Mavic Cosmos - spoke tension and truing

[smokva]

I wanted to report an extremley bad built Mavic Cosmos rear wheel.
I had many problems with this wheel, from loose spokes to clicking rims and
cracked eyelets.
Since I bought Park Tool tension meter I 'll show you how does Mavic build
their factory wheeles.

First picture is the rear wheel as it came from the factory.
http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_01.png
If this ain't sloppy building, than I don't know what it is.

After just few minutes I was able to true it with tension like this:
http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_02.png
Somewhat better, but far away from perfect. I still had to level the tension on
both sides since it is sawtoothead (right phrase? eng. is not my primary
language)

Than it came to my mind that I haven't remove air pressure from tyre, and that
all the tensions are higher. But how much? I measured it and this is what I saw:
http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_03.png
WOW Right side averages 162 kgf, that's 1600 Newtons.....way of the scale. I
was thinking it should be around 120 kgf, and I have some spokes even at 175
kgf.
Well done Mavic!!! Now I understand why the rim has cracks around spoke holes
on the right side.

I guess all I can do is buy another rim and build it properly. Or I could ride
this rim and wait for it to fail and pull out a spoke in the end. Hope it wont
be any time soon. Detensioning wouldn't be a bad idea too )

I guess no more Mavic products on my bike after this, at least no more factory
built wheels.
Any coments?

 

[[email protected]]

I had a similar experience with a rear 2004 Cosmos where it was true,
but the tension was amazingly uneven. Had to ratchet up the tension to
get the loose spokes to stop being slack.

 

[jim beam]

smokva wrote:
> I wanted to report an extremley bad built Mavic Cosmos rear wheel.
> I had many problems with this wheel, from loose spokes to clicking rims and
> cracked eyelets.
> Since I bought Park Tool tension meter I 'll show you how does Mavic build
> their factory wheeles.
>
> First picture is the rear wheel as it came from the factory.
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_01.png
> If this ain't sloppy building, than I don't know what it is.
>
> After just few minutes I was able to true it with tension like this:
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_02.png
> Somewhat better, but far away from perfect. I still had to level the tension on
> both sides since it is sawtoothead (right phrase? eng. is not my primary
> language)
>
> Than it came to my mind that I haven't remove air pressure from tyre, and that
> all the tensions are higher. But how much? I measured it and this is what I saw:
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_03.png
> WOW Right side averages 162 kgf, that's 1600 Newtons.....way of the scale. I
> was thinking it should be around 120 kgf, and I have some spokes even at 175
> kgf.
> Well done Mavic!!! Now I understand why the rim has cracks around spoke holes
> on the right side.
>
> I guess all I can do is buy another rim and build it properly. Or I could ride
> this rim and wait for it to fail and pull out a spoke in the end. Hope it wont
> be any time soon. Detensioning wouldn't be a bad idea too )
>
> I guess no more Mavic products on my bike after this, at least no more factory
> built wheels.
> Any coments?
>
your wheel must have been monkeyed with by the shop before you bought
it. i have a week old mavic cosmos straight from the sealed factory
box. its drive side spoke tensions average 950N. admittedly, after a
week of use, it's not quite as true as wheels i've built myself, but
it's still within 0.5mm. at that tension, for a double-eyeletted wheel,
i seriously doubt you'll see cracking any time before the rim wears out.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

smokva wrote:
> I wanted to report an extremley bad built Mavic Cosmos rear wheel.
> I had many problems with this wheel, from loose spokes to clicking rims and
> cracked eyelets.
> Since I bought Park Tool tension meter I 'll show you how does Mavic build
> their factory wheeles.
>
> First picture is the rear wheel as it came from the factory.
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_01.png
> If this ain't sloppy building, than I don't know what it is.
>
> After just few minutes I was able to true it with tension like this:
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_02.png
> Somewhat better, but far away from perfect. I still had to level the tension on
> both sides since it is sawtoothead (right phrase? eng. is not my primary
> language)
>
> Than it came to my mind that I haven't remove air pressure from tyre, and that
> all the tensions are higher. But how much? I measured it and this is what I saw:
> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_03.png
> WOW Right side averages 162 kgf, that's 1600 Newtons.....way of the scale. I
> was thinking it should be around 120 kgf, and I have some spokes even at 175
> kgf.
> Well done Mavic!!! Now I understand why the rim has cracks around spoke holes
> on the right side.
>
> I guess all I can do is buy another rim and build it properly. Or I could ride
> this rim and wait for it to fail and pull out a spoke in the end. Hope it wont
> be any time soon. Detensioning wouldn't be a bad idea too )
>
> I guess no more Mavic products on my bike after this, at least no more factory
> built wheels.
> Any coments?
>


