 9 or 10 speed Record out of the box and installed the
    included quick-link on it. I'll double-check it but I'm pretty sure... it
    even said C9 or C10 on the sideplate.
    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  17. "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> writes:

    >You are missing a lot. Any decent study shows that to break even, pay
    >all your expenses and have NOTHING left over is in the neighborhood of
    >35%--that is take the cost, divide by .65...that's the normal, stay in
    >biz, buy nothing extra price a bike shop should charge.


    >IF you sell for less, you had better have volume to make up the
    >difference to get over your break even point. If you make a 20% margin,
    >then selling 'x' more will get you there but for a small bike shop,
    >volume is normally not possible. For every $1 you bring in, it costs
    >about $.65 or more....


    This is very interesting. I saw from NBDA www.bicycleretailer.com
    that the average mom and pop shop _grosses_ $550k (2004)

    http://nbda.com/page.cfm?PageID=34

    With 11.4% parts and repair. This would indicate that a low overhead
    shop shows a gross profit (used to pay rent, taxes, and employees) of
    about 67,700 (repairs) + 487,300 (sales) * .35 = $238,255.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  18. In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...

    >Good prices, tossing MSRP?..They buy it and apply a margin to keep the
    >lights on, about 35%. They are not getting rich at these prices, often
    >just breaking even. I really dislike those that throw the 'MSRP' words
    >around as if they are a swear word. Most good bike shops just apply
    >this margin NOT outrageous at all.


    In other markets, like electronics, MSRP are complete fantasy with no
    basis on reality. So paying MSRP is foolish, for some stuff.
    ----------------
    Alex
     
  19. Qui si parla Campagnolo says...

    > That's yer bike shop-the prices quoted by the OP were what we
    > charge...by adding the same margin to everything we 'buy'.


    It's not my bike shop. I just stopped in there to look around and was
    scared away by an unnecessarily high price.

    > You are missing a lot. Any decent study shows that to break even, pay
    > all your expenses and have NOTHING left over is in the neighborhood of
    > 35%--that is take the cost, divide by .65...that's the normal, stay in
    > biz, buy nothing extra price a bike shop should charge.
    >
    > IF you sell for less, you had better have volume to make up the
    > difference to get over your break even point. If you make a 20% margin,
    > then selling 'x' more will get you there but for a small bike shop,
    > volume is normally not possible. For every $1 you bring in, it costs
    > about $.65 or more....


    I would think a 35% margin would be somewhat less than the typical MSRP,
    but I suppose it all depends on the particular item, the manufacturer
    and many other things. But, I repeat, MSRP isn't unreasonable. I just
    get extremely skeptical when I'm quoted prices that are way above that.
     
  20. Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > > Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > >>> Forget Campy chains. Get a SRAM or Wipperman with the removable
    > >>> links. Work alot better and way cheaper - can easily save $20.
    > >>
    > >> IIRC, Campy chains have a quicklink, too.
    > >> --
    > >> Phil, Squid-in-Training

    > >
    > > Phil...oh my!! Campag chains have never had a quick link and do not
    > > today...a push thru pin...

    >
    > I pulled either a 9 or 10 speed Record out of the box and installed the
    > included quick-link on it. I'll double-check it but I'm pretty sure... it
    > even said C9 or C10 on the sideplate.
    > --
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training


    Quick link like a Sram or Wipperman, reusable tow piece link, take
    apart w/o tools? Nope, not with Campag.....Push thru pin now, 9s chains
    had a push the pin back in system, first gen 10s had the permalink, not
    reuseable either.
     
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