Making the podium at both Flanders and Roubaix (will Boonen be given a chance to win?)

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Tony, Jan 24, 2003.

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  1. Tony

    Tony Guest

    It's interesting to look back and realize that in the modern era, only three men have managed to win
    both Flanders and Paris-Roubaix in the same year. These are the great Roger de Vlaeminck in 1977 and
    Rik van Looy in 1962, and also Raymond Impanis in 1954. (Before that Gaston Rebry in 1934, Romain
    Gijssels in 1932 and Henri Suter in 1923 also pulled off the double).

    As for making the podium in both Flanders and Roubaix in the same year:

    In the 60’s, it happened five times-

    1962- Rik Van Looy (1st RVV, 1st P-R) 1964- Benoni Beheyt (2nd RVV, 2nd P-R) 1965- Edward Sels (2nd
    RVV, 2nd P-R) 1968- Walter Goodefroot (1st RVV, 3rd P-R) 1969- Eddy Merckx (1st RVV, 2nd P-R)

    In the 70’s, it was almost a regular thing, occuring 60% of the time-

    1970- Eric Leman (1st RVV, 3rd P-R) 1972- Andre Dierickx (2nd RVV, 2nd P-R) 1973- Eddy Merckx (3rd
    RVV, 1st P-R) 1975- Eddy Merckx (1st RVV, 2nd P-R) 1976- Marc Demeyer (3rd RVV, 1st P-R) 1977- Roger
    de Vlaeminck (1st RVV, 1st P-R)

    In the 80’s, 4 different riders managed to podium in both races-

    1980- Francesco Moser (2nd RVV, 1st P-R) 1984- Sean Kelly (2nd RVV, 1st P-R) 1986- Adri van der
    Poel (1st RVV, 3rd P-R) 1987- Eric Vandereaerden (3rd RVV, 1st P-R) 1989- Edwig van Hooydonck (1st
    RVV, 3rd P-R)

    Since the 90’s and so far in the 2000’s only one man has managed to see the podium in
    both the Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix. No prizes for guessing Johan Museeuw.

    1995- Johan Museeuw (1st RVV, 3rd P-R) 1996- Johan Museeuw (3rd RVV, 1st P-R) 2002- Johan Museeuw
    (2nd RVV, 1st P-R)

    I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss Tom Boonen’s chances to win
    Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan does pull off the 4th
    Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to win Roubaix or will
    Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front of both races for the last 12 years once again claim
    his role as undisputed team leader?
     
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  2. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    >From: [email protected] (Tony)

    >I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss Tom Boonens chances to win
    >Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan does pull off the 4th
    >Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to win Roubaix or will
    >Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front of both races for the last 12 years once again
    >claim his role as undisputed team leader?
    >

    My guess would be that Boonen would be ordered to give himself up to support Museeuw. I think the
    reasoning would be "You are the future champion. Show it by helping Museeuw get one last great
    result. After that the team will want to work for you." I think that this happens if it is even
    vaguely possible for Museeuw to get the win.

    Bill C.
     
  3. "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >From: [email protected] (Tony)
    >
    > >I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss Tom Boonens chances to win
    > >Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan does pull off the 4th
    > >Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to win Roubaix or will
    > >Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front of both races for the last 12 years once again
    > >claim his role as undisputed team leader?
    > >
    >
    > My guess would be that Boonen would be ordered to give himself up to
    support
    > Museeuw. I think the reasoning would be "You are the future champion. Show
    it
    > by helping Museeuw get one last great result. After that the team will
    want to
    > work for you." I think that this happens if it is even vaguely possible
    for
    > Museeuw to get the win.

    They can't just choose like that - there are 150 other riders to contend with.

    Would they have chosen Servais Knaven over Museeuw in 2001? I think not. The circumstances of the
    race just happened to dictate that particular Domo attack was the one which was successful.
     