'''Conventional wheels built exceptionally well.....by a good wheel
builder. MANY 'factory' built wheels are poorly built. From zillion
dollar all carbon ones to Wheelsmith 'gold label' ones.

When mavic decided to build wheels after being bought by Soloman, they
have consistently marketed well, built poorly.

 

[jim beam]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> smokva wrote:
>
>> I wanted to report an extremley bad built Mavic Cosmos rear wheel.
>> I had many problems with this wheel, from loose spokes to clicking
>> rims and cracked eyelets.
>> Since I bought Park Tool tension meter I 'll show you how does Mavic
>> build their factory wheeles.
>>
>> First picture is the rear wheel as it came from the factory.
>> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_01.png
>> If this ain't sloppy building, than I don't know what it is.
>>
>> After just few minutes I was able to true it with tension like this:
>> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_02.png
>> Somewhat better, but far away from perfect. I still had to level the
>> tension on both sides since it is sawtoothead (right phrase? eng. is
>> not my primary language)
>>
>> Than it came to my mind that I haven't remove air pressure from tyre,
>> and that all the tensions are higher. But how much? I measured it and
>> this is what I saw:
>> http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/temp/smokva/Cosmos_rear_03.png
>> WOW Right side averages 162 kgf, that's 1600 Newtons.....way of the
>> scale. I was thinking it should be around 120 kgf, and I have some
>> spokes even at 175 kgf.
>> Well done Mavic!!! Now I understand why the rim has cracks around
>> spoke holes on the right side.
>>
>> I guess all I can do is buy another rim and build it properly. Or I
>> could ride this rim and wait for it to fail and pull out a spoke in
>> the end. Hope it wont be any time soon. Detensioning wouldn't be a bad
>> idea too )
>>
>> I guess no more Mavic products on my bike after this, at least no more
>> factory built wheels.
>> Any coments?
>>
>
>
> '''Conventional wheels built exceptionally well.....by a good wheel
> builder.

in my experience, such a wheel is very very hard to come by. i've
visited practically every decent bike shop here in the bay area over the
years & i've only come across one where i have complete confidence that
they can build a wheel that stays absolutely true. and he's damned
expensive.

now, /i/ am prepared to pay for that quality and am sufficiently
persistent to keep taking stuff back if it's not right, but it seems
that not many other people are. on this basis, pre-builts are a /much/
safer bet for the average joe than taking a chance on the garbage most
lbs's turn out.

> MANY 'factory' built wheels are poorly built. From zillion
> dollar all carbon ones to Wheelsmith 'gold label' ones.
>
> When mavic decided to build wheels after being bought by Soloman, they
> have consistently marketed well, built poorly.

 

[Shawn Amir]

"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> in my experience, such a wheel is very very hard to come by. i've visited
> practically every decent bike shop here in the bay area over the years &
> i've only come across one where i have complete confidence that they can
> build a wheel that stays absolutely true. and he's damned expensive....
>

Pray tell, who is this person? ... with apologies for the geographically
limited content.

I build my own, but my friends refuse to try and keep hinting that I should
do a set for them. It would be great if I could send them over to someone
with full confidence.... so far the only person I found has been Dave Prion
at the Outfitter in Los Altos. (Alas, while Dave has the skills, he lacks
the time as my friend has been waiting for a month on his build.)

Cheers, Shawn

 

[jim beam]

Shawn Amir wrote:
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>in my experience, such a wheel is very very hard to come by. i've visited
>>practically every decent bike shop here in the bay area over the years &
>>i've only come across one where i have complete confidence that they can
>>build a wheel that stays absolutely true. and he's damned expensive....
>>
>
>
> Pray tell, who is this person? ... with apologies for the geographically
> limited content.
>
> I build my own, but my friends refuse to try and keep hinting that I should
> do a set for them. It would be great if I could send them over to someone
> with full confidence.... so far the only person I found has been Dave Prion
> at the Outfitter in Los Altos. (Alas, while Dave has the skills, he lacks
> the time as my friend has been waiting for a month on his build.)
>
> Cheers, Shawn
>
>
len at the bike nook in san francisco. closed on sundays. no fat
tires. campy die-hard. quill stems. wool jerseys. della santa
stockist. real old school. rides real fast.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

jim beam wrote:

>>
>>
> len at the bike nook in san francisco. closed on sundays. no fat
> tires. campy die-hard. quill stems. wool jerseys. della santa
> stockist. real old school. rides real fast.
>

Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect. 'Expensive' to build a
wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.

As for this thread, I can only speak for myself, where the three of us
build about 500 wheels per year, sell almost no wheels built elsewhere(1
pair of Cosmic Carbones this year). We do so well cuz so many wheels
that are either supplied on their bikes or that come from manufacturers
are so poor.

BUT there are few good wheelbuilders out there, too bad. Not a lot of
good tailors either.

 

[Jeff Starr]

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:07:42 -0600, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>
>Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect. 'Expensive' to build a
>wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.
>
>As for this thread, I can only speak for myself, where the three of us
>build about 500 wheels per year, sell almost no wheels built elsewhere(1
>pair of Cosmic Carbones this year). We do so well cuz so many wheels
>that are either supplied on their bikes or that come from manufacturers
>are so poor.
>
>BUT there are few good wheelbuilders out there, too bad. Not a lot of
>good tailors either.


Hi, this might be a good place to share a wheel story. Last week I
took my LeMond into a LBS that I live near. My usual LBS had a
mechanic that I really liked, but he left the area, so this other
shop, has some more experienced guys. I do a lot of my own work, but
have my limitations. I wanted the alignment of the RD checked. Anyway,
as it turned out the hanger was bent and they straightened it, using
the proper gauge. The owner stepped in and did the work, as the wrench
had to deal with a customer, he had already started with.

All is fine and well, then he tells me that my rear wheel has a flat
spot. Turns the wheel, see it, see it, see it, and no I didn't see it.
The wheels are the ones Peter built with DA hubs and Velocity Aerohead
rims. They are true as can be, after 2700 miles.

He walks away and returns with a Bontrager paired spoke wheel. On sale
that weekend, normally $ 365[I think], but $265 with tubes and tires.
He then tells me how the hubs are superior in performnce to my DAs,
because they have cartridge bearings. The clincher was measurable
improved performance that I would see on my odometer and by rolling
down a hill. He said the Bontragers would roll further than my
wheels.

Until he tried to sell me these wheels, I was starting to think that
this was a decent shop, deserving more of my business. Now, I think I
will continue to be loyal, whenever possible, to the shop that I
bought my bike at. The only service work I will require, in the
forseeable future, is to have a new headset installed. Where I go,
will depend on the response from the wrenches at my original shop.

The wheels from Peter have been problem free and have stayed true. Of
course they are sensible wheels with 28 spokes in front and 32 in the
rear. My riding weight is around 160lbs. They look good too, with red
rims, black spokes, silver colored brass nipples, and the DA hubs.


Life is Good!
Jeff

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect. 'Expensive' to build a
> wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.

Do you charge extra to build with the 2.0/1.5/2.0 DT Revolutions? I've
just built a track front wheel with them and I reckon it took almost
twice as long as with DT Competitions. I mean, it's a nice wheel now
it's done, but those things wind up horribly. I used the marker pen
trick to ensure it was all untwisted at the end.

 

[smokva]

Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote:

>I used the marker pen
>trick to ensure it was all untwisted at the end.

I find piece of tape more appropriate for that kind of job.

 

[jim beam]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>> len at the bike nook in san francisco. closed on sundays. no fat
>> tires. campy die-hard. quill stems. wool jerseys. della santa
>> stockist. real old school. rides real fast.
>>
>
> Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect.

yes, he's perfect. wander in on a busy saturday & mention fat tires...