  4. "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >From: "Kurgan Gringioni"
    >
    > >They can't just choose like that - there are 150 other riders to contend with.
    > >
    > >Would they have chosen Servais Knaven over Museeuw in 2001? I think not.
    The
    > >circumstances of the race just happened to dictate that particular Domo attack was the one which
    > >was successful.
    > >
    > >
    > Granted they both would have to be up front near the end. I'm guessing
    they
    > both will be, but if it's say a group of 8 or 10 at that point I think
    you'll
    > see Boonen covering attacks and if it breaks just right for him like it
    did for
    > Knaven then they won't call him back. I do think that he will be told to
    work
    > for Museeuw if there is a chance Johan can win it.

    Knaven wasn't covering attacks (that is defensive) - all four the Domos were attacking (taking the
    intiative) to wear out Weseman, Hincapie and Dierckxens. In a situation like that Museeuw winning is
    not a foregone conclusion even if he is the most likely to come out on top because he is the
    cleverest and the most experienced of all.
     
  5. TritonRider wrote:
    >
    > >From: "Kurgan Gringioni"
    >
    > >Knaven wasn't covering attacks (that is defensive) - all four the Domos were attacking (taking
    > >the intiative) to wear out Weseman, Hincapie and Dierckxens. In a situation like that Museeuw
    > >winning is not a foregone conclusion even if he is the most likely to come out on top because he
    > >is the cleverest and the most experienced of all.
    > >
    > >
    > Thinking back on it your right about the situation, but I sure as hell never expected Knaven's
    > attack to be the one that stuck. I thought that he'd be caught and then Museeuw would counter and
    > be gone. That was a hell of a ride from Knaven. Bill C.

    there was an interesting post about it back when it happened, if you're interested: h

    http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3ADDE135%40MailAndNews.com

    "This whole discussion reminds me of a 'strategy' that was taught to me by a wiley old masters racer
    years ago.

    It's never a good idea to let a break get too far away, even if you have a rider (or two) in it.
    Some of this doesn't really apply to a one-man break, but... if you've got a man in the break, and
    the break gets an insurmountable gap, what do you do if your man flats/crashes/bonks/etc... Always
    stay close enough that if you need to replace or augment your man in the break, then you can make
    the bridge.

    In the case of Knavens' solo move, DOMO should've worked themselves to keep things a little closer,
    thus motivating the others to try to bridge. If they try to bridge and fail, then they've tired
    themselves and you can bridge up to your own rider. If they try to bridge and succeed,
    counterattack. Let the gap get too big, and they will give up. Then, your star rider (i.e. Museeuw)
    gets screwed from his chance to win, because the only alternative at that time is to attempt to
    bridge yourself, and thus setting yourself up for counterattack.

    Basically, had DOMO wanted Museeuw to win, they never should've let Knavens get such a large lead."
     
  6. "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >From: [email protected] (Tony)
    >
    > >I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss Tom Boonens chances to win
    > >Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan does pull off the 4th
    > >Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to win Roubaix or will
    > >Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front of both races for the last 12 years once again
    > >claim his role as undisputed team leader?
    > >
    >
    > My guess would be that Boonen would be ordered to give himself up to
    support
    > Museeuw. I think the reasoning would be "You are the future champion. Show
    it
    > by helping Museeuw get one last great result. After that the team will
    want to
    > work for you." I think that this happens if it is even vaguely possible
    for
    > Museeuw to get the win.
    >
    > Bill C.

    I would look for Museeu to support Boonen at the Ronde in-as-much-as the Ronde is probably
    beyond Museeuw's ability to win again, even with Boonen's support. But look for Boonen to
    support Museeuw in his quest to equal Mr. Paris Roubaix's record of four. Museeuw is still the
    favorite in P-R, with or without Boonen there.