> 'Expensive' to build a
> wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.

istr something close to $100. i had no problem paying for quality,
especially when after i'd bent one in a crash, he fixed it for free
after 3 other shops had charged me various sums to tell me the rim was
bent & the wheel was irrepairable.

>
> As for this thread, I can only speak for myself, where the three of us
> build about 500 wheels per year, sell almost no wheels built elsewhere(1
> pair of Cosmic Carbones this year). We do so well cuz so many wheels
> that are either supplied on their bikes or that come from manufacturers
> are so poor.

do you get to play with other people's "hand built" wheels very often?
some are truly disgusting. last summer i rode with a guy that had paid
over $500 for a pair of "hand built" ultegra/cxp21's. he had to ride
with the brake calipers open... made you want to cry.

>
> BUT there are few good wheelbuilders out there, too bad. Not a lot of
> good tailors either.

 

[Peter Cole]

jim beam wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> > 'Expensive' to build a
> > wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.
>
> istr something close to $100. i had no problem paying for quality,
> especially when after i'd bent one in a crash, he fixed it for free
> after 3 other shops had charged me various sums to tell me the rim
was
> bent & the wheel was irrepairable.

Wow. I bought a pair of Ultegra/Open Pro mail-order 4-5 years ago for
$215, including 9-speed Ultegra cassette, tubes & tires. Build quality
sucked, like most factory wheels, I evened & increased the tension,
stress relieved and trued them. Many thousands of miles later, no
problems. I've done the same thing with about a half-dozen other pairs
of wheels. If you're not tone-deaf, it's not hard to get even and
correct tension. Other than that, it's just learning how to true a
wheel. It's not voodoo. Oh yeah, being 6'10"/235, finding ideal spoke
tension is a bit more critical for me. I don't have a tensiometer or a
truing stand, it's still not difficult.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Jeff Starr wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:07:42 -0600, Qui si parla Campagnolo
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect. 'Expensive' to build a
>>wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.
>>
>>As for this thread, I can only speak for myself, where the three of us
>>build about 500 wheels per year, sell almost no wheels built elsewhere(1
>>pair of Cosmic Carbones this year). We do so well cuz so many wheels
>>that are either supplied on their bikes or that come from manufacturers
>>are so poor.
>>
>>BUT there are few good wheelbuilders out there, too bad. Not a lot of
>>good tailors either.
>
>
>
> Hi, this might be a good place to share a wheel story. Last week I
> took my LeMond into a LBS that I live near. My usual LBS had a
> mechanic that I really liked, but he left the area, so this other
> shop, has some more experienced guys. I do a lot of my own work, but
> have my limitations. I wanted the alignment of the RD checked. Anyway,
> as it turned out the hanger was bent and they straightened it, using
> the proper gauge. The owner stepped in and did the work, as the wrench
> had to deal with a customer, he had already started with.
>
> All is fine and well, then he tells me that my rear wheel has a flat
> spot. Turns the wheel, see it, see it, see it, and no I didn't see it.
> The wheels are the ones Peter built with DA hubs and Velocity Aerohead
> rims. They are true as can be, after 2700 miles.
>
> He walks away and returns with a Bontrager paired spoke wheel. On sale
> that weekend, normally $ 365[I think], but $265 with tubes and tires.
> He then tells me how the hubs are superior in performnce to my DAs,
> because they have cartridge bearings. The clincher was measurable
> improved performance that I would see on my odometer and by rolling
> down a hill. He said the Bontragers would roll further than my
> wheels.
>
> Until he tried to sell me these wheels, I was starting to think that
> this was a decent shop, deserving more of my business. Now, I think I
> will continue to be loyal, whenever possible, to the shop that I
> bought my bike at. The only service work I will require, in the
> forseeable future, is to have a new headset installed. Where I go,
> will depend on the response from the wrenches at my original shop.
>
> The wheels from Peter have been problem free and have stayed true. Of
> course they are sensible wheels with 28 spokes in front and 32 in the
> rear. My riding weight is around 160lbs. They look good too, with red
> rims, black spokes, silver colored brass nipples, and the DA hubs.
>
>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

Thanks for the pitch and yes, too many bike shops are there to sell ya
something whether ya need it or not. I just took a 20 year old Torelli,
with downtube shifters, shimano 600, freewheel, and put a Centaur triple
group on it. He was told by every other shop he visited, in Boulder and
Denver, that it could NOT be upgraded and buying a new bike was the ONLY
way to get ERGO/STI and a triple.

So it goes. I think part of it is the state the bike biz is in. Flat and
no real idea on how to get more people on bikes and keep them there.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

jim beam wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> len at the bike nook in san francisco. closed on sundays. no fat
>>> tires. campy die-hard. quill stems. wool jerseys. della santa
>>> stockist. real old school. rides real fast.
>>>
>>
>> Like him alrteady. If he's grouchy, he's perfect.
>
>
> yes, he's perfect. wander in on a busy saturday & mention fat tires...
>
>> 'Expensive' to build a wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise.
>> We charge $45.
>
>
> istr something close to $100. i had no problem paying for quality,
> especially when after i'd bent one in a crash, he fixed it for free
> after 3 other shops had charged me various sums to tell me the rim was
> bent & the wheel was irrepairable.
>
>>
>> As for this thread, I can only speak for myself, where the three of us
>> build about 500 wheels per year, sell almost no wheels built
>> elsewhere(1 pair of Cosmic Carbones this year). We do so well cuz so
>> many wheels that are either supplied on their bikes or that come from
>> manufacturers are so poor.
>
>
> do you get to play with other people's "hand built" wheels very often?
> some are truly disgusting. last summer i rode with a guy that had paid
> over $500 for a pair of "hand built" ultegra/cxp21's. he had to ride
> with the brake calipers open... made you want to cry.

Yes we do and when we ask where they come from we know who built them if
they are in good shape. JB at Excel, Matt and ProPeloton, JIm, Sean and
I and Vecchio's...no others in Boulder.
>
>>
>> BUT there are few good wheelbuilders out there, too bad. Not a lot of
>> good tailors either.
>
>

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Peter Cole wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>
>>
>>>'Expensive' to build a
>>>wheel? How much $ to buid a wheel, labor wise. We charge $45.
>>
>>istr something close to $100. i had no problem paying for quality,
>>especially when after i'd bent one in a crash, he fixed it for free
>>after 3 other shops had charged me various sums to tell me the rim
>
> was
>
>>bent & the wheel was irrepairable.
>
>
> Wow. I bought a pair of Ultegra/Open Pro mail-order 4-5 years ago for
> $215, including 9-speed Ultegra cassette, tubes & tires. Build quality
> sucked, like most factory wheels, I evened & increased the tension,
> stress relieved and trued them. Many thousands of miles later, no
> problems. I've done the same thing with about a half-dozen other pairs
> of wheels. If you're not tone-deaf, it's not hard to get even and
> correct tension.

What is the tone for a 14g straight spoke? How about Whhelsmith 14/15?
DT? Even, perhaps, Correct tension?..BIG maybe.

Other than that, it's just learning how to true a
> wheel. It's not voodoo. Oh yeah, being 6'10"/235, finding ideal spoke
> tension is a bit more critical for me. I don't have a tensiometer or a
> truing stand, it's still not difficult.
>

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Peter Cole wrote:

>> Wow. I bought a pair of Ultegra/Open Pro mail-order 4-5 years ago for
>> $215, including 9-speed Ultegra cassette, tubes & tires. Build quality
>> sucked, like most factory wheels, I evened & increased the tension,
>> stress relieved and trued them. Many thousands of miles later, no
>> problems. I've done the same thing with about a half-dozen other pairs
>> of wheels. If you're not tone-deaf, it's not hard to get even and
>> correct tension.
>
Peter Chisholm asked:
>
> What is the tone for a 14g straight spoke?

G above middle C

> How about Whhelsmith 14/15? DT?