    Brian Lafferty
     
  7. "heather halvorson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > TritonRider wrote:
    > >
    > > >From: "Kurgan Gringioni"
    > >
    > > >Knaven wasn't covering attacks (that is defensive) - all four the Domos
    were
    > > >attacking (taking the intiative) to wear out Weseman, Hincapie and Dierckxens. In a situation
    > > >like that Museeuw winning is not a foregone conclusion even if he is the most likely to come
    > > >out on top because he
    is
    > > >the cleverest and the most experienced of all.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > Thinking back on it your right about the situation, but I sure as hell
    never
    > > expected Knaven's attack to be the one that stuck. I thought that he'd
    be
    > > caught and then Museeuw would counter and be gone. That was a hell of a ride from Knaven.
    > > Bill C.
    >
    > there was an interesting post about it back when it happened, if you're
    interested:
    > h
    >
    >
    http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3ADDE135%40MailAndNe ws.com
    >
    > "This whole discussion reminds me of a 'strategy' that was taught to me by a wiley old masters
    > racer years ago.
    >
    > It's never a good idea to let a break get too far away, even if you have a rider (or two) in it.
    > Some of this doesn't really apply to a one-man break, but... if you've got a man in the break, and
    > the break gets an insurmountable gap, what do you do if your man flats/crashes/bonks/etc... Always
    > stay close enough that if you need to replace or augment your man in the break, then you can make
    > the bridge.
    >
    > In the case of Knavens' solo move, DOMO should've worked themselves to keep things a little
    > closer, thus motivating the others to try to bridge. If they try to bridge and fail, then they've
    > tired themselves and you can bridge up to your own rider. If they try to bridge and succeed,
    > counterattack. Let the gap get too big, and they will give up. Then, your star rider (i.e.
    > Museeuw) gets screwed from his chance to win, because the only alternative at that time is to
    > attempt to bridge yourself, and thus setting yourself up for counterattack.
    >
    > Basically, had DOMO wanted Museeuw to win, they never should've let Knavens get such a
    > large lead."

    My fantasy prediction for the Ronde

    1. VDB
    2. Boonen
    3. Museeuw
    4. Bettini

    Brian Lafferty
     
  8. "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > I would look for Museeu to support Boonen at the Ronde in-as-much-as
    the
    > Ronde is probably beyond Museeuw's ability to win again, even with
    Boonen's
    > support

    What?

    Museeuw beat Van Petegem, Nardello and Hincapie in the sprint for 2nd (at Flanders) last year.
    Nardello was even sitting on for the last portion of the race since teammate Tafi was off the front.

    Museeuw also won the sprint and the race at the 2002 HEW Cycleclassics, a World Cup race.

    The Old Man not getting slower. He still has the anaerobic punch. Barring injury or a raging-on-form
    Van Petegem, the cycling pundits will tag Museeuw as the favorite going into the Ronde next year.
     
  9. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

    > They can't just choose like that - there are 150 other riders to contend with.
    >
    They can just choose like that, if they are trying to beat 150 other riders. Who attacks first, to
    put the peloton on its toes? Not the leader. Would you place Museeuw or Boonen on the attack first?
    By answering that question you have assigned a leader.

    > Would they have chosen Servais Knaven over Museeuw in 2001? I think not. The circumstances of the
    > race just happened to dictate that particular Domo attack was the one which was successful.
    >
    Exactly. That means the Knaven was a worthy though unintended winner that year. Choosing a leader
    sets the order of attack. With a race like PR it helps to have more than one assigned leader due to
    luck being a rather large factor in determining the winner. But when the race enters its finale you
    must still have an undisputed leader. In PR, if Hincapie, Museeuw, Boonen, ven Petegem and Wesemann
    were still together 20 km from the finish, who would you place on the attack?

    ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [email protected] Kyle Legate [email protected]

    Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
    musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
     
  10. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss
    Tom
    > Boonen's chances to win Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan
    > does pull off the 4th Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to
    > win Roubaix or will Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front
    of
    > both races for the last 12 years once again claim his role as undisputed team leader?

    Johan isn't, I think, going to pass up a chance for a classics win. Boonen is the NEXT Museeuw not
    the first.

    I agree with the person who predicts that Tom Boonen will look promising again this year but will
    then fade out and never again show more than glimpses of talent.
     