A above middle C

My good friend John Allen has an excellent article on this topic:

http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm

Sheldon "Pinnnnnnnnng" Brown
+-----------------------------------+
| A smoking section in a |
| restaurant is like a peeing |
| section in a swimming pool |
+-----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Peter Cole]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

>
> What is the tone for a 14g straight spoke? How about Whhelsmith
14/15?
> DT? Even, perhaps, Correct tension?..BIG maybe.

I use tone for relative tension, spin the wheel, striking spokes,
listen for high or low tones. For absolute tension, I prefer to bring
the tension up, ride the wheel & see if I get any spoke loosening, if
so, tighten all the way around a little. I do this until spokes stay
tight. This may be a bit laborious (actually not, really), but it gets
me to the minimum reliable tension. I do it this way because I find
that I don't have much range (with Mavic rims & my 235 lb weight,
anyway) between loosening spokes (too loose) and cracking rims (too
tight). So I locate the threshold empirically, something a LBS can't do
easily. I should add that this is mostly a rear wheel issue, front
wheels are trivial by comparison.

 

[Jose Rizal]

Peter Cole:

> I use tone for relative tension, spin the wheel, striking spokes,
> listen for high or low tones. For absolute tension, I prefer to bring
> the tension up, ride the wheel & see if I get any spoke loosening, if
> so, tighten all the way around a little.

How do you determine if spokes have loosened after riding? I don't
think you'll see any significant spoke loosening after riding
undertensioned spokes.

How do you determine if your spokes have too much tension?

> I do this until spokes stay
> tight. This may be a bit laborious (actually not, really), but it gets
> me to the minimum reliable tension. I do it this way because I find
> that I don't have much range (with Mavic rims & my 235 lb weight,
> anyway) between loosening spokes (too loose) and cracking rims (too
> tight). So I locate the threshold empirically, something a LBS can't do
> easily.

I don't think you're accomplishing what you believe you are. According
to the above, you determine whether your spokes have too much tension by
seeing if your rims crack, in which case you throw away your rims and
start from scratch. How many rims have you gone through to get the
"maximum reliable tension"? You also determine whether you have
undertensioned spokes by seeing if they "loosen" after riding; you can
have undertensioned spokes without seeing significant loosening of the
nipples after use. I suggest that the empirical value of tension you
put on your spokes is arbitrary, and is neither reliable nor a
threshold.

Now if you are using tone to achieve "optimum" tension, that's another
story.

 

[Peter Cole]

Jose Rizal wrote:
> Peter Cole:
>
> > I use tone for relative tension, spin the wheel, striking spokes,
> > listen for high or low tones. For absolute tension, I prefer to
bring
> > the tension up, ride the wheel & see if I get any spoke loosening,
if
> > so, tighten all the way around a little.
>
> How do you determine if spokes have loosened after riding? I don't
> think you'll see any significant spoke loosening after riding
> undertensioned spokes.

Of course you do, that's the whole problem with undertensioning. The
left spokes (being at a much lower tension) will start to unscrew. The
ratio of right/left tension is fixed by dish, so I set the minimum
tension on the left, which then sets the right to whatever it needs to
be for dish.

>
> How do you determine if your spokes have too much tension?
>
> > I do this until spokes stay
> > tight. This may be a bit laborious (actually not, really), but it
gets
> > me to the minimum reliable tension. I do it this way because I find
> > that I don't have much range (with Mavic rims & my 235 lb weight,
> > anyway) between loosening spokes (too loose) and cracking rims (too
> > tight). So I locate the threshold empirically, something a LBS
can't do
> > easily.
>
> I don't think you're accomplishing what you believe you are.
According
> to the above, you determine whether your spokes have too much tension
by
> seeing if your rims crack, in which case you throw away your rims and
> start from scratch. How many rims have you gone through to get the
> "maximum reliable tension"? You also determine whether you have
> undertensioned spokes by seeing if they "loosen" after riding; you
can
> have undertensioned spokes without seeing significant loosening of
the
> nipples after use. I suggest that the empirical value of tension you
> put on your spokes is arbitrary, and is neither reliable nor a
> threshold.
>
> Now if you are using tone to achieve "optimum" tension, that's
another
> story.

I think perhaps you should re-read my explanation, it really isn't that
hard to grasp.