  11. --
    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    >
    > "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > I would look for Museeu to support Boonen at the Ronde in-as-much-as
    > the
    > > Ronde is probably beyond Museeuw's ability to win again, even with
    > Boonen's
    > > support
    >
    >
    > What?
    >
    > Museeuw beat Van Petegem, Nardello and Hincapie in the sprint for 2nd (at Flanders) last
    > year. Nardello was even sitting on for the last portion of the race since teammate Tafi was
    > off the front.

    I recall Museeuw trying to get away (on the Bosberg?) and not having the ability of old to to
    make it stick. The Musseuw of old would have had Taffi covered and not looked to Hapless George
    to do the work. Second place isn't first. But we'll see what happens in several weeks. It will
    be interesting to see VDB take the Ronde. :)
    >
    > Museeuw also won the sprint and the race at the 2002 HEW Cycleclassics, a World Cup race.

    No comparison.
    >
    > The Old Man not getting slower. He still has the anaerobic punch. Barring injury or a
    > raging-on-form Van Petegem, the cycling pundits will tag
    Museeuw
    > as the favorite going into the Ronde next year.

    The same pundits who had Armstong in deep trouble at the back of the pack? Seriously, Museeuw
    will, of course, be one of the heavy favorits but I still look for him to win Paris-Roubaix and
    not the Ronde. I'd be happier if that was reversed with Roger de V's record remaining intact. I
    think I'll watch Sunday In Hell this afternoon and drive my wife more nuts than usual.

    Brian Lafferty
     
  12. "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]ter.ca...
    > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > > They can't just choose like that - there are 150 other riders to contend with.
    > >
    > They can just choose like that, if they are trying to beat 150 other riders. Who attacks first, to
    > put the peloton on its toes? Not the leader. Would you place Museeuw or Boonen on the attack
    > first? By answering that question you have assigned a leader.

    The year Museeuw bridged up to Andreu, dropped him, then stayed away to the finish, he went from 40k
    out. He wanted to be the first to attack as Tafi and Ballerini were teamates - Museeuw didn't want
    to be restrained while one of them was off the front.

    Contrast that situation to last year when Wilfried Peeters was the first to attack through the
    Arenberg Forest, then Knaven takes the victory.

    There are no hard fast rules because even the Wizard of Paris-Roubaix, Lefevre cannot predict what
    the opponents' reactions will be.
     
  13. "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > The Old Man not getting slower. He still has the anaerobic punch.
    Barring
    > > injury or a raging-on-form Van Petegem, the cycling pundits will tag
    > Museeuw
    > > as the favorite going into the Ronde next year.
    >
    > The same pundits who had Armstong in deep trouble at the back of the pack? Seriously, Museeuw
    > will, of course, be one of the heavy favorits
    but
    > I still look for him to win Paris-Roubaix and not the Ronde. I'd be
    happier
    > if that was reversed with Roger de V's record remaining intact. I think I'll watch Sunday In Hell
    > this afternoon and drive my wife more nuts than usual.

    Museeuw has stated publicly he would rather win the Ronde. He calls it "My Flanders".
     
  14. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > The Old Man not getting slower. He still has the anaerobic punch.
    > Barring
    > > > injury or a raging-on-form Van Petegem, the cycling pundits will tag
    > > Museeuw
    > > > as the favorite going into the Ronde next year.
    > >
    > > The same pundits who had Armstong in deep trouble at the back of the pack? Seriously,
    > > Museeuw will, of course, be one of the heavy favorits
    > but
    > > I still look for him to win Paris-Roubaix and not the Ronde. I'd be
    > happier
    > > if that was reversed with Roger de V's record remaining intact. I think I'll watch Sunday In
    > > Hell this afternoon and drive my wife more nuts
    than
    > > usual.
    >
    >
    > Museeuw has stated publicly he would rather win the Ronde. He calls it "My Flanders".

    Of course he would. What Belgian in his right mind wouldn't? But I
    think P-R is the better bet for him. Look for VDB's dog to win the Ronde.

    BTW, Henry's right. The classics rule. Who gives a shit about the modernized Tour? :)

    Brian Lafferty
     
  15. easyrider

    easyrider New Member

    Joined:
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    Museeuw is a Belgian. He has to say that he would rather win the Ronde. But really, don't we all think that he would just love to win either? In life beggars can't be choosers. In cycling, even champions can seldom be choosers. The sport is too tough and there is too much luck involved.

    I would like to point out that Museeuw, on several occassions in Paris-Roubaix rode in the role of perfect teammate when he had guys up the rode. Sometimes it had to be killing him to do it but he did it anyway. That always made him an even greater champion in my mind.
     
  16. Chris M

    Chris M Guest

    If that happens, he will break his contract to go where he is appreciated.

    "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >From: [email protected] (Tony)
    >
    > >I started looking at these a result of hearing some people discuss Tom Boonens chances to win
    > >Paris-Roubaix this year, while riding for Quickstep and Museeuw. If Johan does pull off the 4th
    > >Flanders victory and Boonen is riding well, will Boonen be given a chance to win Roubaix or will
    > >Museeuw, the only rider able to be at the front of both races for the last 12 years once again
    > >claim his role as undisputed team leader?
    > >
    >
    > My guess would be that Boonen would be ordered to give himself up to
    support
    > Museeuw. I think the reasoning would be "You are the future champion. Show
    it
    > by helping Museeuw get one last great result. After that the team will
    want to
    > work for you." I think that this happens if it is even vaguely possible
    for
    > Museeuw to get the win.
    >
    > Bill C.
     
  17. "easyrider" <[email protected]@mysite.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Museeuw is a Belgian. He has to say that he would rather win the Ronde.

    No he doesn't. He is such a God in Belgium that he can say whatever he wants.

    > But really, don't we all think that he would just love to win either? In life beggars can't be
    > choosers. In cycling, even champions can seldom be choosers. The sport is too tough and there is
    > too much luck involved.
    >
    > I would like to point out that Museeuw, on several occassions in Paris-Roubaix rode in the role of
    > perfect teammate when he had guys up the rode. Sometimes it had to be killing him to do it but he
    > did it anyway. That always made him an even greater champion in my mind.

    Disagree.

    Not chasing down teamates is behavior that is expected.

    You may as well say that not being a wife-beater makes someone an even greater champion also. Not
    being a wife-beater is also expected behavior.
     
  18. Dave Hansen

    Dave Hansen Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:9RYY9.4875>
    >
    >
    > Disagree.
    >
    > Not chasing down teamates is behavior that is expected.

    Then why do the Italians do it? Dave
     
  19. easyrider

    easyrider New Member

    Joined:
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    Thanks Dave.

    Riding in the role of teammate makes him a GREATER champion. He would be a champion anyway, based on his palmares, but doing the professional thing, when so many other riders fail to, shows his class.

    And comparing this to wife beating is a false analogy and it is a classic logical fallacy.
     
  20. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    Have you lost your mind. Johan is the one and only leader for Flanders and Paris-Roubaix. Come on,
    where is the logic in Museeuw riding for Boonen in the race where nobody else got better results
    than him (Flanders) or in the race where there's only Roger De Vlaeminck ahead of him (Roubaix)? I'm
    sure Tom Boonen will be a protected rider, but when things are getting serious and when it's
    necessary, Boonen will sacrifice his chances on Museeuw's demand. This doesn't mean that Tom doesn't
    have the chance to try something himself. But when the Lion of Flanders feels great, there's nothing
    to do about him.

    > I would look for Museeu to support Boonen at the Ronde in-as-much-as the Ronde is probably
    > beyond Museeuw's ability to win again, even with Boonen's support. But look for Boonen to
    > support Museeuw in his quest to equal Mr. Paris Roubaix's record of four. Museeuw is still the
    > favorite in P-R, with or without Boonen there.
    >
    > Brian Lafferty
     
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